Rapture in 70 AD

[asterisktom]

Pretierist view, that denies thebodily resurrection of jesus and the saints, as we will have a spiritual resurrection, and they hold to new heavens/new earth as NOT the millinium, or final state, but a spiritual state when God destroyed isreal and installed new Covenant!

Wow. That is some run-on sentence. I agree with some of that (far as I understand it) and disagree with other parts.

You don't understand Preterism, to begin with. We do not deny the bodily resurrection of Christ.

How can I take any of the rest of what you write seriously when you are so wrong on something so important and basic?

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow. That is some run-on sentence. I agree with some of that (far as I understand it) and disagree with other parts.

You don't understand Preterism, to begin with. We do not deny the bodily resurrection of Christ.

How can I take any of the rest of what you write seriously when you are so wrong on something so important and basic?

you deny that he is still the God/Man, that saints will be resurrected in a physical body/glorified, that there will be a millinium, that there will be a literal new heavens and new earth in a physical fashion, correct?

 

[asterisktom]

you deny that he is still the God/Man, that saints will be resurrected in a physical body/glorified, that there will be a millinium, that there will be a literal new heavens and new earth in a physical fashion, correct?

I affirm that Christ is what he was throughout eternity past; immortal, invisible, spiritual. Yes, that would be without the limits of a physical body. It was necessary for Him to be physical during the Incarnation and for the Resurrection. It is not necessary for Him to be so now. We shall be like Him. He needn't be like us, nor remain forever this way.

As for the rest of your points, yes, I deny all those.

 

[Yeshua1]

I affirm that Christ is what he was throughout eternity past; immortal, invisible, spiritual. Yes, that would be without the limits of a physical body. It was necessary for Him to be physical during the Incarnation and for the Resurrection. It is not necessary for Him to be so now. We shall be like Him. He needn't be like us, nor remain forever this way.

As for the rest of your points, yes, I deny all those.

Do you deny that jesus is right now both God/man in heaven? That the same body that he died in was very same Body raised up in?

that we be raised up physical bodilyform also?

 

[asterisktom]

Do you deny that jesus is right now both God/man in heaven? That the same body that he died in was very same Body raised up in?

that we be raised up physical bodilyform also?

I get tired of repeating myself. Read my comments again.

 

[Yeshua1]

I get tired of repeating myself. Read my comments again.

bible states that God raised Him up in SAME body, correct?

Physical body was glorified, correct?

He still has scars, and is still natured God/Human, correct?

 

[agedman]

bible states that God raised Him up in SAME body, correct?

Physical body was glorified, correct?

He still has scars, and is still natured God/Human, correct?

Yeshua1, add to that that the promise given upon ascension was “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

The Scriptures further state that at the second coming "EVERY eye shall see Him."

That didn't happen in 70AD. History bears record of that by the absence of "every eye" seeing Him.

None of the Roman rulers witnessed the return of Christ.

Josephus didn't write in his historical accounting of seeing the return of Christ.

The Apostle John, his student Polycarp and Polycarp's student Irenaeus have no record of the return of Christ.

No writings by any other culture of the first century have any record of the return of Christ.

Not only has there been no recognition of a return of Christ, but there has not been a reckoning by Christ described in the Scriptures: 2 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done"

 

[saturneptune]

I get tired of repeating myself. Read my comments again.

Tom,
I actually took the time to watch the seven hour series on Victorious Eschatology. The speaker was very compelling. He talks about the three questions from Matthew. I can actually follow his reasoning on the first two, which is not related to the visible return of the Lord. The way he explains it makes some of the pieces of the puzzle fall into place. I need to watch the explanation about the third question again. At one point, he mentioned he believes in a visible return of the Lord in the future, but not sure I fully understood him. On the first two questions, I will have to read lots more, but do have an open mind about the subject.

 

[asterisktom]

Tom,
I actually took the time to watch the seven hour series on Victorious Eschatology. The speaker was very compelling. He talks about the three questions from Matthew. I can actually follow his reasoning on the first two, which is not related to the visible return of the Lord. The way he explains it makes some of the pieces of the puzzle fall into place. I need to watch the explanation about the third question again. At one point, he mentioned he believes in a visible return of the Lord in the future, but not sure I fully understood him. On the first two questions, I will have to read lots more, but do have an open mind about the subject.

I don't know anything about this man whose video you watched, other than the quick read I did of some of the Amazon comments on his book. But he sounds like he teaches what I used to believe, I was Partial-Preterist. But, personally speaking, I could not maintain that position, in great part because of this very Olivet Discourse. Especially when comparing Matthew with Luke.

 

[thomas15]

I see that the half-wits have not left the building.
Too bad.

 

[kyredneck]

I see that the half-wits have not left the building.
Too bad.

Hadn't seen any for a while until you showed back up.

 

[asterisktom]

bible states that God raised Him up in SAME body, correct?

Physical body was glorified, correct?

He still has scars, and is still natured God/Human, correct?

I guess I will answer this, lest someone think I am avoiding these questions.

1. Yes, God raised Him up in the same body.
2. Yes, He was glorified, with glory that He had with the Father, per His prayer recorded in John.
3. No, He does not still have scars. Why should He? And, no - definitely not - He did not change His eternal divine nature into something less than perfect.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I guess I will answer this, lest someone think I am avoiding these questions.

1. Yes, God raised Him up in the same body.
2. Yes, He was glorified, with glory that He had with the Father, per His prayer recorded in John.
3. No, He does not still have scars. Why should He? And, no - definitely not - He did not change His eternal divine nature into something less than perfect.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

In the above verse, we clearly see Jesus telling Thomas to behold His hands and to thrust his finger into His side.

It is quite clear that Jesus had the scars of the crucifixion a week after His resurrection.

When did He lose those scars, Tom? The Bible does not say He lost them. As a matter of fact, later on we read:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This same Jesus shall come again in like manner.

Now, it can be argued that the "in like manner" is referring to His return in the clouds as Paul preached to the Thessalonians would happen, but it could also mean that He would have the same battle scars He received at His trial and crucifixion.

I believe He will have His scars as He is "this same Jesus".

 

[HisWitness]

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

In the above verse, we clearly see Jesus telling Thomas to behold His hands and to thrust his finger into His side.

It is quite clear that Jesus had the scars of the crucifixion a week after His resurrection.

When did He lose those scars, Tom? The Bible does not say He lost them. As a matter of fact, later on we read:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This same Jesus shall come again in like manner.

Now, it can be argued that the "in like manner" is referring to His return in the clouds as Paul preached to the Thessalonians would happen, but it could also mean that He would have the same battle scars He received at His trial and crucifixion.

I believe He will have His scars as He is "this same Jesus".

what about when John seen him in his Glory in revelation--it wasn't John talking about some scars on him---BUT falling at his feet as a dead man because of the Glory of Yah's Son

 

[saturneptune]

I affirm that Christ is what he was throughout eternity past; immortal, invisible, spiritual. Yes, that would be without the limits of a physical body. It was necessary for Him to be physical during the Incarnation and for the Resurrection. It is not necessary for Him to be so now. We shall be like Him. He needn't be like us, nor remain forever this way.

As for the rest of your points, yes, I deny all those.

In what little literature I have read about the Preterist positions, is it not a fact that only the first two parts of the question from Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD. My understanding is that they still believe in a visible return of the Lord at some future date, in relation to the last part of the question.

 

[HisWitness]

In what little literature I have read about the Preterist positions, is it not a fact that only the first two parts of the question from Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD. My understanding is that they still believe in a visible return of the Lord at some future date, in relation to the last part of the question.

partial preterists don't hold that ALL like the Messiah said would be fulfilled before that generation passed-actually happened at ad 70---but some is still future for them.

But the Messiah said ALL would be fulfilled before that Generation passed !!!

 

[asterisktom]

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

In the above verse, we clearly see Jesus telling Thomas to behold His hands and to thrust his finger into His side.

It is quite clear that Jesus had the scars of the crucifixion a week after His resurrection.

You wasted typing here. We agree on this.

When did He lose those scars, Tom? The Bible does not say He lost them.

Arguing from silence. The Bible also does not say He will keep them forever.

As a matter of fact, later on we read:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This same Jesus shall come again in like manner.

Now, it can be argued that the "in like manner" is referring to His return in the clouds as Paul preached to the Thessalonians would happen, but it could also mean that He would have the same battle scars He received at His trial and crucifixion.

I believe He will have His scars as He is "this same Jesus".

"Like manner" is an adverbial phrase. I t refers to the way His return was to have been. In context "a cloud took Him out of their sight". His departure was invisible. Luke does not say "They kept looking into He was just a dot in the sky." No. The cloud obscured their vision of Him. That cloud is important.

If Luke had said, "He will return in like form" then you would have a compelling argument.

But he doesn't. So you don't.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You wasted typing here. We agree on this.

Arguing from silence. The Bible also does not say He will keep them forever.


"Like manner" is an adverbial phrase. I t refers to the way His return was to have been. In context "a cloud took Him out of their sight". His departure was invisible. Luke does not say "They kept looking into He was just a dot in the sky." No. The cloud obscured their vision of Him. That cloud is important.

If Luke had said, "He will return in like form" then you would have a compelling argument.

But he doesn't. So you don't.

You likewise are arguing from silence when you say He has no scars.

This same Jesus implies in like form. If He came back in another form, He would not be "this same Jesus".

 

[asterisktom]

In what little literature I have read about the Preterist positions, is it not a fact that only the first two parts of the question from Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD. My understanding is that they still believe in a visible return of the Lord at some future date, in relation to the last part of the question.

The partial Preterists - which is what I was for a while - do believe in what you wrote. However, full Preterists don't. I believe that all of Matthew 24, as well as the other Parousian cross-references in Mark, Luke, and John have already happened.

But it might be helpful if you point out exactly where in Matt 24 (or elsewhere) you see the still-future section. Then I will be quite willing to discuss that particular passage or verse.

 

[asterisktom]

You likewise are arguing from silence when you say He has no scars.

This same Jesus implies in like form. If He came back in another form, He would not be "this same Jesus".

Was He the same Jesus throughout the Incarnation?
Before the Incarnation?