Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.
With every rant and railing diatribe on this thread the Calvinists CONFIRM that THE POINT made in the CFS is Correct!!

I'm having fun.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."
"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."
"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

With every rant and railing... Is not the impression I get from reading:

1SA 3:17 "What was it he said to you?" Eli asked. "Do not hide it from me. May God deal with you, be it ever so severely, if you hide from me anything he told you." 18 So Samuel told him everything, hiding nothing from him. Then Eli said, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

You must be hyper-sensitive or something!

Here Eli is used as an example of the very thing you speak of and you ignore him. His children were sent to Hell as a lesson to you, have they been sent there for nothing? We all could be for sin. They will ask you why you didn't listen.

Just as it is written: Just as it is written: Just as it is written:
"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9:13. HaHa! And you expect what from that?

Your reply? God is talking about Edom and He did not hate them He hated what they did and that to you is, "Just as it is written: Just as it is written: Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

God hated what Edom did is not Just as it is written is it? Just as it is written is "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." isn't it? But I am not an educated man. I thought that when it said, Just as it is written: it meant just as it is written! Silly me! It meant something completely different and was not 'just as it was written'. You speak with a very busy forked tongue.

It is a thing of man, something that a man is able to understand, Just as it is written: just as it is written below.

MAL 1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, `How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

As father as sons. Esau was the source of Edom and the source of it's destruction. As the tree so it's fruit.

john.

 

[OCC]

What does the word "hate" mean? I heard before that hate is not the absence of love, but love gone angry. In other words, there can be no hate unless there were first love. The devil proves this fact...he loved God at one time did he not?

Also, in true Calvinist fashion I could say "hate" doesn't really mean "hate". You know...kinda like all those "all doesn't mean all" and "love doesn't mean love" declarations of nonsense that Calvinists so profusely spew at us right thinking folk.

Last but not least, maybe God says He "hates" someone in the manner that many of us say it. It is more a figure of speech...or used to distinguish the love God has for believers vs. the love that He Himself claims to have for the lost. That is all I have to say.

 

[OCC]

"Simple question - Do Christian Parents in Heaven with Jesus witness the torment of their lost Children in Hell and mourn them?

So far Bob - You're the only one."

Hardsheller...you know not of what you speak. I agree with Bob. He is correct. That is WHY God has to wipe tears from our eyes. Why else would he have to do it? Cuz the world ends before the Cubs win a World Series???

 

[rc]

That's BEFORE our glorification KJ.

In heaven there won't be any sorrow.
Does this negate us not seeing people we know in torment, not EXACTLY, BUT we will not have sorrow, pain, or remorse. This are all results of SIN by sinners. Why does God WEEP now? Not because of us but because what we are doing. In heaven it will not be like that, for Him OR for us.

God HATES the evil doer. Ps 55
His soul HATES the wicked Ps 11

Sorry no "I love less" liberal yahoo here...
God HATES the wicked. You must understand and be more like God and not form God around the way you "feel" He would act.
Psalm 50:21 These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself . But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.

 

[OCC]

Why did you call me a "I love less" liberal yahoo? With language like that I can truly see that Calvinists "love less".

God HATES the wicked eh? Well...why did PastorLarry tell me on another Calvinism thread that God did love all mankind? What...you Calvinists can't even get things straight between you? Or is this "love" for ALL mankind INSINCERE? I just wanna know.

I don't try to form God to how I feel He should act. I feel He should act according to His nature and not lie. Either He loves all mankind or He doesn't. But the Bible says that He does.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James:
"Simple question - Do Christian Parents in Heaven with Jesus witness the torment of their lost Children in Hell and mourn them?

So far Bob - You're the only one."

Hardsheller...you know not of what you speak. I agree with Bob. He is correct. That is WHY God has to wipe tears from our eyes. Why else would he have to do it? Cuz the world ends before the Cubs win a World Series???

What is really interesting is that EDWARDS "agrees" that Parents will see the torment of the LOST -- ALL the lost!

Hardsheller ALREADY confessed that any parent seeing that would be in SHOCK!

Then Hardsheller ALSO said HE WOULD take Edward's position to be correct!!

Hardsheller has "confessed himself into a corner" -- an ARMINIAN Corner!!

His only out now - is illogical innexplicable tirades against the Arminian point he has ALREADY confessed!!

Whenver an argument has run aground like Hardshellers - silly attacks against those who "see it" and hold him accountable for it -- are to be expected.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[OCC]

Bob, good point. I would just let this all go. All Calvinists know how to do is twist Scripture, and call CHRISTIANS names such as heretics. It is a waste of time. I don't think I have anything more to say to them. We shall know them by their fruit brother...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello Bob.
Bob said -- With every rant and railing diatribe on this thread the Calvinists CONFIRM that THE POINT made in the CFS is Correct!!

JP said -- I'm having fun.

Me too!!

Aint it great!!

So far we have CONFIRMATION of THE POINT made in the CFS from Calvinists - and they seem to be hard pressed to do anything OTHER than CONFIRM it!!

I am thoroughly delighted!!

You must be hyper-sensitive or something!

Sensitive to "Joy" and "Rejoicing" I suppose eh?

MAL 1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, `How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

As father as sons. Esau was the source of Edom and the source of it's destruction. As the tree so it's fruit.

Calvinists can be counted on one thing when their argument gets weak -- an almost completely lack of attention to scripture!

(Which is what makes this so much fun for Arminians BTW)

Esau GOT ALL of the inheritance from Abraham given Isaac AND 100% of all that Isaac had!!

Jacob got NOTHING!! Not even a servant's share. Zip! Zero! Nadda!!

That means that "LIKE FATHER like SON" would argue for EDOM GETTING ALL the spoils and Israel getting NOTHING!!

The fact is that God's curses and blessings work exactly as MOSES said they would at the end of Deuteronomy. With rebellion reaping curses and obedience blessings.

(Hence - the blessings and the curses).

Notice that in Genesis God does not give the land to Abraham because the sins of the Amorites (their probation) is STILL ongoing for another 400 years!!

God who is good to the just AND the unjust is showing mercy, kindness and patience to AMORITES by sending them the witness of Abraham and Isaac and NOT displacing them!!

The Bible is time after time debunking the myths of Calvinism!

As for the Calvinists HERE arguing for the hating-God and FOR the CFS stating that God does NOT CARE for the precious child who is among the MANY!! Edwards sees it! RC confesses it! And now even Hardsheller.

ONLY JP Argues that "Election is based on GENETICS"!!! IF ever there was anyone "out on a limb" it is JP on that one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[rc]

If you think God loves those He hates go right ahead KJ. God HATES the evildoer. HATES HATES HATES HATES....

Just can't see how God can do anything to such a great creature as the ALL loving, all compassionate man. We are sooo precious and innocent. It's too bad we have just a little itsy bitsy little part of us that is just a little tainted. We are SO close to being God aren't we? ...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James:
Bob, good point. I would just let this all go. All Calvinists know how to do is twist Scripture, and call CHRISTIANS names such as heretics. It is a waste of time. I don't think I have anything more to say to them. We shall know them by their fruit brother...

Understood.


The "reason" I keep pursuing it is that there are a number of areas of confrontation between Calvinists and Arminians where Calvinists can assemble a much better cohesive response than they do here. But on a small number of topics they are fully exposed and have nothing to come back with except illogical ranting. This is one of those rare points where nothing but their raw exposed self-conflicted and emotional all-for-calvinism tactic remains.

When you see that - you know you have uncovered a huge gaping weakness in their "story". Their "inner arminian" is calling out so loud on this one they hardly know whether to yell at me or their OWN POSTS where they have made statements that they now must deny or have made statements that no other Calvinists would agree too!

This level of total confussion and dissarray within their camp is kind of unnusual. It only happens when their case is completely compromised.

If there is ever a time when a Calvinist is going to see a glaring blatant flaw in their story - it is in cases like these.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[OCC]

True Bob. Thanks. I just get tired of being called a heretic for believing that God loves people. Silly me...who do I think I am eh?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
[QB] If you think God loves those He hates go right ahead KJ. God HATES the evildoer. HATES HATES HATES HATES....

Another wonderfully conflicted illogical innexplicable Calvinist position!!

ALL mankind is DEPRAVED (all EVIL DOERS!!) even Calvinism MUST agree to this.

Yet INSTEAD of "God so HATED the world that HE BURNED IT" John 3:16 gives us the very ARMINIAN POV "God so LOVED the WORLD that HE GAVE.."

(Note: IT does not even say "God so loved the arbitrarily selected FEW of MATT 7 that HE GAVE..." -- IT says "THE WORLD"!!)

This "God so hated" gospel of Calvinism is EXACTLY what the CFS is designed to 'expose'.

RC can not help but confess to that view of God in his own posts and the CFS is merely EXPOSING that point in all its ugliness!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James:
True Bob. Thanks. I just get tired of being called a heretic for believing that God loves people. Silly me...who do I think I am eh?

You are right on the money.

And the beautiful thing is that the "inner arminian" in every Calvinist is decrying the "god so hated the world" gospel of Calvinists "Within them" as well as our exposing that error externally on this thread!!

It is really neat!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

Aint it great!!

Yea man a right laugh!

Jacob got NOTHING!! Not even a servant's share. Zip! Zero! Nadda!!

He got God don't you know? Esau was special and Edom treated as special. Jacob was ordered to leave Edom alone. Duet somewhere.
GE 25:31 Jacob replied, "First sell me your birthright." Nothing he got but preeminent he was. Loved not hated like Esau. You do not believe the scripture.

That means that "LIKE FATHER like SON" would argue for EDOM GETTING ALL the spoils and Israel getting NOTHING!!

Prosperity gospel is it? A rich man is blessed and so wins Heaven through wealth. Bank account regeneration is it?

ONLY JP Argues that "Election is based on GENETICS"!!! IF ever there was anyone "out on a limb" it is JP on that one.

I have never said that and that makes it a what? You made it up and that makes it fiction but you want others to believe I said it so it becomes a ...prove it? Black and white it is.

ONLY JP Argues that "Election is based on GENETICS"!!! IF ever there was anyone "out on a limb" it is JP on that one.

Yea man! Great stuff! Of course I remember my question now! There are others out here on the limb as well you know, at least I don't believe in a god of sobs alone but Calvin baptised children didn't he, a thing you will not admit even with your great knowledge?

john.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ONLY JP Argues that "Election is based on GENETICS"!!! IF ever there was anyone "out on a limb" it is JP on that one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JP
I have never said that and that makes it a what? You made it up and that makes it fiction but you want others to believe I said it so it becomes a ...prove it? Black and white it is.

More "shell gaming" JP???

So you did not say that all the CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN of the elect ARE ALSO saved - elect?

And you did not try to bend an OT promise see if you could get that story of yours to "hold water"???

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1466/6.html#000081

(This will be fun!!)

 

[BobRyan]

JohnP
My children and theirs are promised to me by God. That's Calvinism I think but it's definitely scripture.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1466/6.html?

Here JohnP argues for GENETICS as the BASIS for election. His CHILDREN and HIS Grandchildren all elect just BECAUSE HE is a Christian.

This is a principle never claimed by Clavinists as the "Basis for election" AND this is something that NEVER shows up in scripture.

Not with Adam, or Noah, or David, or Solomon, or Samuel, or Eli or Hezekiah or ...

Fortunately JP seems about to "confess" in the statement above - that this is also NOT Calvinism!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

(This will be fun!!)

Is Bob among the prophets also?

So you did not say that all the CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN of the elect ARE ALSO saved - elect?

That I did to be sure to be sure I did indeed 'Praise the Lord'.

So you did not say that all the CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN of the elect ARE ALSO saved - elect?

I did indeed indeed I did say the children's children and their children are indeed surely saved to be sure. Without doubt.

And you did not try to bend an OT promise see if you could get that story of yours to "hold water"???

So you say it is an OT promise then man! HaHa! Fun is right!
OT promise PS 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children--
Have another on me!

john.

 

[johnp.]

Here JohnP argues for GENETICS as the BASIS for election. His CHILDREN and HIS Grandchildren all elect just BECAUSE HE is a Christian.

And here Bob argues for GENETICS as the BASIS for election as an Old Testiment promise! And you did not try to bend an OT promise see if you could get that story of yours to "hold water"???

More "shell gaming" JP???

Me? Straight as a die me mate how am I doing?

Fortunately JP seems about to "confess" in the statement above - that this is also NOT Calvinism!!

Not me mate that would not be seemly.

john.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by King James:
True Bob. Thanks. I just get tired of being called a heretic for believing that God loves people. Silly me...who do I think I am eh?

KJ, None of us ever claimed that God didn't love people.

I just ask you to show me in scripture where Parents in Heaven mourn their lost children in the presence of Jesus.

IT AIN'T THERE!