Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:

You're the first Arminian I've ever met who claimed to completely understand the Revelation so much so that you actually claim to know conclusively What God will be like, what He will do and when He will do it and who he will do it with and How He will feel about it.

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that "God IS LOVE" as John states in 1John 4. You are the first I have met who doubts it and finds it amazing that a Christian "might know" this.

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that our LOVE (yes EVEN our love for our precious children) is that which REMAINS according to 1 Cor 13. You and RC are the first person I have met who would directly challenge that text. (And of course RC insists we will cease to love them AT ALL if they are not arbitrarily "selected" for heaven as the FEW of Matt 7,,, but are instead among the MANY).

Almost every Christian I KNOW accepts the promise that the saints will "EVER BE WITH" Christ as in "really IN His Presence"!! You are the first I have met who would go on a tirade challenging that point when you discover that Rev 14:10 ALSO has the wicked tormented IN God's Presence!! Even RC and Edwards refuse to go to such extremes even in "anything-for-Calvinism" defensive posts.

The Bible SAYS God "weeps" over the lost and that "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" are stirred up over them. Do you "believe" God has compassion or do you reject it? How MUCH is "ALL GOD's COMPASSIONS" Hardsheller??

Almost every Christian I know (sometimes even RC and you) - "admit" that we will be MORE LIKE the God described in these texts. But you now want to pretend that "knowing about such a God" is illusive for you. You do this in your anything-goes-for-Calvnism posting style.

How sad that the all-for-calvinism mindset leads people to such extremes! The bible is so clear and LOVE (for GOD AND our fellow human beings) is so BASIC and obvious in the Law of God -- yet so disputed in the all-for-calvinism defenses posted here!!

Can any Christian read those all-for-calvinism posts and not SEE how they resist even the most basic points of the Gospel!!???

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by johnp.:
So you try to win your case by telling us that God did not hate one man but a tribe! Brilliant Bob boy, brilliant!

john.

Read "the chapter" in Malachi it SHOWS their "rebellion" over centuries and not "arbitrary hatred" on the part of God!!

Details.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In honor of this new God is "hate" defense of Calvinism so far -- I have updated my Calvinist Future Scenario.

Instead of just saying to the loving Parent who implores God about their precious little girl writhing in the torment of flames "Why of course I could have DONE something IF I had CARED to" -- He should add "In fact not only do I NOT care to -- I hate your precious little girl!! Come join me IN My Presence as we SEE what I am doing to her and ALL the MANY of Matt 7"

Now it may be that 3 point Calvinists will say that "that is 4 and 5 point calvinism and NOT 3 point" -- so I hesitate to add it for the sake of those Bible-accepting who do not leap off the anything-goes-for-calvinism cliff. But that CFS is specifically NOT for 3 pointers -- so IN IT GOES!!

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:

You're the first Arminian I've ever met who claimed to completely understand the Revelation so much so that you actually claim to know conclusively What God will be like, what He will do and when He will do it and who he will do it with and How He will feel about it.

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that "God IS LOVE" as John states in 1John 4. You are the first I have met who doubts it and finds it amazing that a Christian "might know" this.

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that our LOVE (yes EVEN our love for our precious children) is that which REMAINS according to 1 Cor 13. You and RC are the first person I have met who would directly challenge that text. (And of course RC insists we will cease to love them AT ALL if they are not arbitrarily "selected" for heaven as the FEW of Matt 7,,, but are instead among the MANY).

Almost every Christian I KNOW accepts the promise that the saints will "EVER BE WITH" Christ as in "really IN His Presence"!! You are the first I have met who would go on a tirade challenging that point when you discover that Rev 14:10 ALSO has the wicked tormented IN God's Presence!! Even RC and Edwards refuse to go to such extremes even in "anything-for-Calvinism" defensive posts.

The Bible SAYS God "weeps" over the lost and that "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" are stirred up over them. Do you "believe" God has compassion or do you reject it? How MUCH is "ALL GOD's COMPASSIONS" Hardsheller??

Almost every Christian I know (sometimes even RC and you) - "admit" that we will be MORE LIKE the God described in these texts. But you now want to pretend that "knowing about such a God" is illusive for you. You do this in your anything-goes-for-Calvnism posting style.

How sad that the all-for-calvinism mindset leads people to such extremes! The bible is so clear and LOVE (for GOD AND our fellow human beings) is so BASIC and obvious in the Law of God -- yet so disputed in the all-for-calvinism defenses posted here!!

Can any Christian read those all-for-calvinism posts and not SEE how they resist even the most basic points of the Gospel!!???

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob, You're still the only "Christian" I have ever heard of who sees Godly Parents in heaven weeping over their lost children in Hell. When you get ready - we stand ready to forgive you for your error.

 

[rc]

It is fiction to say the least.

The whole point is missing is the chief point. Glorifying God. How will God be glorified buy our weeping and sobbing over those in hell? How is that exalting? Heaven will be ultimate PLEASURE, and HAPPINESS. We will be in the presence of God! Pure happiness is ultimately God. He is most satisfied in us, when we are most satisfied in Him. And in heaven He is going to give us ultimate pleasure and happiness... Himself! We will be in consummate praise and worship, glorifying Him in His presence!

Again you can't fine ONE verse that says we will have any remorse, sadness, worry, and pain in heaven. These are all results from sin. There will be no such thing in heaven.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by rc:
It is fiction to say the least.

The whole point is missing is the chief point. Glorifying God. How will God be glorified buy our weeping and sobbing over those in hell? How is that exalting? Heaven will be ultimate PLEASURE, and HAPPINESS. We will be in the presence of God! Pure happiness is ultimately God. He is most satisfied in us, when we are most satisfied in Him. And in heaven He is going to give us ultimate pleasure and happiness... Himself! We will be in consummate praise and worship, glorifying Him in His presence!

Again you can't fine ONE verse that says we will have any remorse, sadness, worry, and pain in heaven. These are all results from sin. There will be no such thing in heaven.

AMEN and AMEN. And Thus endeth the Lie of the Fallacious Scenario.

 

[BobRyan]

Hardsheller said --
we stand ready to forgive you for your error.

You are still among the "FEW" Christians "I have ever heard of" claiming that Parents SEEING Their children tormented WOULD cry out for JOY!

You are perhaps the ONLY one I have met who would argue that Christians are WITH Christ but NOT in the PRESENCE of CHRIST (in your tirade against Rev 14:10 and Christians being in Christ's presence).

And your argument that Christians are NOTHING LIKE the WEEPING God who "has ALL HIS compassions stirred up" over the lost -- never met another like that argument of yours..

If I were God such that your error was a sin "against me" I would certainly stand ready to forgive you for your error.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

If I were God such that your error was a sin "against me" I would certainly stand ready to forgive you for your error.

RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

john.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
It is fiction to say the least.

Ahhh --

"Fiction" that the saints SEE the torment of the lost (See Rev 14:10) IN THE PRESENCE of GOD?? Even Edwards admits to this - but you say this scenario is FICTION??

"Fiction" that Parents will have lost children in Calvinism - because there is no such thing as "Election determined by genetics"??? Spurgeon seems to "agree with this point" but "you" call it fiction??? How odd!!

"FICTION" that God weeps over the lost and "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" are stirred up over the lost?? Odd that God's Word has to be "Fiction" to satisfy your lack of argument here!!

"Fiction" that the Saints will CONTINUE to Love their children in heaven??? Strange that 1 Cor 13 ARGUES FOR THAT VERY POINT of love CONTINUED in heaven not truncated as "Calvinism so desperately NEEDS". So you dumb 1 Cor 13 into the trash "ALL for Calvinism" ?? What strange "fiction" you have!!

"Fiction" that EVEN HARDSHELLER admitted that Parents VIEWING their own loved ones suffering -- would be IN SHOCK!!! (You reason and logic have competely left you if you are going to blame ME for what Hardsheller confessed!!)

"Fiction" that EDWARDS claims ALL THE WICKED are viewed by the saints NOT SOME SELECTED SUBSET??

"FICTION" in the CFS where the Calvinist parent is tossed immediately into that EDWARDS-centric view of their OWN Loved one - REJOICING that GRACE is all about THEM and NOT concerned AT ALL for their childe???

The more you point at the scenario or the logic or the Bible the more embarrassing this gets for you view as you have completely abandoned all of them.

The only reason the lot of Calvinists have NOT addressed these points so far - (except to dodge them and offer incoherent half excuses) is that they HAVE no response!

This point is most obvious of all since we CAN SEE in other arguments Where Calvinism has a leg to stand how - how effectively the Calvinist's post in favor of "That leg"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

RC
Again you can't fine ONE verse that says we will have any remorse, sadness, worry, and pain

"Again" I already DID! I show how the UNCHANGING God (and "yes" HE IS IN HEAVEN) said HE WEEPS over the lost, and that ALL HIS COMPASSIONS are stirred up over the fate of the lost. God Himself calls out "OH WHY will you die??"

This is the SAME UNCHANGING God that the saints will become "MORE LIKE" in heaven! (As even you agreed to at one time).

Simply repeating yourself while glossing over these points of scripture -- is not helping your case. RAther it only "Shows" that Calvinism "has no answer"!!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by johnp.:
RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?
john.

INdeed for it rests with God who "HAS MERCY".

Calvinism argues that it rests with God who "DOES NOT have Mercy"

God sends the rain ON the Just AND the unjust and so demands that HIS OWN children behave the SAME Loving way towards the lost!!

God WEEPS over the lost and even says of them "THEY REJECTED God's PURPOSE for them"!!

But you on the other hand would CHANGE the CFS so that God not ONLY SAYS "Of COURSE I COULD have IF I had CARED to" - but ALSO you insists "God so HATED the precious little girl that he causes the Parent to hate like him"!!

Your argument has totally collapsed sir!

The fact that you would hold out any option at all for exposing your views to the light of day - does you credit! I am happy that at least this much remains in your position.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

RC
Again you can't find ONE verse that says we will have any remorse, sadness, worry, and pain

Quick and dirty 'a'?

"Again" I already DID! You say?
Give it again please I missed it .

john.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by johnp.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />RC
Again you can't find ONE verse that says we will have any remorse, sadness, worry, and pain

Quick and dirty 'a'?

"Again" I already DID! You say?
Give it again please I missed it .

john. </font>[/QUOTE]You are way too kind to open this door of exposure onto the failings of Calvinism "again".

Here "again" is the UNCHANGING God showing His OWN compassion

When God weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

And of course JohnP is right - HE and all the other Calvinists here "miss those scriptures" in their response that is invariably of the form of "glossing over the details" and ignoring the texts altogether!

Having said that - notice that the CFS is actually SHOWING that Calvinism REQUIRES a cold heartless disconcern for our lost loved ones!! IT SHOWS that this is THE only Calvinist solution!

With every rant and railing diatribe on this thread the Calvinists CONFIRM that THE POINT made in the CFS is Correct!!

Notice again the CFS INSISTS That the disconcern - the cold heartless responses seen here to CONCERN for the loved ones - is THE expected attitude of Calvinism EVEN when it comes to one's own precious little girl writhing in the torment of flames.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This scenario has been making THE VERY POINT that Calvinists have been so insitent on in this thread. That ONLY a heartlessly cold disconcern for the finally lost can be tolerated by Calvinism!!

Then the Calvinists here "continue" to rail that in fact THIS IS THE CASE!!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[johnp.]

Hello bob.

Notice again the CFS INSISTS That the disconcern - the cold heartless responses seen here to CONCERN for the loved ones - is THE expected attitude of Calvinism EVEN when it comes to one's own precious little girl writhing in the torment of flames.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:18.

john.

 

[johnp.]

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."
"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."
"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

Praise His Name.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

Eli said that after he was told that the God of Everlasting Sobs intended to send his kids to everlasting conscience torment and agony without relief.

Hard hearted Calvinist that Eli.

I say it again because you have not dealt with Eli. He looks such a weak man at times but he is used in a mighty way to break down errors.
Here he is used as an example of the very thing you speak of and you ignore him.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

john.

 

[johnp.]

Having said that - notice that the CFS is actually SHOWING that Calvinism REQUIRES a cold heartless disconcern for our lost loved ones!! IT SHOWS that this is THE only Calvinist solution!

You Bob you said that.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." Eli said that.

One coldhearted solution if I'm not mistaken! Want it wrapped or you going to eat it now?

john.

 

[Hardsheller]

Interesting that none of the Non-Calvinists on this board have agreed with Bob on this one issue.

Simple question - Do Christian Parents in Heaven with Jesus witness the torment of their lost Children in Hell and mourn them?

So far Bob - You're the only one.

Must feel pretty lonesome to be wrong and alone in your view.