Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that "God IS LOVE" as John states in 1John 4. You are the first I have met who doubts it and finds it amazing that a Christian "might know" this.

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that our LOVE (yes EVEN our love for our precious children) is that which REMAINS according to 1 Cor 13. You and RC are the first person I have met who would directly challenge that text. (And of course RC insists we will cease to love them AT ALL if they are not arbitrarily "selected" for heaven as the FEW of Matt 7,,, but are instead among the MANY).

Almost every Christian I KNOW accepts the promise that the saints will "EVER BE WITH" Christ as in "really IN His Presence"!! You are the first I have met who would go on a tirade challenging that point when you discover that Rev 14:10 ALSO has the wicked tormented IN God's Presence!! Even RC and Edwards refuse to go to such extremes even in "anything-for-Calvinism" defensive posts.

The Bible SAYS God "weeps" over the lost and that "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" are stirred up over them. Do you "believe" God has compassion or do you reject it? How MUCH is "ALL GOD's COMPASSIONS" Hardsheller??

Almost every Christian I know (sometimes even RC and you) - "admit" that we will be MORE LIKE the God described in these texts. But you now want to pretend that "knowing about such a God" is illusive for you. You do this in your anything-goes-for-Calvnism posting style.

How sad that the all-for-calvinism mindset leads people to such extremes! The bible is so clear and LOVE (for GOD AND our fellow human beings) is so BASIC and obvious in the Law of God -- yet so disputed in the all-for-calvinism defenses posted here!!

Can any Christian read those all-for-calvinism posts and not SEE how they resist even the most basic points of the Gospel!!???

In Christ,

Bob

 

Read "the chapter" in Malachi it SHOWS their "rebellion" over centuries and not "arbitrary hatred" on the part of God!!

Details.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In honor of this new God is "hate" defense of Calvinism so far -- I have updated my Calvinist Future Scenario.

Instead of just saying to the loving Parent who implores God about their precious little girl writhing in the torment of flames "Why of course I could have DONE something IF I had CARED to" -- He should add "In fact not only do I NOT care to -- I hate your precious little girl!! Come join me IN My Presence as we SEE what I am doing to her and ALL the MANY of Matt 7"

Now it may be that 3 point Calvinists will say that "that is 4 and 5 point calvinism and NOT 3 point" -- so I hesitate to add it for the sake of those Bible-accepting who do not leap off the anything-goes-for-calvinism cliff. But that CFS is specifically NOT for 3 pointers -- so IN IT GOES!!

 

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that "God IS LOVE" as John states in 1John 4. You are the first I have met who doubts it and finds it amazing that a Christian "might know" this.

Almost every Christian I have ever met believes that our LOVE (yes EVEN our love for our precious children) is that which REMAINS according to 1 Cor 13. You and RC are the first person I have met who would directly challenge that text. (And of course RC insists we will cease to love them AT ALL if they are not arbitrarily "selected" for heaven as the FEW of Matt 7,,, but are instead among the MANY).

Almost every Christian I KNOW accepts the promise that the saints will "EVER BE WITH" Christ as in "really IN His Presence"!! You are the first I have met who would go on a tirade challenging that point when you discover that Rev 14:10 ALSO has the wicked tormented IN God's Presence!! Even RC and Edwards refuse to go to such extremes even in "anything-for-Calvinism" defensive posts.

The Bible SAYS God "weeps" over the lost and that "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" are stirred up over them. Do you "believe" God has compassion or do you reject it? How MUCH is "ALL GOD's COMPASSIONS" Hardsheller??

Almost every Christian I know (sometimes even RC and you) - "admit" that we will be MORE LIKE the God described in these texts. But you now want to pretend that "knowing about such a God" is illusive for you. You do this in your anything-goes-for-Calvnism posting style.

How sad that the all-for-calvinism mindset leads people to such extremes! The bible is so clear and LOVE (for GOD AND our fellow human beings) is so BASIC and obvious in the Law of God -- yet so disputed in the all-for-calvinism defenses posted here!!

Can any Christian read those all-for-calvinism posts and not SEE how they resist even the most basic points of the Gospel!!???

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob, You're still the only "Christian" I have ever heard of who sees Godly Parents in heaven weeping over their lost children in Hell. When you get ready - we stand ready to forgive you for your error.

 

It is fiction to say the least.

The whole point is missing is the chief point. Glorifying God. How will God be glorified buy our weeping and sobbing over those in hell? How is that exalting? Heaven will be ultimate PLEASURE, and HAPPINESS. We will be in the presence of God! Pure happiness is ultimately God. He is most satisfied in us, when we are most satisfied in Him. And in heaven He is going to give us ultimate pleasure and happiness... Himself! We will be in consummate praise and worship, glorifying Him in His presence!

Again you can't fine ONE verse that says we will have any remorse, sadness, worry, and pain in heaven. These are all results from sin. There will be no such thing in heaven.

 

AMEN and AMEN. And Thus endeth the Lie of the Fallacious Scenario.

 

You are still among the "FEW" Christians "I have ever heard of" claiming that Parents SEEING Their children tormented WOULD cry out for JOY!

You are perhaps the ONLY one I have met who would argue that Christians are WITH Christ but NOT in the PRESENCE of CHRIST (in your tirade against Rev 14:10 and Christians being in Christ's presence).

And your argument that Christians are NOTHING LIKE the WEEPING God who "has ALL HIS compassions stirred up" over the lost -- never met another like that argument of yours..

If I were God such that your error was a sin "against me" I would certainly stand ready to forgive you for your error.

In Christ,

Bob

 

RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

john.

 

Ahhh --

"Fiction" that the saints SEE the torment of the lost (See Rev 14:10) IN THE PRESENCE of GOD?? Even Edwards admits to this - but you say this scenario is FICTION??

"Fiction" that Parents will have lost children in Calvinism - because there is no such thing as "Election determined by genetics"??? Spurgeon seems to "agree with this point" but "you" call it fiction??? How odd!!

"FICTION" that God weeps over the lost and "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS" are stirred up over the lost?? Odd that God's Word has to be "Fiction" to satisfy your lack of argument here!!

"Fiction" that the Saints will CONTINUE to Love their children in heaven??? Strange that 1 Cor 13 ARGUES FOR THAT VERY POINT of love CONTINUED in heaven not truncated as "Calvinism so desperately NEEDS". So you dumb 1 Cor 13 into the trash "ALL for Calvinism" ?? What strange "fiction" you have!!

"Fiction" that EVEN HARDSHELLER admitted that Parents VIEWING their own loved ones suffering -- would be IN SHOCK!!! (You reason and logic have competely left you if you are going to blame ME for what Hardsheller confessed!!)

"Fiction" that EDWARDS claims ALL THE WICKED are viewed by the saints NOT SOME SELECTED SUBSET??

"FICTION" in the CFS where the Calvinist parent is tossed immediately into that EDWARDS-centric view of their OWN Loved one - REJOICING that GRACE is all about THEM and NOT concerned AT ALL for their childe???

The more you point at the scenario or the logic or the Bible the more embarrassing this gets for you view as you have completely abandoned all of them.

The only reason the lot of Calvinists have NOT addressed these points so far - (except to dodge them and offer incoherent half excuses) is that they HAVE no response!

This point is most obvious of all since we CAN SEE in other arguments Where Calvinism has a leg to stand how - how effectively the Calvinist's post in favor of "That leg"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

"Again" I already DID! I show how the UNCHANGING God (and "yes" HE IS IN HEAVEN) said HE WEEPS over the lost, and that ALL HIS COMPASSIONS are stirred up over the fate of the lost. God Himself calls out "OH WHY will you die??"

This is the SAME UNCHANGING God that the saints will become "MORE LIKE" in heaven! (As even you agreed to at one time).

Simply repeating yourself while glossing over these points of scripture -- is not helping your case. RAther it only "Shows" that Calvinism "has no answer"!!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

INdeed for it rests with God who "HAS MERCY".

Calvinism argues that it rests with God who "DOES NOT have Mercy"

God sends the rain ON the Just AND the unjust and so demands that HIS OWN children behave the SAME Loving way towards the lost!!

God WEEPS over the lost and even says of them "THEY REJECTED God's PURPOSE for them"!!

But you on the other hand would CHANGE the CFS so that God not ONLY SAYS "Of COURSE I COULD have IF I had CARED to" - but ALSO you insists "God so HATED the precious little girl that he causes the Parent to hate like him"!!

Your argument has totally collapsed sir!

The fact that you would hold out any option at all for exposing your views to the light of day - does you credit! I am happy that at least this much remains in your position.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Quick and dirty 'a'?

"Again" I already DID! You say?
Give it again please I missed it .

john.

 

Quick and dirty 'a'?

"Again" I already DID! You say?
Give it again please I missed it .

john. </font>[/QUOTE]You are way too kind to open this door of exposure onto the failings of Calvinism "again".

Here "again" is the UNCHANGING God showing His OWN compassion

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

And of course JohnP is right - HE and all the other Calvinists here "miss those scriptures" in their response that is invariably of the form of "glossing over the details" and ignoring the texts altogether!

Having said that - notice that the CFS is actually SHOWING that Calvinism REQUIRES a cold heartless disconcern for our lost loved ones!! IT SHOWS that this is THE only Calvinist solution!

With every rant and railing diatribe on this thread the Calvinists CONFIRM that THE POINT made in the CFS is Correct!!

Notice again the CFS INSISTS That the disconcern - the cold heartless responses seen here to CONCERN for the loved ones - is THE expected attitude of Calvinism EVEN when it comes to one's own precious little girl writhing in the torment of flames.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This scenario has been making THE VERY POINT that Calvinists have been so insitent on in this thread. That ONLY a heartlessly cold disconcern for the finally lost can be tolerated by Calvinism!!

Then the Calvinists here "continue" to rail that in fact THIS IS THE CASE!!

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Hello bob.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:18.

john.

 

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."
"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."
"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

Praise His Name.

 

Hello Bob.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

Eli said that after he was told that the God of Everlasting Sobs intended to send his kids to everlasting conscience torment and agony without relief.

Hard hearted Calvinist that Eli.

I say it again because you have not dealt with Eli. He looks such a weak man at times but he is used in a mighty way to break down errors.
Here he is used as an example of the very thing you speak of and you ignore him.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

john.

 

Having said that - notice that the CFS is actually SHOWING that Calvinism REQUIRES a cold heartless disconcern for our lost loved ones!! IT SHOWS that this is THE only Calvinist solution!

You Bob you said that.

"He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." Eli said that.

One coldhearted solution if I'm not mistaken! Want it wrapped or you going to eat it now?

john.

 

Interesting that none of the Non-Calvinists on this board have agreed with Bob on this one issue.

Simple question - Do Christian Parents in Heaven with Jesus witness the torment of their lost Children in Hell and mourn them?

So far Bob - You're the only one.

Must feel pretty lonesome to be wrong and alone in your view.