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questioning eternal security

I am 80 and have been a fanatical eternal security teaching Baptist until 4 years ago and am now a Free Will Baptist.

The reason I changed was that ES Baptists totally ignore God's inspired Greek present participles behind "eth" and "es" verbs like "believe," "abide" and "overcome." It is wrong to change God's Word from a "continuous," or "habitual", or "regularly" meaning into a "one-time profession of faith" which requires a past-tense aorist verb. Greek teachers should be ashamed for allowing this to occur.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
If you believe a child of God can lose their eternal security, then based on Hebrews 6, you must hold they can never regain it.

As @JesusFan stated, Jesus stated quite plainly He would lose none given to Him by God the Father.

Peace to you
Paul confirmed that doctrine by the Holy Spirit indwelling/sealing us until second coming event, when we receive fulness of our salvation
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I am 80 and have been a fanatical eternal security teaching Baptist until 4 years ago and am now a Free Will Baptist.

The reason I changed was that ES Baptists totally ignore God's inspired Greek present participles behind "eth" and "es" verbs like "believe," "abide" and "overcome." It is wrong to change God's Word from a "continuous," or "habitual", or "regularly" meaning into a "one-time profession of faith" which requires a past-tense aorist verb. Greek teachers should be ashamed for allowing this to occur.
Russell. When you were an eternal security Baptist did you believe that once saved you would be saved even if you turned from the faith or did you believe that such a thing would not happen in a true believer. And now, do you believe that you would loose your salvation if you should deliberately turn from the faith in apostacy or do you believe you can mess up and not do enough and thus loose your salvation?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Russell. When you were an eternal security Baptist did you believe that once saved you would be saved even if you turned from the faith or did you believe that such a thing would not happen in a true believer. And now, do you believe that you would loose your salvation if you should deliberately turn from the faith in apostacy or do you believe you can mess up and not do enough and thus loose your salvation?
Jesus Himself stated that ALL whom His Father gave to Him shall ALL be saved, and since Jesus is God incarnate, let us trust in His words on this subject
 
Just believe in Lord Jesus own statement, as he declared that all who come unto Him he shall never cast out and away
You ignore the verb tenses of John 10:27. "My sheep are continually hearing my voice and I am continuously hearing them and they are continuously following me and I am continuously giving them eternal life." As long as Christ's sheep continuously listen to Him and continuously follow Him, He will continue to know them and give them eternal life! Salvation is conditional on continuous believing as 55 believe participles teach.
 
Russell. When you were an eternal security Baptist did you believe that once saved you would be saved even if you turned from the faith or did you believe that such a thing would not happen in a true believer. And now, do you believe that you would loose your salvation if you should deliberately turn from the faith in apostacy or do you believe you can mess up and not do enough and thus loose your salvation?
I believe that only continuous believers will have eternal life as the present participle in John 3:16 teaches; only continuous believers will become sons of God as John 1:12 teaches; only continuous believers will not be condemned as John 3:18 teaches, only continuous believers will be saved by the will of God as John 6:40 teaches; only continuous believers will have remission of sins as Acts 10:43 teaches, etc, etc, etc.
 
If you believe a child of God can lose their eternal security, then based on Hebrews 6, you must hold they can never regain it.

As @JesusFan stated, Jesus stated quite plainly He would lose none given to Him by God the Father.

Peace to you
Please give me your texts. Those who come to Jesus in John 17:20 are "continuously" coming per the present participle of come. It is the will of the Father to give to Jesus those who continuously come to Him per John 6:40.
 
Thus far, y'all have not commented on my main argument that the present participles of believe are being ignored. This is the same mistake I made. In First John 5:13 only those who continuously believe have the assurance of salvation. In First John 5:1 only those who continuously bellieve are born again, etc, etc.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I believe that only continuous believers will have eternal life as the present participle in John 3:16 teaches; only continuous believers will become sons of God as John 1:12 teaches; only continuous believers will not be condemned as John 3:18 teaches, only continuous believers will be saved by the will of God as John 6:40 teaches; only continuous believers will have remission of sins as Acts 10:43 teaches, etc, etc, etc.
This seems to be very close to the reformed view that true saints must persevere. Thus you have all the warnings against apostacy and all the calls to endeavor to live a holy life. And you have the warning that continuing in any known sin can result in damnation.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
You ignore the verb tenses of John 10:27. "My sheep are continually hearing my voice and I am continuously hearing them and they are continuously following me and I am continuously giving them eternal life." As long as Christ's sheep continuously listen to Him and continuously follow Him, He will continue to know them and give them eternal life! Salvation is conditional on continuous believing as 55 believe participles teach.
“My Sheep ARE continuously hearing My voice…”

Jesus DID NOT say, as you have added to the text, “as long as My Sheep are continuously listening ….. I will continue to know them and give them eternal life”

Your doctrine that salvation is “conditioned on continuous believing” is a work based salvation, which is simply untrue.

Salvation is conditioned on God, according to the kind intention of His will, making it happen, and then God keeping us sealed with His Holy Spirit as the down payment proof that that our faith in Jesus is truth.

And again, you have not addressed Hebrews 6. If you could fall away, it would be impossible to renew such a person to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again.

Do you agree with the Apostle Paul that to fall away you could never again achieve a right relationship with God.

Peace to you
 
“My Sheep ARE continuously hearing My voice…”

Jesus DID NOT say, as you have added to the text, “as long as My Sheep are continuously listening ….. I will continue to know them and give them eternal life”

Your doctrine that salvation is “conditioned on continuous believing” is a work based salvation, which is simply untrue.

Salvation is conditioned on God, according to the kind intention of His will, making it happen, and then God keeping us sealed with His Holy Spirit as the down payment proof that that our faith in Jesus is truth.

And again, you have not addressed Hebrews 6. If you could fall away, it would be impossible to renew such a person to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again.

Do you agree with the Apostle Paul that to fall away you could never again achieve a right relationship with God.

Peace to you
By fully translating the verbs in John 10:27, it literally reads: "My sheep are continuously hearing my voice and I am continuously knowing them and they are continuously following me and I am continuously giving them eternal life." These are all present tense verbs; they are not aorist "one-time professions of faith as you interpret them! The conditions are continuously hearing and continuously following.

Hebrews 6:4-6 literally teaches that one cannot be saved again once a person has been saved and rejected salvation. That is why there can only be one true baptism. I ask you to explain Matthew 5:29, 30 and John 15:6.

According to John 6:40, it is the will of God to save those who continuously believe. This is true to 54 other "believe" participles, especially Romans 4:5.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
At issue, is at what point, is
an individual actually saved by God? God, without a doubt, is going to keep those whom He as saved.
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
The conditions are continuously hearing and continuously following.

According to John 6:40, it is the will of God to save those who continuously believe.
Sooo......we have to be perfect? We cannot NOT hear, follow, or believe?

What about when my father died suddenly and I had a 5 to 10 second flicker of a doubt. The thought ran through my mind - "What if none of this that we believe is real - I'll never see my father again? I had stood there by his hospital bed and watched him draw his last breath.

It was just a flicker and the truth came back and I do not doubt at all. So did I lose my salvation?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Sooo......we have to be perfect? We cannot NOT hear, follow, or believe?

What about when my father died suddenly and I had a 5 to 10 second flicker of a doubt. The thought ran through my mind - "What if none of this that we believe is real - I'll never see my father again? I had stood there by his hospital bed and watched him draw his last breath.

It was just a flicker and the truth came back and I do not doubt at all. So did I lose my salvation?

No Christian can claim to have never had doubts. But I do not think that is what is meant in the biblical text. For me it means that even when those doubts surface we still hold too the truth. We know what our anchor point is.

That flicker of doubt shows you are human. Satan strikes us at our most vulnerable moment. Overcoming your doubt shows you are a child of God.

As your post clearly showed you continued to believe.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
When I was young, many years ago, we used to get into big theological arguments with my Church of Christ friends over someone who turns away from the faith. It always came down to them saying they truly turned away and us saying that they never were really true believers.

I have noticed over the years that some people seem to turn away and leave the faith. What their state was we can't really tell, no matter what our theology is on the subject. There is no comfort in the scripture for those who have lost interest, or return to a life of sin, or love the world, or even are self satisfied and lukewarm. There is a lot of comfort and encouragement for those who are afraid they have blown it do to sin or backsliding.

The last anti-Calvinist Baptist church I went to fell into the teaching that a one time decision was what you based all your assurance on. I have not found that to be satisfactory or scriptural. I know what Wesley said about this, and I know what the reformed Baptists and Puritans said. I would like to hear what the Freewill Baptists say on this. I hope @Russell Earl Kelly PHD keeps posting on this.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am 80 and have been a fanatical eternal security teaching Baptist until 4 years ago and am now a Free Will Baptist.

The reason I changed was that ES Baptists totally ignore God's inspired Greek present participles behind "eth" and "es" verbs like "believe," "abide" and "overcome." It is wrong to change God's Word from a "continuous," or "habitual", or "regularly" meaning into a "one-time profession of faith" which requires a past-tense aorist verb. Greek teachers should be ashamed for allowing this to occur.
Hi Russel, thanks for the excellent study question. Does the fact that those saved "continuously believe" mean we must "continually believe" in order to remain saved?

I say NO.

In Post #7, you address John 10:27, which has "hear" and "follow" in the present tense. I agree, those born anew sometime in their past are said to in the present still hear and follow, thus they continue their adherence to their faith in God.

Next, in post #8, you address John 3:16, which as "believes" or "is believing" as the condition of those who will not perish but have everlasting life.
Again, I agree, that is the characteristic of those who have become His sheep, born anew children of God.

Which brings us to post #9, and Jesus praying for those who believe because of His disciples word. I believe the idea extends past the present, and to everyone, such as me, who will believe in the future when viewed from the time of His prayer. Thus, the idea is at the time of being given to Christ, they will be, in that present time, believing, not had believed, or will believe.

Next you mention John 6:40 which as those who "behold the Son and believes (present tense) into Him will have everlasting life and will be raised on the last day. So once again we have some who is believing at the time of salvation and then continues be believe as solid doctrine.

Continuing with post 10, you address 1 John 5:13 which says those who are believing may know they have everlasting life. Here again we have the characteristic of those born anew of continuous belief or faith. In 1 John 5:1 we have those who are believing that Jesus is the Christ have been and are continuing to be born of God. We can, I believe reverse the logic ans conclude those born anew will continuous believe or have faith.

Next, post #11, you address Hebrews 6:4-6 with the apparent assumption those in view were born anew. I hold a different view. So setting that aside, let us continue with the characteristic of continuous belief or faith.

Finally you mention Romans 4:5 which says those who believe (present tense) on Him who justified, their faith is credited as righteousness. So again, when a person is believing, God takes action and subsequently, they continue to believe or have faith.

No one should dispute that analysis. However, if when a person is born anew, their faith is protected by the power of God, it would be impossible to anyone born anew to lose or destroy that faith.

Which brings me to my rebuttal (excepting Hebrews 6:4-6) of the contention that a born anew believer can somehow lose or destroy the faith they had when God credited it as righteousness. See 1 Peter 1:3-5. I believe when we are born anew, God protects our faith such that we will receive our inheritance, our salvation, our everlasting life.
 
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