Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[OCC]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
True Bob. Thanks. I just get tired of being called a heretic for believing that God loves people. Silly me...who do I think I am eh?

KJ, None of us ever claimed that God didn't love people.

I just ask you to show me in scripture where Parents in Heaven mourn their lost children in the presence of Jesus.

IT AIN'T THERE! </font>[/QUOTE]Hardsheller...it was said right on page 11 that God hates people. As for the parents in heaven...I would believe we would mourn for our lost children. Not to do so would be heartless and almost as much of a tragedy as the child rejecting the freely offered salvation through Christ by their own free will. Sad.

Also, can you show me where it says in the Bible that parents will NOT mourn their lost children? </font>[/QUOTE]1. There is no scriptural evidence that Christians in Heaven Mourn. This is a concocted and convoluted belief invented by Bob Ryan.

2. The Bible says there is joy in heaven among the angels over one sinner who repents. But it never says there is weeping in heaven over those sinners who don't.

3. Life on earth and life in Heaven is described and contrasted thusly by Jesus:

Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, (on earth) but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful,(on earth) but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. (in heaven)
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrowon earth) but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. (in heaven)

To believe and teach that Christian parents in the presence of Jesus Christ in Heaven will mourn their lost children is a denial of scripture evidence to the contrary. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Hardsheller, I think we can infer that if there is rejoicing by the angels over a lost soul saved that there MAY be mourning over souls that don't get saved.

Also, isn't the Scriptural evidence that parents mourn their lost children the fact that their tears have to be WIPED away? Maybe their mourning is taken away supernaturally by God, I'd grant that. But...you have to grant that they are mourning at least at the beginning or there is no need to have their tears wiped away. God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by King James:
tcassidy, the point is 'God has wiped their tears'. Why is that? Because they were MOURNING.

But what were they mourning? My bible says the tears were caused by "the rebuke of his people" which the bible says "shall he take away from off all the earth."

 

[OCC]

The people in heaven were mourning because they were rebuked by his people?

I am wondering why you use the phrase "my Bible says...". Isn't it "THE Bible says..."? Otherwise I could ask if you have a poor translation. My (THE) Bible also says that God so loved the world...

 

[Hardsheller]

King James - You wrote - But...you have to grant that they are mourning at least at the beginning or there is no need to have their tears wiped away.

No I do not have to grant that.

The idea that there is human mourning in Heaven is more consistent with Roman Catholicism's teaching of purgatory than it is with Protestant or Baptistic Biblical Interpretation of what Heaven is like.

The Bible is written to human beings who are living on earth. It is interpreted by people who are living on earth. It is written to people who are living in sorrow, grief, persecution, tribulation and trials as well as in good times.

To say that the reader of the Bible can expect a continuation of sorrow and mourning in heaven is contradictory to everything Christians have historically said about Heaven.

When a Christian Person Dies, The old physical world is left behind, and the old physical body is left behind. The only thing that goes to heaven is the soul. We get a new body in Heaven - a body that will not be taken or given in marriage - a spiritual body that will never be sick, never be tired, never be weak.

To even suggest that in our new bodies we will engage in old earthly patterns of mourning and weeping, even over the Lost is unthinkable and is never suggested in the Scripture and when compared to all the scriptures that teach about the Joys and the Blessings of Heaven becomes absurd.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by King James:
The people in heaven were mourning because they were rebuked by his people?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? The people in heaven were mourning because of, just as I posted, "the rebuke of his people." It is patently clear that the cause of their mourning was that God had rebuked His people.

I am wondering why you use the phrase "my Bible says...".

Because that is what my bible says.

Isn't it "THE Bible says..."?

My bible is not the only bible. I assume you have one too. Yours may not say the same thing using the exact same words.

Otherwise I could ask if you have a poor translation.

No, I use an excellent translation, the KJV.

My (THE) Bible also says that God so loved the world...

And just what does that have to do with mourning in heaven?

 

[icthus]

Another thread that has lost its way, and become a burden to read!

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by icthus:
Another thread that has lost its way, and become a burden to read!

And you're right.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
The people in heaven were mourning because they were rebuked by his people?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? The people in heaven were mourning because of, just as I posted, "the rebuke of his people." It is patently clear that the cause of their mourning was that God had rebuked His people.

I am wondering why you use the phrase "my Bible says...".

Because that is what my bible says.

Isn't it "THE Bible says..."?

My bible is not the only bible. I assume you have one too. Yours may not say the same thing using the exact same words.

Otherwise I could ask if you have a poor translation.

No, I use an excellent translation, the KJV.

My (THE) Bible also says that God so loved the world...

And just what does that have to do with mourning in heaven? </font>[/QUOTE]No I don't have a reading comprehension problem and since the moderators are letting you get away with it I will have to confront you myself. Do YOU have a politeness problem? I think you better get some of the gentleness and humility that Larry preached at me about Calvinist. Now, I don't have a reading comprehension problem. I was sarcastically asking you a question. Who has the comprehension problem?

Well...the Bible is not YOUR Bible. It is God's Word, not YOUR Bible. Understand? I have a KJV too by the way.

You say "what does God loving the world have to do with mourning in heaven?" I already explained the reason for my statement. If you have to ask me why, well then it is YOU who has a reading comprehension problem and I will school you in the proper way to do it for a few thousand dollars. Good day.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by icthus:
Another thread that has lost its way, and become a burden to read!

Nevermind...

 

[OCC]

"King James - You wrote - But...you have to grant that they are mourning at least at the beginning or there is no need to have their tears wiped away.

No I do not have to grant that"

Hardsheller...yes you do. Does God wipe tears from their eyes IN heaven or NOT? 'nuff said

 

[Hardsheller]

If there are tears in Heaven they will be tears of joy. Period. The End.

 

[icthus]

I think that a little study into what the use of the Greek for wipe will help our understanding. The word "wipe" as used in Revelation 21:4, is from the Greek "exaleipho", where, besides the basic meaning of "wipe", it is also used for, "remove , destroy , obliterate, blot out". This would mean that in heaven, there would be no more tears, because God has "destroyed", or "removed" this from us. It does not mean that after we have shed some tears, that God will wipe them away. This idea of "no more tears", can be see from the verse itself, where we read, that "...there shall be no more death, , neither sorrow, or crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things (which includes our tears of sorrow), are passed away"

Lets not make Scripture say something that it simply does not.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by icthus:
I think that a little study into what the use of the Greek for wipe will help our understanding. The word "wipe" as used in Revelation 21:4, is from the Greek "exaleipho", where, besides the basic meaning of "wipe", it is also used for, "remove , destroy , obliterate, blot out". This would mean that in heaven, there would be no more tears, because God has "destroyed", or "removed" this from us. It does not mean that after we have shed some tears, that God will wipe them away. This idea of "no more tears", can be see from the verse itself, where we read, that "...there shall be no more death, , neither sorrow, or crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things (which includes our tears of sorrow), are passed away"

Lets not make Scripture say something that it simply does not.

Very Good. Now if Bob Ryan will just pay attention!

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
If there are tears in Heaven they will be tears of joy. Period. The End.

Got a Scripture for that opinion? Hardsheller...your nickname is very appropriate.

 

[OCC]

icthus, thanks for bringing sanity to the discussion but I disagree with something you said. The Bible doesn't ONLY say there will be no tears in heaven...it says God will wipe their tears away and THEN there will be no more tears. That is saying they have tears in heaven and God wipes them away. I don't nkow why this is so difficult and has had to take up 13 pages.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by King James:
icthus, thanks for bringing sanity to the discussion but I disagree with something you said. The Bible doesn't ONLY say there will be no tears in heaven...it says God will wipe their tears away and THEN there will be no more tears. That is saying they have tears in heaven and God wipes them away. I don't nkow why this is so difficult and has had to take up 13 pages.

I disagree. As I have already shown, there will ne no tears in heaven. The wiping away is a "figure of speech" for the total removal. There will ne nothing to cry about in heaven!

 

[OCC]

icthus...I disagree.

I will say again: "The Bible doesn't ONLY say there will be no tears in heaven...it says God will wipe their tears away and THEN there will be no more tears. That is saying they have tears in heaven and God wipes them away."

No need to shout and get all caustic now.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan wrote - IT is LOVE THAT CONTINUES in heaven for the saints toward ALL whom they loved and had compassion for -- according to 1Cor 13 -- do you publically repudiate that scripture?[/b]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:

No one repudiates 1 Cor 13. It is the Love chapter.

Wonderfull!! Welcome back to the bible side of the debate!!

So that means that the Parent CONTINUES to love the child EVEN when they both get to heaven and EVEN when ONE of the children "turns out" not to be in the arbitrarily selected "FEW" of Matt7!!

Instead of the Parent turning love into "hate hate hate" -- it is LOVE that CONTINUES as 1Cor 13 says!!

Imagine finding you to be in agreement with 1Cor 13 after so vehemently denying at all this time!!

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
But it is not speaking of Love in Heaven

So when it says LOVE REMAINS - though all else WILL CEASE at the 2nd coming -- we need to 'refefine REMAINS'!!!???

How "unnexpected" that Calvinism once again needs "a new definition"!!

Originally posted by Hardsheller:

If you want to transfer this Love to heaven and get it right then you will need to focus on 1 Cor 13:6 - Love Rejoices in the Truth.

So "WE DO NOT rejoice in the truth" now - because we are saints that are NOT in heaven? What twist you make of that text??!!

So "rejoicing in truth" mean HATE HATE HATE for the ones you now LOVE LOVE LOVE???!!!

What a huge bend and twist for 1Cor 13 in that "all-for-calvinism" form of eisegesis Calvinists are using here.

(I just love the way you claim to rejoice at SEEING the torment of your own loved ones the EDWARDS says you will)

That is TRUE "All-for-Calvinism" blind devotion No MATTER WHAT 1Cor 13 says - eh??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hardsheller said --
Very Good. Now if Bob Ryan will just pay attention!

Sorry about that Hardsheller - I was out for a few days.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Let us "see" how The MAIN peronality of Heaven (God HIMSELF) MOURNS over the lost!

And let us reflect on the fact that we will SEE HIM as HE IS for we will be LIKE HIM. For WE have been "given the mind of Christ" 1Cor 2.

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

So is this "REAL" love?? Like A PARENT weeping over a child lost?? (Read Matt 23 if you doubt it!!)

How then do WE have the mind of Christ while anticipating that INTEAD of the compassion above we shall "hate hate hate" a precious child as we watch them burn in hell??

Certainly it is not the mind of Christ (THE UNCHANGING GOD) that we see in the word of God quoted above!!

So in view of THESE texts "Wiping away tears" HAS MEANING!

In Christ,

Bob