Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

[windcatcher]

I'm really beginning to wonder about my understanding of these times: When I was quite young, I remember Revelations being taught and my pastor presented a pre-trib and post-trib study and heavily leaned towards pre-trib rapture. I did my own study, at that time, within the context of my understanding came across a verse or two which I felt settled the question that the rapture would occur pre-trib. It seems this is the most popular thought of Bible studies and fiction books based upon such.......

But time has passed, and my reading of the Bible has continued: A question rises in me, where in the Bible does it speak of a 'Tribulation Period" and the relationship of the church to it? The disciples asked Jesus about the signs of the end.... and Jesus gave them general and specific signs then comforted them: I don't recall exactly, but something like: in this world you shall have tribulations but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world. The early church anticipated the return of Christ at any time..... it was immenent to them even though Christ had just risen a short while before. I can find that the Bible does speak of 7 years of tribulation but it is not clear to me, now, that the rappture preceeds the beginning of this.

The temple must be built and the sacrifices restarted in order for the anti-christ to enter and perform abominations: The church is encouraged to be faithful to the end. It seems to me that the admonition to the church regarding holding fast, being faithful, continue through much of the events during the 7 years of tribulation until just before the great day of the LORD, or the day of wrath.

If this latter is likely, would it change the directions of some ministries in the church? Would we be more motivated to increase personal outreach and collective outreaches, to build up networks and affiliations within our community to include other churches, to develope an interest in the strengths and weaknesses and needs both within each congregation and within the larger community; to develop ministries which are both the Gospel warning and preparation for the hard times ahead. Would we be more interested in building big buildings and encumbering debt upon our members? Would we take more seriously the voluntary identification of the church with the world through corporate license.... or would we start considering ways to 'come out of her, my people'?

But, first, I want to know, are there any others here that have wondered about the timing of the rapture? My hunch is that there is a lot of complacency upon entering into debts and obligations being made to build larger programs and bigger buildings with many thinking and believing 'oh well, if the times change, and it takes a days wage for daily bread, and oil is scarce or protected..... what then...... the church will be raptured out of its obligations and we will be raptured out of our personal debts? And if there are strangers that we have for neighbors, what benefit is it to know them? (I know some of this implies motives that are more carnal than spiritual....... but look inside the church and though many are sincere in faith, many and many more have not the experience or edification for deeper walk of faith.)

 

[StefanM]

I believe in a "Mid-trib" rapture. Although, I like to call it (as others have done) a "pre-trib" rapture because I think that the last half of the 7 year period is the "Great Tribulation," not the entire 7 years.

 

[DonnaMartinez]

Ok, I'll try to something, but keep in mind I am not the best at end times things.

I believe in a pre-trib rapture because of Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The temple must be built and the sacrifices restarted in order for the anti-christ to enter and perform abominations

This (what I'm about to say) is not biblical, but I did find it interesting. I saw on A&E or Discovery or something about a man who already had the blueprints made out for the temple, and his comments were basically all they were waiting on was the ark of the covenant, and the OK to begin building. I saw on "Naked Archaeologist" a few years back that there is evidence to support the idea the temple was not built exactly where the dome of the rock is, but a tad over from it. The idea being that it is possible for the dome of the rock AND the temple to co-exist. This would eliminate the idea that the dome of the rock has to be tore down to build the temple. Again - that is off TV, not saying it is supreme and correct, I just found it interesting.

 

[windcatcher]

StefanM and DonnaMartinez,
I wish to thank you both for giving your input and keeping it to the subject of the timing of the rapture.

(I apologize to all, that I sort of went off the deep end suggesting the impact of teaching and beliefs upon the direction and emphasis of church and individual ministries. I really meant to save that question for another thread and possibly a different forum.... if it seemed there might be enough difference to generate discussion.)

Yes, in my own family there are those (most) who are pre-trib; then my brother is mid-trib, and my own pre-trib stand is thoughtfully considering the possibility of a pre-wrath rapture somewhere near the end of the 7 years.

I do hope more will post to this question, or present outline or studies....if they've gone that far, to add to this discussion.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good afternoon.

Early in my Christian life, I was used to believe in pretrib rapture, because I was taught by IFB churches, and read baptist books like, Sword of the Lord, etc. I thought IFB doctrines are sound and fundamental teaching with truths follow the Bible correctly.

One day, my friends want me to read in 2 Thess. 2:1-3. I told them, "when I read verses and sign it same time, I must follow and agree what God's Word says." When I looked at verse 2, it hits me so hard. I understood it clear. I cannot resist it. I accept what verse 2 saying. Verse 3 clearly telling us, verse 2 says, do not let anyone decieve you of any meaning(teachings, rumours) say that the day of Christ is already past(verse 2). Paul says, 'day shall NOT come' till we shall see falling away first, and the revealed of the man of sin. Paul means that, day of Christ(rapture-verse 1) shall NOT come till we must see 'falling away' first. What is 'falling away' means? Pretribs saying, 'falling away' means rapture. But, not what in Greel actual saying. In Greek word for 'falling away' means 'apostasia'. It defines, depart from faith, depart from truth. Pretribs saying 'departure' could mean for rapture. But, the Bible doesn't support men's explaining.

Because, rapture is speak of 'caught UP' of 1 Thess. 4:17. Up is opposite of down.

Rapture is a supernatural force causes come from God to take us in the spirit.

For example in Acts 8:35-40. When after Philip baptized eunuch, immediately the spirit of the Lord took Philip away in the air. Philip disappeared quickly. Verse 39 says, "the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, the the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." "Caught away" is a supernatural force caused by the Holy Spirit. I do believe Philip's both body and soul were took away literally.

Anyway, now back to 2 Thess. 2:3.

"Falling away" is not a supernatural force, neither it supports the idea of rapture.

Because, Paul told us, "day shall NOT come". What' day' of 2 Thess. 2:3 speaks of? It contexts with verse 1 and 2 talking about our gathering together at the coming of the Lord shall be in the 'Day of Christ'. So, that mean, our gathering together(day of Christ) shall NOT come till we shall see come a falling away first, and the revealed of the man of sin. Obivously, this cannot be pretribulational. Because, Paul told us, we shall see two things must come to pass first before our gathering together.

2 Thess. 2:3 tells us, we must see apostasy first, even, we already see apostasy is happening everywhere today long time ago to now. Many Christians are fall away from the Lord, many churches turned into false doctrines, the truly reveivals are fading away already, etc. THEN, Paul tells us, we shall see the man of sin to be revealed first before our gathering together. 'The man of sin' is the picture of Antichrist. We shall see Antichrist to be revealed first before rapture. So, this is clear telling us, it cannot be pretribulational.

Also, Matthew 24:29-31 is probably the clearest passage of the Bible telling us, the timing of Christ's coming. Matthew 24:29-31 telling us, it shall be immediatelt AFTER the tribulation, then the signs of comsics up in the air shall be shaken, and the trumpet shall be sounded, the power and glory of Christ shall be appear, the angels shall gathering all elects(saints) from the four winds(north, south, west, and east) of the world. This is very clear picture of posttribulation rapture.

There is not a single clear verse or passage find anywhere in Bible saying rapture shall be occur before tribulation.

Because. pretribulationism doctrine, itself teaching us that, Christ will come again two times. But, the Bible doesn't saying.

Acts 1:11; Heb. 9:28; Rev. 1:7; Rev. 22:20 and many other verses telling us, Christ shall come again at ONCE.

Early Church doesn't teach pretribulationism, because, that doctrine was not yet existed during early church history till 19th Century.

I rather follow the Bible what it saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[just-want-peace]

I make no claim to being "intellectually knowledgable" on this subject, but I have read various views on the topic.

Without an extensive dialog on this, my belief is Pre-trib.

Of course there are scriptures that, depending on how you interpret them, can "prove " any of the views, BUT as a literalist, and taking all the references in context, I feel the case for pre-trib is by far the most accurate as to the scripture's teaching.

IOW, while still having some questions, the pre-trib is most consistent, IMHO, with the Word.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

just-want-peace,

If you feel pretrib is sound and truth in the Bible. Then, you have to prove us verse to support pretrib rapture. Please list verses of 'pretrib'. I would be happy to rebutal on these list verses of 'pretrib', which you will given them in the next post.

I know pretribulationism doctrine well. Because it is man-making doctrine.

Please give us the list of verses which prove of pretrib rapture. I would be happy to rebuttal on them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[MB]

just-want-peace,

If you feel pretrib is sound and truth in the Bible. Then, you have to prove us verse to support pretrib rapture. Please list verses of 'pretrib'. I would be happy to rebutal on these list verses of 'pretrib', which you will given them in the next post.

I know pretribulationism doctrine well. Because it is man-making doctrine.

Please give us the list of verses which prove of pretrib rapture. I would be happy to rebuttal on them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I believe in a pretrib rapture as well. If we live through the tribulation which begins at the revealing of the Anti- christ. then we will be suffering the temptations and trials of all who live here at that time. It's called tribulation period because the whole seven years is a time of trials or, testing. Some want to devide it up like the first half will be liveable.
The tribulation can't happen until he who restrains, or holds back sin is taken out of the way. This is the Holy Spirit who lives with in each Christian. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit that is promised to be our comforter in this life can be taken with out taking the saved as well? If He were taken then God will have broken His promise by leaving us here to suffer. God doesn't break promises.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The first event recorded in Revelations is the coming of our Lord in the clouds Rev 1:7 everything falls apart from there you can argue 'till the cows come home but the order of the ends time period starts with His appearing in the clouds.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The coming and the rapture are two separate events because the Saints are with Him when He sets foot on the mountain top. Christ doesn't come to rapture us He sends His angles to rapture us.
If the rapture happens after the tribulation then we would know the hour of His coming by knowing when it started until the end of the trib.
ia

 

[just-want-peace]

DeafPosttrib:

If you feel pretrib is sound and truth in the Bible. Then, you have to prove us verse to support pretrib rapture. Please list verses of 'pretrib'. I would be happy to rebutal on these list verses of 'pretrib', which you will given them in the next post.

No DP, I DO NOT have to prove to you verses showing pre-trib. I am merely answering the OP and stating my belief and why; I am NOT trying to convince you or anyone else to convert to my view.

I'm not interested in your rebuttal, cuz as I said I've read a whole lot on the subject and my conclusion is as stated. I would estimate that 90%(+/-) of the opposing interpretations come from not accepting scripture, as written, literally, and trying to make it say something other than the plain sense as written.

If you choose to take His word and say that it means other than what IS said, that's your choice, but I do not care to debate same.

As I said, I giving MY opinion; not trying to convince anyone else.

 

[Tom Butler]

In Post #8 MB said:

The tribulation can't happen until he who restrains, or holds back sin is taken out of the way. This is the Holy Spirit who lives with in each Christian. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit that is promised to be our comforter in this life can be taken with out taking the saved as well? If He were taken then God will have broken His promise by leaving us here to suffer.

This is a common pre-trib view, that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The problem is, that nowhere is such explicitly stated in scripture. If one gets this wrong, then a whole bunch of other things fall with it.

I find this to be true of other passages cited by pre-tribs. They will quote a scripture and say flatly, "this is the rapture." One example is Rev 4:1, where John hears a voice from heaven saying "Come up hither." Ah, says the pre-tribber, that's the rapture. No exegesis, just a flat statement.

This view would be more persuasive if these flat assertions were supported by more scripture.

 

[StefanM]

In Post #8 MB said:


This is a common pre-trib view, that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The problem is, that nowhere is such explicitly stated in scripture. If one gets this wrong, then a whole bunch of other things fall with it.

Not to mention the fact that even if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, the passage doesn't have to mean that the Holy Spirit is "removed from the earth" so to speak (as if God were not omnipresent anyhow). It could simply mean that the Holy Spirit "gets out of the way" to let the process go on.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Not to mention the fact that even if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, the passage doesn't have to mean that the Holy Spirit is "removed from the earth" so to speak (as if God were not omnipresent anyhow). It could simply mean that the Holy Spirit "gets out of the way" to let the process go on.

Defender's Bible Notes
2 Thessalonians 2:7

2:7 letteth. The Holy Spirit, through the true Church, “letteth” (that is, delays, or hinders) the revelation of the son of perdition. In effect, He will be “taken out of the way” when all those He indwells and guides are caught up to meet the Lord. Of course, since He is omnipresent, He will still be present and working on earth, though not through the Church.


2 Thessalonians 2:7

2:7 let. The English word “let” is derived from the Old English laetan, which in turn came from the ancient Teutonic. Our modern word “late” is from the same source, the original meaning of laetan being “to make late” or “delay.” Thus, this word, as used in this verse, meant “make late” or “delay.” By a strange permutation of language meanings, it has in more recent times come to mean “permit,” almost the opposite of its original meaning.

 

[StefanM]

Defender's Bible Notes
2 Thessalonians 2:7

2:7 letteth. The Holy Spirit, through the true Church, “letteth” (that is, delays, or hinders) the revelation of the son of perdition. In effect, He will be “taken out of the way” when all those He indwells and guides are caught up to meet the Lord. Of course, since He is omnipresent, He will still be present and working on earth, though not through the Church.


2 Thessalonians 2:7

2:7 let. The English word “let” is derived from the Old English laetan, which in turn came from the ancient Teutonic. Our modern word “late” is from the same source, the original meaning of laetan being “to make late” or “delay.” Thus, this word, as used in this verse, meant “make late” or “delay.” By a strange permutation of language meanings, it has in more recent times come to mean “permit,” almost the opposite of its original meaning.

That's one person's interpretation. The text allows can't be right a different interpretation also. I'm not saying that this opinion must be wrong, only that it might not be right.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good morning.

Pretribs often emphasis Rev. 3:10 is the proof of pretrib rapture. Because it says, "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is the picture of rapture.

I want to discuss on Rev. 3:10. The scene of Rev. 3:10 doesn't mentioned:

gathering together of the saints
resurrection
Christ descends from heaven
second coming
seven year of Tribulation Period


Nothing saying in this scene.

Secondly, Rev. 3:10 was given to a specific local church of year around 95 A.D. - Church of Philadelphia(Rev. 3:7). This verse is not apply to whole body of the church.

"Keep" of Rev. 3:10 means to protect or guard. "Keep" is not the picture of rapture.

In John 17:15, Christ said to disciples, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

"Take them out of the world" sounds like as 'rapture out of the earth' to me.

Christ means that, Christ asked His Father in the heaven, not to remove saints out from the earth. But, He asked His Father to protect or care his children from the evil.

That means, God is always with us, even, while we are facing times of trials, temptations, persecutions, etc. He doesn't forsake us.

Important notice, Rev. 3:10a says, "Because thou hast KEPT THE WORD of my patience". Christ knew the church of Philadelphia did kept His word(commandments), so, therefore, Christ did protect them from their trials.

Evidently, the church of Philadelphia was did actual faced trials, persecutions, and temptations in their time. It already happened to them.

1 Cor. 10:13 is a perfect example of Rev. 3:10. It says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

God knows our weakeness areas of facing temptations of sins. God is always protecting us. But, we are responsiblity to flee from being fall in temptation. We are not God's robot. We are soldeir of Christ. We have to fight against sins.

Joseph did faced temptation of master's wife. She tried to tempt him for sex (Gen. 39:7-20). Joseph refused. She was not gave up on him. She tried to tempt him again. When she holds his garment, immediately he fled away. He was did the right to avoid fall into temptation.

Same with us. We are facing trials, persecutions, and temptstions daily in our lifetime.

Matthew Henry Commentary explained on Rev. 3:10 clearly, it says; "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in a hour of temptation. By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in TIMES of peace will make them fruitful in TIMES of persecution:"

Rev. 3:10 have do nothing with rapture or second coming. This is talking about facing temptations.

Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep his commandments, then God would protect us while we are facing our times of trials and temptations. OR, if we do not commandments, then, God would not protect us while facing temptations, we might fall into them.

Understand clear?

In the next post, I will discuss on 2 Thess. 2:6-7.

To be continued...

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I would like to add something to say on "hour" of Rev. 3:10.

Christ doesn't saying, "hour of temptation" is so called, 'seven year of Tribulation Period'.

Pretrib's intepreting of Rev. 3:10 - 'hour of temptation' is so called, "seven year of Tribulation period" is men-making doctrine.

That why I reject their teaching according Colossians 2:8.

Hour means time, period, era. It could be last long, or last short.

When after Lord's Supper is over. Christ asked Peter, John, and James to come with him for praying toegther in the garden. They were came with Him, and did watched him praying, but, they were very tired and they suddenly fell asleep while Christ praying to his Father. When after Christ finished his prayer. He saw them asleep, and He said to them, "Sleep on now, take your rest, behold, the HOUR is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners." - Matthew 26:45

Christ means that, the TIME has ARRIVED for Christ to be delivery for Calvary into the hands of sinners. 'Hour' is not literal mean exactly length of 60 minutes equal one hour. Hour means, TIME is to arrived. Christ was not died 60 minutes later after he told to his disciples. Christ died about 12 hours later at around 3 pm in the afternoon. 'Hour' of Matt. 26:45 ran last for 12 hours in a short time.

Another example of Rev. 3:10 finds in Rev. 2:10 says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation TEN DAYS be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

"tribulation ten days", it don't mean to take literal exactly of length specific ten days. It represents that they(Church of Smyrna) were facing their persecutions in a short time last like as one week or few days, in their suffering dying to death.

Christ knew the church of Smyrna already faced persecutions and their tormenting, they did endured their suffering till their death.

Even, Rev. 2:10 apply to us as indidvidual as Church, that we must be endure trials and persecutions to the end, then we shall be saved - Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

Christ never, never saying of 'hour of temptation' is "seven year of Tribulation Period". Men just added unto God's Word in their own guesswork. That why I not agree with them - Col. 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Pretribs intepreting 'he' of 2 Thess. 2:7 is the identify of Holy Spirit as restrainer.

But, Apostle Paul doesn't saying, 'he' is the Holy Spirit.

Also, pretribs didn't follow the context of 2 Thess. 2:3-8 correctly.

My understanding of 'he - 2 Thess. 2:7 is speak of Satan. How do I know?

Let start with context.

2 Thess. 2:3-9:

"man of sin" - vs. 3

"the son of perdition" - vs. 3

"himself" - vs. 4

"he" - vs. 4

"himself" - vs. 4

"he" - vs. 4

"he" - vs. 6

"his" - vs. 6

"he" - vs. 7

"he" - vs. 7

"WICKED" - vs. 8

"him" - vs. 9

"SATAN" - vs. 9.

The context of `2 Thess. 2:3-9 focus on Satan. None of 'Holy Spirit' is mentioned in this passage of context at all.

"he be taken out of the way" of 2 Thess. 2:7 is not the picture of rapture.

Before we get arrive verse 7. First, we have to look at verse 5 says, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Early in my Christian life, I was struggle to understand what 2 Thess. 2:5 was talking about. Then, later I finally got understand clear what verse 5 is talking about.

I found there is a refer verse of 2 Thess. 2:5, it finds in 1 Thess. 3:4 says, "For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation, even as it came to pass, and ye know."

There are three important keys of "when we were with you", "TOLD you", and "ye KNOW" - verse 4. Look to 2 Thess. 2:5 again, it says, "Remember ye not, when I was yet WITH you, ...I TOLD you these things."

Notice there is compare of 1 Thess. 3:4 & 2 Thess. 2:5-

"when we were WITH YOU" - 1 Thess. 3:4

""when I was yet WITH YOU" - 2 Thess. 2:5

and

"we TOLD YOU" - 1 Thess. 3:4

"I TOLD YOU" - 2 Thess. 2:6

Also, one more thing of compare with 1 Thess. 3:4 and 2 Thess. 2:6.

"YE KNOW" - 1 Thess. 3:4

"And now YE KNOW - 2 Thess. 2:6

So, what 1 Thess. 3:4 was talking about? Before we get arrive verse 4, first, we have to look at 1 Thess. 3:3 says, "That no man should be moved by these afflications: for yourselves KNOW that we are appointed thereunto."

What we are appointed for??

We are appointed for tribulations.

Does that mean, we are appiinted for God's wrath?

No.

Tribulations is not the meaning of God's wrath.

Both tribulation and God's wrath are difference.

Why, we are appointed for tribulations? - 1 Thess. 3:3-4

Because, Jesus already suffering tribulations for us, so, therefore, we should follow his examples - 1 Peter 2:1. Also, in John 16:33 too.

We must go through much of tribulations first before Christ comes - Acts 14:22; & 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

So, therefore, Apostle Paul doesn't teaching pretribulational find anywhere in his 13 epistles. Neither, Christ teaching pretribulational in his ministry in the four gospels either.

Now, let focus on 2 Thess. 2:5, what Paul was talking about.

Before we get arrive 2 Thess. 2:5, first we have to read the first epistle of Thessalonians, to understand what Paul was talking about, SO, we shall be able to understand 2 Thess. 2:5 better in the next second epistle of Thessalonians.

So, what 2 Thess. 2:5 is talking about?

Firstly, we have to read verse 3 and 4 before we read verse 5.

Verse 3 and 4 say,

"Let no man deceive you by any means (vs. 2) for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Three things must come to pass first BEFORE our gathering together unto Christ(Day of Christ- second coming) - 1. Apostasy 2. Satan shall be revealed 3. Persecution against Church

I better stop this post. Because this post is already long. So, I better cut this post into part two to be continue in the next post.

To be continued...

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Let's continue.

2 Thess. 2:3-4 tellinng us, do not believe or listen anyone saying to us that Christ is already arrived or past, that we missed our gathering together. Paul tells us, we must face three things must come to pass first before our gathering together at his coming (vs. 1). We must face three things: 1. Apostasy 2. Satan shall be revealed 3. Presecutions

Clear, this passage is posttribulational.

We already seen apostasy everywhere in the world today. It already happen during Early Church histroy to today. But, the conditions of apostasy is increasing climax throughout Church history to today.

1 Tim. 4:1 - "some shall depart from the truth"; 2 Tim. 3:1-7; and 2 Tim. 4:3 -"they will not endure sound doctrine", these are already fulfiiled of 2 Thess. 2:3 - "falling away". These are apostasy.

Secondly, follow apostasy happening, we will face the revealed of Satan. My understanding of 2 Thess. 2:3,4 and 7-9 explaining talk about the work of Satan. Right now, it is mystery(2 Thess 2:7), because Satan is not yet revealed. Why? Because, Satan is right now holding back from being to be revealed. 2 Thess. 2:6-7 telling us very clear that, Satan is NOW holding back by God. As it is described in Rev. 20:1-3 saying that Satan is being chained and cast in the bottomless of pit by Christ. Rev. 20:1-3 is the picture of Satan was defeated by Calvary. Satan is now no longer deceived the nations. Because, Christ already gave the "key"(Rev. 20:1) to the Church of Matt. 16:18-19, the power, to spreading the gospel over the world - Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 1:8. Satan cannot stope Church from spreadin the gospel to the nations.

2 Thess. 2:6 tells us, Satan is NOW holding back from being to be revealed. Rev. 17:8 tells us, Satan - "the beast that thou sawest was (past) and is NOT (present time), and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (future).

Rev. 17:9 shows us, that Satan "is NOT" is mean that, He is not yet revealed, because he is NOW holding back by God.

Ok, let's back to 2 Thess. 2:6. It says, "And NOW ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

Paul tells us, we know that, Satan is NOW holding back, means that, he is in bottomless pit. "cast in the bottomless pit" of Rev. 20:1 is not a literal thing or place. It represents that Satan is now limited or being restraining by God, to prevent Satan from deceive the nations, because, Christ already give the 'key' (power & authority) to Church to spreading the gospel to all nations -Matt. 16:18-19; Matt. 28:18-20; and Acts 1:8. God's purpose of prevent Satan from deceive the nations, because God desires all nations to be saved.

When God sees the apostasy become worsen lately in our present time or in the near future, it will make God becomes fed up and wrath upon Christians for falling away from the truth, faith, compromsing with the world, etc. Then, God knows when the right time to come.

Now, let's look 2 Thess. 2:7. It says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who NOW letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Notice, it says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work". It speaks of evil system is already working over the world since Early Church to today. It finds in 1 John 2:18 and 1 John 4:3 telling us, that we heard that the antichrist is come, even they are already gone out in the world today. "Antichrist" means person who is opposite against God, there are too many people out there in the world, are deny that Christ came in flesh that he is God - 1 John 4:2-3.

Also, "mystery of iniquity" of 2 Thess. 2:7 is described same as Babylon of Revelation chapter 17 and 18. Babylon is already existing in the world long time ago to today.

While Satan is holding back by God same time, the wicked system of Revelation chapter 17 is already working in the world since early Church history to present day. We know Satan is called, "prince of the air", even, he is an angel. He have no literal body, neither have flesh and blood. He is invisible. Because he is spirit as angel.

But, I believe Satan will transform into man as visible to deceive the world. Because, during Old Testament time, Christ was an angel. He was not in flesh. He was Spirit. When he came down to earth, to became flesh to saved us from sins. Christ done many miracles, and to revealed to people, that He is the truly Son of God as Messiah. I believe that, Satan will do the same thing to copy Christ's ways. Satan shall be revealed by transform into man as visible. He will do many miracles things to deceive the world for believing him that is he is true God.

Now, back to 2 Thess. 2:7. Notice, it says, "only he who now letteth will let". "Letteth" means holding back or hinder. It tells us, Satan is now holding back from being to be revealed. Notice 'will let' show it is italic words in King James Version. It shows that, it is not find in Greek translation. The translators of 1611 A.V. decided to added it to make it more clear. So, in Greek translation of 2 Thess. 2:7 gives us the picture, it says, Satan is now letteth(holding).

So, look 2 Thess. 2:7c says, "UNTIL he be taken out of the way."

That means, right now, Satan is now holding back till the time is comes, then, Satan shall be loosed out of the midst(way).

Therefore, 2 Thess. 2:7c is not talking about rapture nothing at all. It talks about Satan shall be loosed out of the midst. 2 Thess. 2:7c is described find in Rev. 17:8- "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit", & Rev. 20:3 - "loosed" & Rev. 20:7 - "Satan shall be loosed OUT of his prson."

That means, when God sees apostasy become worsen as climax, he knows when the right time to come, then God will allow Satan to be loosed out of the mystery, and then to be revealed to deceive the world, and also, to persecute against the Church.

Notice 2 Thess. 2:8 tells us, Wicked shall be revealed for a little season(Rev. 20:3)-short time, to deceive the world, and persecute against Church. THEN, Christ shall come with power and glory to destroy Satan.

Same as 2 Thess. 2:9 tells us, 'him' is speak of Satan. he will do many miracles to deceive the world, and to persecute against Churcch("sitteth in the temple of God"-2 Thess. 2:3).

"The brightness of his coming" of 2 Thess. 2:8 is SAME as 'coming' of 2 Thess. 2:1 is speak of second coming. There is only ONE future final coming of Christ, not two comings according as what pretrib teaching.

Therefore, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 cannot be pretribulational. Because Paul tells us, we must face apostasy, revealed of Satan, and presecution must come to pass first BEFORE our gathering together at His coming. It is clear posttribulational.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[cowboymatt]

I choose none of the options listed for two reasons:

1) I don't believe that in the one verse in 1 Thessalonians where the rapture may be in view was intended by Paul in such a way. I think that instead what Paul had in mind was the resurrection at the end, not a pre-resurrection pseudo-resurrection.

2) I don't believe that the second half of Daniel or Revelation (no "s"!!!!!) are roadmaps to the end times but that instead they are comforting words to oppressed people saying metaphorically, vividly, and memorably that God will win in the end.

So since I don't think there's enough biblical evidence to warrant believing in a rapture and that Daniel and Revelation are not roadmaps for the end times, I can't answer your question.

 

[Tom Butler]

I've noticed that the idea of the restrainer being the HS produces a circular argument. It goes like this:

The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer in II Thess 2:7. When the HS is taken out of the way, it will be because those whom he indwells will have been taken out of the way, that is, the rapture. which by the way is the falling away mentioned in II Thess 2:3.

Here's the circle: Since believers will be raptured (v.3, falling away actually means catching away, which means rapture), then the HS who indwells them must go with them. And when the HS goes, Satan is now unhindered.

Seems to me that in the book of Job, God himself set the limits on Lucifer regarding Job. Why would the HS be needed for the job in the NT?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Pretrib's interpreting of 'he be taken out of the way' means Holy Spirit will be depart from the earth as rapture.

But. in Matthew 28:20, Christ said to disciples, "...lo, I am with you ALWAYS, even UNTO the END OF THE WORLD. Amen."

Christ promises us, He will never leave from us, he is always with us all the way till the end of the world.

The question is, when will be the end of the world occurs?

Seven years earlier prior the end of the world? Where in the Bible saying it?

1260 days earlier prior the end of the world?

1335 days earlier prior the end of the world?

The Bible is clear teaching us that the end of the world will be occur on the LAST day of the age according to John 6:39,40,44, and 54.

Right now, we are in the last days since after Christ ascends back to heaven . The last days have been last for nearly 2000 years. But, when the LAST DAY will be occurs on the the final day of this present age will be occurs when Christ once ascend, and both all saved and unsaved will be resurrected - John 5:28-29 & Dan. 12:2-3.

Bible teaches us, the Holy Spirit will never. never leave us and earth, He is always right present on earth. Even, in Mark 13:11 tells us, The Holy Spirit is always right present us in the world, while Christ lectured about the end times of Matthew chapter 24, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21.

There is not a hint verse find anywhere in the Bible saying that the Holy Spirit will leave us. Nothing at all.

2 Thess. 2:7 talks about Satan shall be loosed out of the midst when God knows the right time to come, then God will tell Satan to be loosed.

Same with the book of Job. When Satan went to heaven, he asked God for his permssion. Satan always submit God's Will and authority all the times. We know that, Satan is always limited, because God is the authority over everything above, earth, and hell.

Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!