Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

KJ, None of us ever claimed that God didn't love people.

I just ask you to show me in scripture where Parents in Heaven mourn their lost children in the presence of Jesus.

IT AIN'T THERE! </font>[/QUOTE]Hardsheller...it was said right on page 11 that God hates people. As for the parents in heaven...I would believe we would mourn for our lost children. Not to do so would be heartless and almost as much of a tragedy as the child rejecting the freely offered salvation through Christ by their own free will. Sad.

Also, can you show me where it says in the Bible that parents will NOT mourn their lost children? </font>[/QUOTE]1. There is no scriptural evidence that Christians in Heaven Mourn. This is a concocted and convoluted belief invented by Bob Ryan.

2. The Bible says there is joy in heaven among the angels over one sinner who repents. But it never says there is weeping in heaven over those sinners who don't.

3. Life on earth and life in Heaven is described and contrasted thusly by Jesus:

Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, (on earth) but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful,(on earth) but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. (in heaven)
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrowon earth) but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. (in heaven)

To believe and teach that Christian parents in the presence of Jesus Christ in Heaven will mourn their lost children is a denial of scripture evidence to the contrary. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Hardsheller, I think we can infer that if there is rejoicing by the angels over a lost soul saved that there MAY be mourning over souls that don't get saved.

Also, isn't the Scriptural evidence that parents mourn their lost children the fact that their tears have to be WIPED away? Maybe their mourning is taken away supernaturally by God, I'd grant that. But...you have to grant that they are mourning at least at the beginning or there is no need to have their tears wiped away. God bless.

 

The people in heaven were mourning because they were rebuked by his people?

I am wondering why you use the phrase "my Bible says...". Isn't it "THE Bible says..."? Otherwise I could ask if you have a poor translation. My (THE) Bible also says that God so loved the world...

 

King James - You wrote - But...you have to grant that they are mourning at least at the beginning or there is no need to have their tears wiped away.

No I do not have to grant that.

The idea that there is human mourning in Heaven is more consistent with Roman Catholicism's teaching of purgatory than it is with Protestant or Baptistic Biblical Interpretation of what Heaven is like.

The Bible is written to human beings who are living on earth. It is interpreted by people who are living on earth. It is written to people who are living in sorrow, grief, persecution, tribulation and trials as well as in good times.

To say that the reader of the Bible can expect a continuation of sorrow and mourning in heaven is contradictory to everything Christians have historically said about Heaven.

When a Christian Person Dies, The old physical world is left behind, and the old physical body is left behind. The only thing that goes to heaven is the soul. We get a new body in Heaven - a body that will not be taken or given in marriage - a spiritual body that will never be sick, never be tired, never be weak.

To even suggest that in our new bodies we will engage in old earthly patterns of mourning and weeping, even over the Lost is unthinkable and is never suggested in the Scripture and when compared to all the scriptures that teach about the Joys and the Blessings of Heaven becomes absurd.

 

Another thread that has lost its way, and become a burden to read!

 

And you're right.

 

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? The people in heaven were mourning because of, just as I posted, "the rebuke of his people." It is patently clear that the cause of their mourning was that God had rebuked His people.

Because that is what my bible says.

My bible is not the only bible. I assume you have one too. Yours may not say the same thing using the exact same words.

No, I use an excellent translation, the KJV.

And just what does that have to do with mourning in heaven? </font>[/QUOTE]No I don't have a reading comprehension problem and since the moderators are letting you get away with it I will have to confront you myself. Do YOU have a politeness problem? I think you better get some of the gentleness and humility that Larry preached at me about Calvinist. Now, I don't have a reading comprehension problem. I was sarcastically asking you a question. Who has the comprehension problem?

Well...the Bible is not YOUR Bible. It is God's Word, not YOUR Bible. Understand? I have a KJV too by the way.

You say "what does God loving the world have to do with mourning in heaven?" I already explained the reason for my statement. If you have to ask me why, well then it is YOU who has a reading comprehension problem and I will school you in the proper way to do it for a few thousand dollars. Good day.

 

Nevermind...

 

"King James - You wrote - But...you have to grant that they are mourning at least at the beginning or there is no need to have their tears wiped away.

No I do not have to grant that"

Hardsheller...yes you do. Does God wipe tears from their eyes IN heaven or NOT? 'nuff said

 

If there are tears in Heaven they will be tears of joy. Period. The End.

 

I think that a little study into what the use of the Greek for wipe will help our understanding. The word "wipe" as used in Revelation 21:4, is from the Greek "exaleipho", where, besides the basic meaning of "wipe", it is also used for, "remove , destroy , obliterate, blot out". This would mean that in heaven, there would be no more tears, because God has "destroyed", or "removed" this from us. It does not mean that after we have shed some tears, that God will wipe them away. This idea of "no more tears", can be see from the verse itself, where we read, that "...there shall be no more death, , neither sorrow, or crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things (which includes our tears of sorrow), are passed away"

Lets not make Scripture say something that it simply does not.

 

Very Good. Now if Bob Ryan will just pay attention!

 

Got a Scripture for that opinion? Hardsheller...your nickname is very appropriate.

 

icthus, thanks for bringing sanity to the discussion but I disagree with something you said. The Bible doesn't ONLY say there will be no tears in heaven...it says God will wipe their tears away and THEN there will be no more tears. That is saying they have tears in heaven and God wipes them away. I don't nkow why this is so difficult and has had to take up 13 pages.

 

I disagree. As I have already shown, there will ne no tears in heaven. The wiping away is a "figure of speech" for the total removal. There will ne nothing to cry about in heaven!

 

icthus...I disagree.

I will say again: "The Bible doesn't ONLY say there will be no tears in heaven...it says God will wipe their tears away and THEN there will be no more tears. That is saying they have tears in heaven and God wipes them away."

No need to shout and get all caustic now.

 

Wonderfull!! Welcome back to the bible side of the debate!!

So that means that the Parent CONTINUES to love the child EVEN when they both get to heaven and EVEN when ONE of the children "turns out" not to be in the arbitrarily selected "FEW" of Matt7!!

Instead of the Parent turning love into "hate hate hate" -- it is LOVE that CONTINUES as 1Cor 13 says!!

Imagine finding you to be in agreement with 1Cor 13 after so vehemently denying at all this time!!

So when it says LOVE REMAINS - though all else WILL CEASE at the 2nd coming -- we need to 'refefine REMAINS'!!!???

How "unnexpected" that Calvinism once again needs "a new definition"!!

So "WE DO NOT rejoice in the truth" now - because we are saints that are NOT in heaven? What twist you make of that text??!!

So "rejoicing in truth" mean HATE HATE HATE for the ones you now LOVE LOVE LOVE???!!!

What a huge bend and twist for 1Cor 13 in that "all-for-calvinism" form of eisegesis Calvinists are using here.

(I just love the way you claim to rejoice at SEEING the torment of your own loved ones the EDWARDS says you will)

That is TRUE "All-for-Calvinism" blind devotion No MATTER WHAT 1Cor 13 says - eh??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Sorry about that Hardsheller - I was out for a few days.

Bob

 

Let us "see" how The MAIN peronality of Heaven (God HIMSELF) MOURNS over the lost!

And let us reflect on the fact that we will SEE HIM as HE IS for we will be LIKE HIM. For WE have been "given the mind of Christ" 1Cor 2.

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

So is this "REAL" love?? Like A PARENT weeping over a child lost?? (Read Matt 23 if you doubt it!!)

How then do WE have the mind of Christ while anticipating that INTEAD of the compassion above we shall "hate hate hate" a precious child as we watch them burn in hell??

Certainly it is not the mind of Christ (THE UNCHANGING GOD) that we see in the word of God quoted above!!

So in view of THESE texts "Wiping away tears" HAS MEANING!

In Christ,

Bob