Questions for Calvinists

[Moriah]

To Earth, Wind, and Fire,
I would like to help explain to you the scriptures that you use for a signature.

You attempt to use Jeremiah 13:23 to support your false doctrines from Calvin. Jeremiah 23 says, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spot? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Not all people are accustomed to doing evil. Jeremiah 13:23 is not about every single person who ever lived. You do as your leaders do. You consistently hammer how evil people are, Paul Washer is a good example, and Calvinists do this to people Jesus already saved. Who are you working for, the accuser of the brothers? Satan is the accuser of the brothers.

In addition, you also do not understand John 6:38-9, 44. Calvinists teach the false doctrine that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who hate Him, to make people believe, and to cause them to repent. However, the Word of God says He gives His Holy Spirit to those who love Him and obey. See John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.. We receive the Holy Spirit after we repent. Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD. Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

The Old Testament believers in God were God’s people. Not all Old Testament Jews were true believers. The people who did love and believe in God, God gave them to Jesus. God’s people who loved and believed in Him, they now had to go through Jesus in faith to continue with God... They are the people who God enabled to come to Jesus during Jesus’ ministry on earth. The Jews who did not truly believe in God, God hardened them so they were not able to come to Jesus. The people who are drawn to Jesus, they are drawn because they are all ready believers in God the Father.

The people, the Jews, who loved and believed in God, they recognized what Jesus said as God’s word, and in this, they are drawn. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 6:44, 45 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. Did you see that? Jesus says, "Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."
Did you see that in the last sentence where Jesus says “Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me”? THAT is why they come to Jesus, because they recognize what Jesus says as God's word!

The people were already God’s, now they would become Jesus’ people. Those who did not believe in God, they were hardened. God did not allow them to come to Jesus. Only a remnant, the lost sheep of Israel would come to Jesus (Matthew 10:6; 15:24). John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. See also, John 3:37, 39; 6:65; 10:28; 15:21-24; 16:3; 17:2, 9, 24; Romans 11:4, 5, 7; Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40. John 8:19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?” "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To Earth, Wind, and Fire,
I would like to help explain to you the scriptures that you use for a signature.

You attempt to use Jeremiah 13:23 to support your false doctrines from Calvin. STOP RIGHT THERE BLOW HARD!

Like I said.....when you start a conversation as if your a superior know it all, I will shut you down every time. In addition to NOT reading your post, I am putting you on notice that your anathema to me & you will be blocked from this day forward via the IGNORE feature. Bye Bye

 

[Moriah]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire View Post
To Earth, Wind, and Fire,
I would like to help explain to you the scriptures that you use for a signature.

You attempt to use Jeremiah 13:23 to support your false doctrines from Calvin. STOP RIGHT THERE BLOW HARD!
Like I said.....when you start a conversation as if your a superior know it all, I will shut you down every time. In addition to NOT reading your post, I am putting you on notice that your anathema to me & you will be blocked from this day forward via the IGNORE feature. Bye Bye

Oh really....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Who set you up as God's other son? :tongue3:

What’s the matter EWF, no more laughing and tongue sticking at me?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is a wonderful feature......here is all you see

This message is hidden because Moriah is on your ignore list. :laugh:

 

[Moriah]

This is a wonderful feature......here is all you see

This message is hidden because Moriah is on your ignore list. :laugh:

We all know you're peeking. lol

 

[Iconoclast]

I have a powerful testimony. Jesus Christ Himself saved me.

Jesus saves everyone who is saved

I will take my time to try to explain to you, so that you might not do the devil’s work anymore. That is my hope for you. :laugh:

In John 3:5, Jesus says no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

yes,a person must be born from above

....first...or he cannot see the kingdom, and yet this is another post where you skip over the Spirit and His work

None can enter the kingdom until one believes and repents first. I take you to Matthew 4 that is where the Lord tells us this fact. Jesus says to repent, because the kingdom of heaven is near. They are not in the kingdom and born again with the Spirit yet, because the kingdom of heaven is not within them yet, no, it is only “near.” Do you not understand that?

Yes...I understand that unless and until the Spirit gives a new heart,,,,they cannot enter

Many scriptures tell us people believed first BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit. Here are scriptures for you to consider carefully…

Acts is a transitional book....there were many OT believers who were not in the Nt yet! To try and build your false idea on this passage is obviously a mistake....yet that will not stop you. Do you see how your continued failure to understand Jn 3 is leading you to consistently come to wrong ideas? I suspect it does not...but I would offer that you should consider this

Some people had a baptism, but their baptism was only with John's baptism. Remember, John's baptism was not with the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Some never even heard about the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit moved upon believers in the OT. Anyone who believed in the promises to come was saved by the Spirit of God.
in the Nt believers are indwelt by the Spirit, he works in the unseen realm allowing a person to be drawn savingly to repent and believe...No one does this unless and until the Spirit works...as we know that no one seeks God, no not one....Jesus seeks and saves.....read ezk34,lk 19, jn 10...Jesus seeks and saves! maybe one day you will look back at this thread and see the truth in these verses:godisgood:[/QUOTE]
Acts 19:1-5 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Did you see that what Paul said? Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit WHEN THEY BELIEVED.
From this passage, one can also see that they repented BEFORE having the Holy Spirit. In addition, one can see that the Holy Spirit was not given until when they believed, and not before to make them believe. Paul does NOT say, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit then believe,” nor did he say, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit so that you could believe.”

You and Calvinists teach that one has the Holy Spirit BEFORE they REPENT, but I have just shown you two scriptures now that show repenting is BEFORE they receive the Holy Spirit.

The fact that they did not understand the Nt truth about Jesus and the cross shows they were ot believers...so the Apostles know they have not yet been indwelt...a transition must take place...as soon as Nt truth is presented to them,The Spirit allows them to believe

Now here is the third scripture to show you that one is to repent BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit. Remember, we cannot be born again until after, or when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In this next passage, we see that even after the people accepted the word of God, God did not yet give them the Holy Spirit, not until after Peter and John prayed for them to have the Holy Spirit and placed their hands on them. So you see, they could not of been born again without yet having the Holy Spirit.

Yes...exactly...they needed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...that is what i am saying to you...maybe you are starting to see it now:thumbs:

Do you not know that one must have the Holy Spirit living in them, and that is when the kingdom of heaven will be WITHIN them? Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Yes...now you are getting it!

You do not get the kingdom of heaven unless you have the Spirit, and if you do not have the Spirit, then you are not born again.

Yes,,, a person must be born again...exactly![/QUOTE]


You do not get the Spirit until you believe and repent. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say God gives His Spirit to make us believe, or to make us repent.

Wrong..completely backwards...you were doing well...but now you confuse and contradict yourself...you want to believe both sides now....Saving faith, repented ,and believing the gospel happens similtaneously when God quickens a dead sinner...
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

see how it actually happens...the unseen work of the Spirit...if they could believe and repent savingly...who would need to be quickened? it would have no purpose...Jesus did not wait for Lazuras to come forth by himself, then give him life....you make no sense moriah

You call it jumping to Matthew 4, but I take you to what the Lord says in Matthew 4 so that you can see the answer, then I even explained it to you, but you still do not understand.

If Jesus already saved them, gave them His Spirit, and caused them to be born again, then they would already have the kingdom of heaven.

If they had the Spirit they would already have repented and believed....he tells them to repent, because they are yet unsaved and need the Spirit

However, they must repent first before that. THAT is what Jesus says. You cannot grasp that Truth.

I grasp the biblical truth just fine my friend , and hopefully you will do the same

We receive all the things from the Father, after we believe and repent. Show one scripture that says God gives us the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe and repent. You will not find any such scripture because you believe in what man added and took away from God’s Word. This is a frightening fact. More frightening for you since you have been shown the truth but reject it and go against it.

Why does God give the Spirit in your scheme? What does the Spirit do...if the people already have repented and believed with out the new birth??[/QUOTE]

When you chatted with ewf ..you said satan is the accuser of the brethren...then you say christians are doing satans work....interesting

 

[Moriah]

Iconoclast,
You are putting your replies to me in the quotes, making it impossible for me to use the quote option. Are you doing this on purpose? I must open another window and copy and paste just to reply to your comments.

yes,a person must be born from above
....first...or he cannot see the kingdom, and yet this is another post where you skip over the Spirit and His work

Calvinists say a person must be born again before they can repent. I have shown you many scriptures telling us people repented first before receiving the Holy Spirit, AND, not all were Old Testament believers.

Yes...I understand that unless and until the Spirit gives a new heart,,,,they cannot enter

Nowhere do the scriptures say God gives a new heart to unbelievers. God gives a new heart to those who believe in Him and WANT to obey. Isaiah 64:5 says there are those who gladly do right and remember His ways, but they could not stop sinning.

Acts is a transitional book....there were many OT believers who were not in the Nt yet! To try and build your false idea on this passage is obviously a mistake....yet that will not stop you. Do you see how your continued failure to understand Jn 3 is leading you to consistently come to wrong ideas? I suspect it does not...but I would offer that you should consider this

Calvinists say we are all born again first by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then we can believe and repent. However, the Old Testament believers did not receive the Holy Spirit until LATER, as you say so yourself.

John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The Holy Spirit moved upon believers in the OT. Anyone who believed in the promises to come was saved by the Spirit of God.
in the Nt believers are indwelt by the Spirit, he works in the unseen realm allowing a person to be drawn savingly to repent and believe...No one does this unless and until the Spirit works...as we know that no one seeks God, no not one....Jesus seeks and saves.....read ezk34,lk 19, jn 10...Jesus seeks and saves! maybe one day you will look back at this thread and see the truth in these verse

You try to say that the passages I gave showing the Old Testament believers repented before being indwelt with the Holy Spirit was because they were Old Testament believers; HOWEVER, I also gave you scripture showing New Testament GENTILES repenting before being indwelt with the Holy Spirit!
Again, you forget that you said no one can repent unless they are born again!
John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The fact that they did not understand the Nt truth about Jesus and the cross shows they were ot believers...so the Apostles know they have not yet been indwelt...a transition must take place...as soon as Nt truth is presented to them,The Spirit allows them to believe. Yes...exactly...they needed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...that is what i am saying to you...maybe you are starting to see it now.

You prove right there that you speak nothing but contradictions and confusion. You say no one can even believe without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you want to explain again how the Old Testament believers were saved. They did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit yet.

THEY REPENTED BEFORE THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! THEY BELIEVED IN JESUS BEFORE THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Saving faith, repented ,and believing the gospel happens similtaneously when God quickens a dead sinner...
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Which is it, no one can believe unless they are already saved, or, God quickens some to believe first, AND THEN gives them His Spirit to make them born again? In addition, why are you acting as if the word 'quicken' is different than being given the Holy Spirit to indwell in us? You change the scenario as you go along! NOWHERE do the scriptures say God caused us to believe in Him, NOWHERE.

see how it actually happens...the unseen work of the Spirit...if they could believe and repent savingly...who would need to be quickened? it would have no purpose...Jesus did not wait for Lazuras to come forth by himself, then give him life....you make no sense moriah

We receive the Holy Spirit AFTER we BELIEVE and OBEY.

As for Lazarus, how do you ever get that you can use that passage to prove Calvinism? God can raise children out of rocks. God will raise ALL people at the resurrection, the righteous, and the WICKED. How do you think God raising the physically dead Lazarus to life proves Calvinism? It is too serious to laugh about, though how ridiculous your leaders’ arguments are, and you fell for them. We are not physically dead! We have ears to hear with, and eyes to see. Those who do not see and hear, it is because they love darkness instead of light, because their deeds are evil.

Why does God give the Spirit in your scheme? What does the Spirit do...if the people already have repented and believed with out the new birth??

God gives us His Spirit for many things; however, a detailed reason might be for another thread. For this thread, God gives the Spirit to those who love Him and want to obey, but they cannot stop sinning.

 

[billwald]

>Not all Old Testament Jews were true believers.

Not all people who invite Jesus into their hearts and are subsequently baptized and think they are true believers are true believers.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,
You are putting your replies to me in the quotes, making it impossible for me to use the quote option. Are you doing this on purpose? I must open another window and copy and paste just to reply to your comments.



Calvinists say a person must be born again before they can repent. I have shown you many scriptures telling us people repented first before receiving the Holy Spirit, AND, not all were Old Testament believers.



Nowhere do the scriptures say God gives a new heart to unbelievers. God gives a new heart to those who believe in Him and WANT to obey. Isaiah 64:5 says there are those who gladly do right and remember His ways, but they could not stop sinning.



Calvinists say we are all born again first by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then we can believe and repent. However, the Old Testament believers did not receive the Holy Spirit until LATER, as you say so yourself.

John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.



You try to say that the passages I gave showing the Old Testament believers repented before being indwelt with the Holy Spirit was because they were Old Testament believers; HOWEVER, I also gave you scripture showing New Testament GENTILES repenting before being indwelt with the Holy Spirit!
Again, you forget that you said no one can repent unless they are born again!
John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.





You prove right there that you speak nothing but contradictions and confusion. You say no one can even believe without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you want to explain again how the Old Testament believers were saved. They did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit yet.

THEY REPENTED BEFORE THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! THEY BELIEVED IN JESUS BEFORE THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!





Which is it, no one can believe unless they are already saved, or, God quickens some to believe first, AND THEN gives them His Spirit to make them born again? In addition, why are you acting as if the word 'quicken' is different than being given the Holy Spirit to indwell in us? You change the scenario as you go along! NOWHERE do the scriptures say God caused us to believe in Him, NOWHERE.




We receive the Holy Spirit AFTER we BELIEVE and OBEY.

As for Lazarus, how do you ever get that you can use that passage to prove Calvinism? God can raise children out of rocks. God will raise ALL people at the resurrection, the righteous, and the WICKED. How do you think God raising the physically dead Lazarus to life proves Calvinism? It is too serious to laugh about, though how ridiculous your leaders’ arguments are, and you fell for them. We are not physically dead! We have ears to hear with, and eyes to see. Those who do not see and hear, it is because they love darkness instead of light, because their deeds are evil.



God gives us His Spirit for many things; however, a detailed reason might be for another thread. For this thread, God gives the Spirit to those who love Him and want to obey, but they cannot stop sinning.

Sorry you cannot receive help at this time....maybe as you continue to study you will understand. You are not really following the discussion well.
The apostles could come and speak to you and you would tell them they did not understand.....:laugh::laugh: You do not yet understand jn 3...start there:thumbs:
here is an example...you posted this ;

where do the scriptures say God gives a new heart to unbelievers

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Everyone knows this verse...and yet you say the bible does not say this.
Sorry I cannot take you serious...when you post so foolishly




Wall Photos

 

[Moriah]

Sorry you cannot receive help at this time....maybe as you continue to study you will understand. You are not really following the discussion well.
The apostles could come and speak to you and you would tell them they did not understand..... You do not yet understand jn 3...start there:
here is an example...you posted this




Everyone knows this verse...and yet you say the bible does not say this.
Sorry I cannot take you serious...when you post so foolishly

Where do the scriptures say God gives a new heart to unbelievers? God says he will give a new heart to ”his people.“ The Jews were God's people, and they believed in Him. The Jews were not unbelievers, they were believers. So how do you get that you can say what you did to me?

Ezekiel 36:19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries: I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD'S people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

Do you still think God was talking about unbelievers?

Ezekiel 39:21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflect and the hand I lay upon them. 22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

Again, I ask you, does it sound like God was talking about believers in Him, or unbelievers? God does not give His Spirit to unbelievers. What scripture says that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Everyone knows this verse...and yet you say the bible does not say this.

Iconclast,

Let us look at the verse again:

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ezek.36:26).

Here we read that a new spirit will be put within them. No one can understand the things of God until they receive the Spirit which is of God:

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:10-12).

Here Paul asks a rhetorical question where he is telling us exactly how a person receives the Spirit:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).

The Calvinists teach that the Spirit is received prior to believing but the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that it is received by believing. That is why no one is regenerated (receiving life) until he believes:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

The Calvinists teach that this new life or birth comes before faith but John makes it pain that it comes as a result of believing.

 

[billwald]

Which of you got saved because you were smarter than those do don't get saved?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconclast,

Let us look at the verse again:

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ezek.36:26).

Here we read that a new spirit will be put within them. No one can understand the things of God until they receive the Spirit which is of God:

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:10-12).

Here Paul asks a rhetorical question where he is telling us exactly how a person receives the Spirit:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).

The Calvinists teach that the Spirit is received prior to believing but the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that it is received by believing. That is why no one is regenerated (receiving life) until he believes:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

The Calvinists teach that this new life or birth comes before faith but John makes it pain that it comes as a result of believing.

Hello Jerry,

The Calvinists teach that this new life or birth comes before faith but John makes it pain that it comes as a result of believing

Almost every calvinist I know or have read...believes this all happens at the exact same time.

What the bible clearly teaches is that God will cause ,or enable dead sinners to believe...

Jerry...we can agree and believe this;
all men are sinners
sinners need a new birth
sinners need to repent
sinners need to believe
sinners need to obey

Jesus saves many sinners, there is no other way sinners can become saved.

sinners who God saves....do not save themself....salvation is of the Lord.

What calvinism teaches is that dead sinners......are dead spiritually
They died in Adam.....they can be religious, invent their own religion,invent their own god, invent their own gospel,........but they hold down or suppress the true knowledge of God......they hear ,or read the truth....but because of sinful self will...they suppress the truth

How do they suppress the truth???

They sinfully give God's word meaning that God has not given to it.
The re-define sin........

sin is not sin......it is a mistake, or a poor choice
a drunkard is not a drunk and in sin.......he is sick, and an "alcoholic"

a thief is not a thief......he "suffers" from the disease of cleptomania.

a sodomite is not a pervert........he has an "alternate" lifestyle

fornicating movie stars and athletes are not sexual sinners....they have a "sex addiction"

So why should it come as a surprise the when God's sovereignty and electing love is presented....men do not want it....they do not like being told that God is God and they are not.
man seeks to bring God down.....which is not possible.

Jerry......many of us were saved from very sinful lives.... We know that God has done a great work in restoring us to our "right minds"

before we go back and forth ...do me a favor.....
Read ezk 34 ...verse by verse.....see how many times God says...I will.....then look and see if it says salvation happens any other way than Jesus...seeking and saving His sheep.

9Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, .

13And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them
14I will feed them .

15I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

.

20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

25And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.



29And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.

31And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

You will see why although we agree that a sinner who gets saved...does repent, and believe......but we see that this is the unseen work of God working to effect that salvation.
That is what Jesus meant and taught in Jn 3.....

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jerry....you do not want to speak against what God declares He will do for His people.....do you?
Yes...sinners repent ,and believe, exercise faith...yes.....

We just believe as Jonah says, and Jesus says. salvation is of the Lord

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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Jerry just as we cannot raise our self on the last day...Jesus will do that....dead sinners.......cannot ...raise themselves to newness of life.

That is the work of God,and the teaching of Calvinism.
we are not afraid of Election, Predestination,Foreknowledge,Covenant...it's in the bible..we believe it all..knowing we serve a Holy God who always does right!:wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).

yes...we cannot earn or work for it...Some in galatians were trying to preach a false gospel of works.....that is why paul writes this....

faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the word of God....but that does not negate that the Spirit is given so a sinner can have "ears to hear".

 

[Iconoclast]

Where do the scriptures say God gives a new heart to unbelievers? God says he will give a new heart to ”his people.“ The Jews were God's people, and they believed in Him. The Jews were not unbelievers, they were believers. So how do you get that you can say what you did to me?

Ezekiel 36:19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries: I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD'S people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

Do you still think God was talking about unbelievers?

Ezekiel 39:21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflect and the hand I lay upon them. 22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

Again, I ask you, does it sound like God was talking about believers in Him, or unbelievers? God does not give His Spirit to unbelievers. What scripture says that?

God does not give His Spirit to unbelievers

Every sinner before they are a believer...does not have the Spirit! that is the point...that is why Jesus taught...Ye MUST...be born again.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [/QUOTE]

I keep explaining this to you...but you cannot seem to grasp this..your false ideas , are blinding you to the basic truth.
Calvinism sees this truth and believes it.
Anyone whom God saves...are His people..jew or gentile...ONE NEW MAN in Christ.
Every sinner that God saves gets a new heart....in the new covenant...not the Jew only.
Not all Israel was of Israel.....Not all physical Israel was believers...

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Again....you resist the truth.....study these verses again , please.:thumbs:

 

[Moriah]

Every sinner before they are a believer...does not have the Spirit! that is the point...that is why Jesus taught...Ye MUST...be born again.

You said, "Every sinner before they are a believer...does not have the Spirit," NOR DOES EVERY BELIEVER, BEFORE THEY REPENT! Even demons
BELIEVE there is One God! See James 2:19.

Jesus taught that we must be born again. We are born again WHEN we receive the Spirit, then we will see the kingdom of God, FOR IT IS ONLY NEAR UNTIL WE REPENT, see Matthew 4:17.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I keep explaining this to you...but you cannot seem to grasp this..your false ideas , are blinding you to the basic truth.
Calvinism sees this truth and believes it.
Anyone whom God saves...are His people..jew or gentile...ONE NEW MAN in Christ.
Every sinner that God saves gets a new heart....in the new covenant...not the Jew only.
Not all Israel was of Israel.....Not all physical Israel was believers...

Again....you resist the truth.....study these verses again , please.

You do not just resist the Truth, you go against the Truth with all you have.

Show even one scripture that says God gives His Spirit to unbelievers. Show even one scripture that says God gives His Spirit to cause people to believe in Him. Do not believe in it if it is not in the Holy Bible. If it is not in the Bible, then it is NOT God's word.

 

[Moriah]

yes...we cannot earn or work for it...Some in galatians were trying to preach a false gospel of works.....that is why paul writes this....

Paul was talking to the Galatians. Judaizers were leading the saved Galatians astray, by telling the saved Gentiles that they must also do the works of the law to continue to be saved, the works such as circumcision, and abstaining from certain foods, and observing festivals.

faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the word of God....but that does not negate that the Spirit is given so a sinner can have "ears to hear".

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say God gives His Spirit to make people believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

You said, "Every sinner before they are a believer...does not have the Spirit," NOR DOES EVERY BELIEVER, BEFORE THEY REPENT! Even demons
BELIEVE there is One God! See James 2:19.

Jesus taught that we must be born again. We are born again WHEN we receive the Spirit, then we will see the kingdom of God, FOR IT IS ONLY NEAR UNTIL WE REPENT, see Matthew 4:17.




You do not just resist the Truth, you go against the Truth with all you have.

Show even one scripture that says God gives His Spirit to unbelievers. Show even one scripture that says God gives His Spirit to cause people to believe in Him. Do not believe in it if it is not in the Holy Bible. If it is not in the Bible, then it is NOT God's word.

You need spiritual eyesight...as you are repeating your error over and over...trying to explain why is like those here:

13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[Moriah]

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Does the scripture say the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard were not given faith to combine it? No, the scriptures do not say that. The scripture says “THEY” did not combine it with faith.

In addition, consider Deuteronomy 1:32 In spite of this, you did not trust in the LORD your God,

 

[Moriah]

You need spiritual eyesight...as you are repeating your error over and over...trying to explain why is like those here:

13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

I told you before, that Jesus Christ Himself has saved me, personally. You cannot say anything that would cause me to believe that I am blind. Now, start answering. Give the scripture that says God gives His Spirit to unbelievers, to make them believe.