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questioning eternal security

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I don’t need a lecture on the Bible from someone who believes many are saved having never heard the gospel.

And you are wrong. He is adding words to what Jesus said, literally.

Peace to you

Get over yourself @canadyjd. You must need someone to point the obvious as you seem to be upset and accuse him of adding words.

You still do not believe that God is actually sovereign. He can do as He chooses but you think He can only do as you say He can. OH the arrogance we see.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I believe that those who truly believe in the first place (and do not believe in vain) will continue to believe. Those who hold fast to the gospel/continue in the faith demonstrate that faith was firmly rooted and established from the start and they truly were saved. Those who fail to continue demonstrate otherwise.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing large groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

I am astounded that someone would think they can make such pronouncements. Did a man loose his free will when he trusted in God,no. Does God respect the choices that man makes yes.

If the man can choose to follow God he can also choose to reject Him.

If man cannot fall away from God then you have to wonder why all the warning passages.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Except for your last two statements, you sound like an Arminian. Which texts teach that removes free will and "protects" faith? The doctrtine teaches that one can deny Christ, never worship Him again and remain saved. I taught it for almost 60 years. You keep calling the presnet participles present tense when the participles mean much more. Look at John 6:37 again. "Come" is "continuously coming. In verses 35 and 40 "believeth" is "continuously believing." Again, John 6:40 teaches that it is God's will to save those who "keep on believing."
I am sorry, but I did not say "God removes free will and protects faith."

I cited the passage that says God protects our inheritance of eternal life through faith.

I do say once saved (born anew) we will always believe in Jesus, even when we stumble and fail to follow Him, and also once saved, always saved.

A person who professes salvation then "can deny Christ" was never saved, according to my understanding of scripture.

Your view of John 6:37 is nonsense. The verse is not discussing coming to faith and maintaining that faith. It is discussing redemption, being given (transferred spiritually into) Christ, arriving therefore within Christ's spiritual body, and Christ saying once in, will not be cast out.

BTW, I am a one point Calvinist (once saved, always saved) and a two point Arminian (Christ died for all humanity and our individual election for salvation is conditional, based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.)
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John 6:37 NKJV
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

This verse says all the individuals the Father "gives" to Christ will come or arrive and the one who "comes" to Me I will not cast out. Therefore a change in location (not in Christ to being "in Christ) is the idea. This is inescapable because the result is Christ will not cast them out.

 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
John 6:37 NKJV
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

This verse says all the individuals the Father "gives" to Christ will come or arrive and the one who "comes" to Me I will not cast out. Therefore a change in location (not in Christ to being "in Christ) is the idea. This is inescapable because the result is Christ will not cast them out.
God chose us from eternity past to be found in Christ, not us deciding for Him first
 

MMDAN

Member
I am astounded that someone would think they can make such pronouncements. Did a man loose his free will when he trusted in God,no. Does God respect the choices that man makes yes. If the man can choose to follow God he can also choose to reject Him.

If man cannot fall away from God then you have to wonder why all the warning passages.
Believers do not lose their free will but at the same time we are new creations in Christ and have been made partakers of the divine nature. (2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Peter 1:4) We have been changed. Praise God! There are warnings about falling away because there are genuine Christians and "nominal" Christians mixed together throughout Scripture. (Matthew 7:15-23; 13:24-30; John 6:60-64; Acts 20:29-31; Hebrews 4:1-3; 10:39; 1 John 2:19 etc..).
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Believers do not lose their free will but at the same time we are new creations in Christ and have been made partakers of the divine nature. (2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Peter 1:4) We have been changed. Praise God! There are warnings about falling away because there are genuine Christians and "nominal" Christians mixed together throughout Scripture. (Matthew 7:15-23; 13:24-30; John 6:60-64; Acts 20:29-31; Hebrews 4:1-3; 10:39; 1 John 2:19 etc..).

You are reading into the text what you want to find.

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

To make the assumption that those that fall away were never true believers is indeed to read into the text what is not there. Logically one cannot fall away from a position they have never held. Reality shows us that numbers do fall away.
Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,

Paul is clearly writing to Christians and warning them of the real possibility of falling away.

While I agree that we will find "nominal" Christians mixed together throughout the church you make a leap when you say that all those that fall away had to be such.
 

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Scripture plainly teaches that those who are true believers will continue with us and those who are not true believers will not continue with us so that they will be made manifest that they never were "of us," that is, true believers.

When God grants eternal life to a human being who truly believes, that is exactly what that person receives--eternal life. The person who once truly believes will never ever perish eternally--he is forever saved and can never lose his salvation. If he could lose it, it never was eternal life that God granted him.
 

MMDAN

Member
You are reading into the text what you want to find.
No, I prefer exegesis over eisegesis. We need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (reminds me of Roman Catholicism) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. The faith in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians/superficial believers will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they had saving faith in Christ and were previously born again. (1 John 2:19)
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. In context, going back to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) Confidence is rooted in the sacrificial death and blood of Jesus, yet those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39) demonstrate a lack of full confidence which culminates in a lack of perseverance.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
Those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
To make the assumption that those that fall away were never true believers is indeed to read into the text what is not there. Logically one cannot fall away from a position they have never held. Reality shows us that numbers do fall away.
Well then show me the specific words "lose or lost salvation" in scripture or perhaps the words UN-regenerated or UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit. That would be conclusive proof for your argument. One can fall away from a position they professed to hold after considering the truth for a time, then a hardened heart and departure from God became their final answer. Such people were exposed to the truth and may have even been on the verge of embracing the truth, but they chose to permanently fall away instead. We see this throughout the book of Hebrews. (Hebrews 3:6-14; 4:1-11; 6:4-9; 10:26-39; 12:15) I may decide that I'm going to walk across the Brooklyn bridge and walk right up to the bridge and just before I take one step onto the bridge turn away and depart from the bridge. I don't actually need to be on the bridge in order to depart from it.
Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,
The word "IF" in Colossians 1:23, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with. Failing to continue demonstrates otherwise.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).
Paul is clearly writing to Christians and warning them of the real possibility of falling away.
All the letters in the NT are written to Christians, but that does not mean that everyone in these large groups of professing Christians are all genuine Christians. Once again, it makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate that they are genuine believers. Those who fail to continue demonstrate otherwise.
While I agree that we will find "nominal" Christians mixed together throughout the church you make a leap when you say that all those that fall away had to be such.
Nominal Christians outnumber genuine Christians by far in the "professing" Christian world. If you attended a very large church on Sunday and the Pastor greeted the congregation that morning with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that everyone who attended church that Sunday morning must be a genuine brother or sister in Christ because of that greeting? The Bible talks about wheat and tares and the tares outnumber the wheat.

Again, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are superficial believers mixed together throughout the Bible, throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites. If a genuine born-again Christian could lose their salvation, then these verses would be a lie, God forbid. (Psalm 37:28; Proverbs 24:16; John 5:24; John 6:37-39; John 10:27-29; Romans 8:30-39; 11:29; 1 Corinthians 1:13-14; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 10:10, 14; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Jude 1:1, 24-25)
 
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JesusFan

Well-Known Member
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Scripture plainly teaches that those who are true believers will continue with us and those who are not true believers will not continue with us so that they will be made manifest that they never were "of us," that is, true believers.

When God grants eternal life to a human being who truly believes, that is exactly what that person receives--eternal life. The person who once truly believes will never ever perish eternally--he is forever saved and can never lose his salvation. If he could lose it, it never was eternal life that God granted him.
Must read Hebrews in the context of a community gathering assembly, as author wants to make very sure that during hard times for the church, those who profess to Know Jesus actually will confirm and prove it by preserving unto very end, and if they turn aside, were never really one of his own, but a goat acting as a sheep for awhile
 
IMO, you can't logically embrace eternal security without fully embracing Calvinism.
Calvinism takes faith out of the equation. Eternal security takes faith out at the moment one accepts Christ. Arminianism taches that one is saved by grace through continuous faith (the present participle in Romans 4:5) and believers have the assurance of salvation because they maintain that kind of faith (the participle in 1 John 5:13).
 
No, I prefer exegesis over eisegesis. We need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (reminds me of Roman Catholicism) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. The faith in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians/superficial believers will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they had saving faith in Christ and were previously born again. (1 John 2:19)

Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. In context, going back to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) Confidence is rooted in the sacrificial death and blood of Jesus, yet those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39) demonstrate a lack of full confidence which culminates in a lack of perseverance.

Those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Well then show me the specific words "lose or lost salvation" in scripture or perhaps the words UN-regenerated or UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit. That would be conclusive proof for your argument. One can fall away from a position they professed to hold after considering the truth for a time, then a hardened heart and departure from God became their final answer. Such people were exposed to the truth and may have even been on the verge of embracing the truth, but they chose to permanently fall away instead. We see this throughout the book of Hebrews. (Hebrews 3:6-14; 4:1-11; 6:4-9; 10:26-39; 12:15) I may decide that I'm going to walk across the Brooklyn bridge and walk right up to the bridge and just before I take one step onto the bridge turn away and depart from the bridge. I don't actually need to be on the bridge in order to depart from it.

The word "IF" in Colossians 1:23, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with. Failing to continue demonstrates otherwise.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

All the letters in the NT are written to Christians, but that does not mean that everyone in these large groups of professing Christians are all genuine Christians. Once again, it makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate that they are genuine believers. Those who fail to continue demonstrate otherwise.

Nominal Christians outnumber genuine Christians by far in the "professing" Christian world. If you attended a very large church on Sunday and the Pastor greeted the congregation that morning with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that everyone who attended church that Sunday morning must be a genuine brother or sister in Christ because of that greeting? The Bible talks about wheat and tares and the tares outnumber the wheat.

Again, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are superficial believers mixed together throughout the Bible, throughout various churches and throughout various Christian forum sites. If a genuine born-again Christian could lose their salvation, then these verses would be a lie, God forbid. (Psalm 37:28; Proverbs 24:16; John 5:24; John 6:37-39; John 10:27-29; Romans 8:30-39; 11:29; 1 Corinthians 1:13-14; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 10:10, 14; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Jude 1:1, 24-25)
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

We should discuss each and every one of your proof texts, plusproof text which can be interpreted the opposite direction. Everybody is ignoring the prsent participles because they teach conditional salvation. Why does Jesus say that saved persons caught in habitual sin can go to hell in Mt 5:29-30? He was not speaking to the lost.
 

MMDAN

Member
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

We should discuss each and every one of your proof texts, plusproof text which can be interpreted the opposite direction. Everybody is ignoring the prsent participles because they teach conditional salvation. Why does Jesus say that saved persons caught in habitual sin can go to hell in Mt 5:29-30? He was not speaking to the lost.
Present participles confirm what I said about genuine faith continuing vs. a shallow or spurious faith that does not continue. In regard to Matthew 5:29-30, Jesus' audience was primarily Jewish and He was bringing things to light for those who looked to the law and the prophets.

Jesus was not literally encouraging self mutilation but was using this graphic hyperbole to express the seriousness of sin and it's consequences. Apart from the grace of God and the blood of Christ we would all die in our sins. (Roman's 3:23-28; 6:23; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8,9)

Jesus is not saying here that saved persons habitually sin and go to hell which would contradict what John said in (1 John 3:7-10).
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I feel betrayed by the very theology I once fanatically loved. Present participles are on every page of the New Testament but are covered up and treated like past-tense one-time professions of faith.
If the theology you once loved is Reformed theology then you will know that it does not speak of "once saved, always saved," but "the perseverance of the saints." This comes from Matthew 24:13, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." I think the Reformers and Puritans would be astonished at your diatribe against Reformed theology.
Also, the continuous nature of the Present Tense in Greek is no mystery to anyone who has a smattering of that language, whether Reformed or otherwise.
May I draw your attention to a few texts?

Matt. 7: 22-23. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'"
Christ never knew these people; He did not know them once and then forget about them.

1 John 2:19. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest that none of them were of us.'
Those who depart permanently from the faith were never Christ's.

John 10:27-28. "My sheep hear [present tense] My voice, and I know [present tense] them, and they follow [present tense] Me, and they follow [present tense] Me, and I give [present tense] them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
Who are those to whom the Lord Jesus gives eternal life? His sheep. They do not become His sheep by believing; they believe because they are His sheep. How do I know that? Our Lord tells us in v.26. "But you do not [present tense] believe because you are not [present tense] of My sheep, as I said to you." He does not say, "But you are not of My sheep because you do not believe." Christ's sheep are a special breed; they are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They are hearing the Shepherds voice, and they are following Him. If they cease permanently to hear His voice and follow Him, that is proof positive that they were never His sheep. A sheep may stray for a time, and the Good Shepherd will leave the ninety and nine other sheep on the hillside and go and recover the lost one (Luke 15:4-7), but one who permanently departs was never one of the flock.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am 80 and have been a fanatical eternal security teaching Baptist until 4 years ago and am now a Free Will Baptist.

The reason I changed was that ES Baptists totally ignore God's inspired Greek present participles behind "eth" and "es" verbs like "believe," "abide" and "overcome." It is wrong to change God's Word from a "continuous," or "habitual", or "regularly" meaning into a "one-time profession of faith" which requires a past-tense aorist verb. Greek teachers should be ashamed for allowing this to occur.
I read through the thread and saw that no one has answered your points from the Greek, so I will. (Full disclosure: I am a Greek prof.) The "continuous" thing you are talking about is called verbal aspect, or "the view of the action that the speaker chooses to present to the hearer" (David Alan Black, Learn to Read New Testament Greek, p. 14). Aspect is a little different from aktionsart, which is the "kind of action" the verb represents. Black teaches that the present tense (including the participles) can be either aoristic (one time only) or imperfective (continuous) in aspect. When you interpret all Greek present participles as being continuous, you are mistaken. They can also represent one time action. Black says, "The present is basically imperfective ('I am loving'), though it may also be aoristic ('I love')" (p. 15). (There is also perfective aspect in Black's scheme.)

I see that you are 80, so I must say you probably took Greek (if you did) many years ago as I did. The older textbooks don't usually get into verbal aspect very well; they don't even use that terminology. The scholarship took place after the textbooks I was taught from back in the day: Machen (1923), Dana and Mantey (1927), A. T. Robertson (1934), Davis (1923). Those guys, though those were the standard texts when you and I were young. (I'm 73.) But Greek scholarship has come a long way since then.

Concerning the present participle, you should know that the participle is a verbal adjective. Thus it yields to the main verb. "While participles do not designate absolute time, the tie of the participle is relative to the time of the main verb. The imperfective participle (the present participle--JoJ) indicates an action occurring at the same time as the main verb" (William Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek, p. 289).
 
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John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thus far, y'all have not commented on my main argument that the present participles of believe are being ignored. This is the same mistake I made. In First John 5:13 only those who continuously believe have the assurance of salvation. In First John 5:1 only those who continuously bellieve are born again, etc, etc.
Just because someone was saved in the past when they believed, does not mean that somehow they stopped believing. I believed in Jesus Christ when I was saved, and I still am continuously believing in Him. That verse does not prove you can lose your salvation in any way, shape or form.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You ignore the verb tenses of John 10:27. "My sheep are continually hearing my voice and I am continuously hearing them and they are continuously following me and I am continuously giving them eternal life." As long as Christ's sheep continuously listen to Him and continuously follow Him, He will continue to know them and give them eternal life! Salvation is conditional on continuous believing as 55 believe participles teach.
The verb tenses of John 10:27 are all present active indicative. They are not participles. According to verbal aspect, the present active indicative can be either aoristic aspect (one time only) or imperfective (continually) aspect. You have gone a bridge too far in your interpretation.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Just because someone was saved in the past when they believed, does not mean that somehow they stopped believing. I believed in Jesus Christ when I was saved, and I still am continuously believing in Him. That verse does not prove you can lose your salvation in any way, shape or form.
I agree and I would value your input on this. How would you explain what seems to happen occasionally where people seem to leave the faith, even after seeming to be saved and in some prominent and public cases, seeming to be greatly used in ministry for a long time? I tend to agree with the explanation @Martin Marprelate gave above. I came from a IFB background and some of those churches, and some of the evangelical churches in the US at least seemed to drift into a kind of easy believism where once you were save it didn't matter what you did later, you simply were saved, and living a Christian life, or avoiding sin, was a good but not essential option.

I'm familiar with free grace theology and I know guys like Charles Ryrie were into that and maybe helped cause some of the drift I mentioned. But yet I know for a fact that many of the guys supporting that theology were exemplary in their Christian walk. In fact, some theologians say that nothing will encourage a true believer more to live a holy life than a full knowledge that he's forgiven unconditionally. Maybe I answered my own question but it just seems to me that in practice, what Russell is saying is much like the Puritan view, even though the theology that it is derived from is different. In other words, being concerned about the validity of your salvation or even your election might have the same practical result in a Christians life as being worried that you might begin to drift into sin and then turn away thus losing your salvation, which you would think about being a free will Baptist or a Wesleyan.
 
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