Rapture Question

[Darrell C]

Enoch and Elijah are usually thought to be the Two Witnesses (Apoc 11:3-12) that return during the Tribulation because they didn’t die when they left this world.

Not everyone takes that position and think that physically both of these men died.

Enoch did not "see death" which I view as he did not experience death as most do, he was immediately translated to Sheol much the same way we will be translated from one condition to another.

Elijah was caught up to "heaven" but not, in my view, to Heaven. I do not see men going to Heaven in the Old Testament, because 1) we are told they go to Sheol, and 2) I view Christ as liberating those who had not yet been eternally redeemed which can only be accomplished by Christ (Hebrews 9:12-15). Their transgressions were redeemed by His death in their stead, thus making the imputation of His righteousness possible, thus making their entrance to God possible.

Entrance to God was not something that took place in the Old Testament. The closest thing to coming into God's presence in His realm (Heaven) is the Tabernacle and Temple, which we are told was only a parable for that time until the True came:


Hebrews 9:7-9 King James Version

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


See the link.

Men had no access to Heaven prior to the Cross. It's not my opinion, it's the clear and incontrovertible statement of Scripture.

Christ made access to Heaven possible:



11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


"Not of this building" is a contrast between Heaven and the earthly. The High Priest alone had access, in parable only, and himself only.


24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


See link. Here the holy places (the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle (and Temple)) are described as an antitype.

The High Priest of Levitical Service did not enter Heaven. Christ did. And if their High Priest did not actually enter Heaven, why would we think his exclusive access to the parable and antitype of the True, that is, Heaven itself—why would we think men did in general?

Now see who has access:


Hebrews 10:19-20 King James Version

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The veil of the Tabernacle and Temple was the veil the High Priest went through to enter the Holy of Holies.

The veil our Great High Priest went through was the Body created in the womb of Mary. He went into the presence of God by passing through the veil that the fabric of the earthly veil was a parable/figure of. The earthly was not the true, the heavenly was.

And we (the redeemed) can now enter in the Holiest (Heaven) through that veil, that is, His flesh, that is—His Death (in our stead).

So I see that beginning with "Enoch and Elijah didn't die physically" as a faulty premise to base a conclusion on.

And it has no bearing on why we can enter into Heaven in glorified bodies at the Rapture.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Many theologians believed you have to die in order to go to heaven as we think of heaven (Aquinas, STh., III q.49 a.5 ad 2).

And I would say that the Doctrine of the Rapture makes it clear that men do not have to die in order to go to Heaven.

They do, however, likely have to be glorified if they are alive.

John was "in the spirit" when he was given the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul wasn't sure if it was in the body or out of the body (in spirit only) when he was caught up to Heaven. I think it was in the spirit as is the case of John, but I am not dogmatic, but let's face it, God can allow that which He pleases. Paul may very well have been caught up in his physical form, because Paul was already redeemed on an eternal basis (whereas Enoch and Elijah were not).

So I would say as a general principle it will be when the Rapture takes place that we see men enter into Heaven without dying, but we might have an example in Paul of an eternally redeemed saint entering Heaven in his earthly body.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The only exception may be those who are alive at the end of time.

Just prior to this creation passing away we see the dead raised from sheol/hades, the sea, et cetera, and they are resurrected one and all. They will have bodies suitable for eternal separation from God. They will be judged, and go to their eternal destinies.

So in the physical sense, all will be "alive," but in a spiritual sense only those who have the Life of Christ (Eternal Life) will enter into the Kingdom. Only those born again. THat is the incontrovertible statement of Scripture, and Scripture cannot be broken.

I am not even sure of that because, due to Original Sin (Rom 5:12),

Adam was a physical man that had the Tree of Life as a means of "everlasting life."

Death in man is a result of loss of access to that Tree:


Genesis 3:22-24 King James Version

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


Sin is the result of the loss of the direct communion man had with God in the Garden.

Men sin because they are separated from God. Men die because the wages of sin is death.

ALL must die (Heb 9:27).

Not all:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 King James Version

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Isn't that something that should comfort?


1 Thessalonians 4:18 King James Version

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Also, to receive the Beatific Vision (1 Cor 13:12), that is, see the Essence of God, you must die (Ex 33:20), according to Aquinas (STh., I q.12 a.11).

Have to disagree with that. Nowhere does Paul say he has to die that he doesn't see through a glass darkly. Seeing that it is to his teaching the Doctrine of the Rapture is ascribed, I think we should heed what he has to say on the subject.

He groaned for the redeemed body:


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


And he did not make death a requirement:


2 Corinthians 5:1-4 King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


It's right there: we groan to be clothed upon with that building of God, the glorified body. That is our eternal tabernacle.

Being "found naked" is a reference to our spirits not having a body, which is the state we will be in if we do die before the Rapture (v.3).

In v.4 he says we that are in this tabernacle (the earthly body) do groan because we suffer in it. But, he says we do not groan to be unclothed, that is, we do not groan to die because this tabernacle is burdensome, but that we would be clothed upon with that heavenly body.

Mortality being swallowed up by life, and is the corruptible body being replaced with the incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). That cannot happen if we die.

So the reason one can go to Heaven without dying is due to the fact that we serve the Almighty, and He makes it possible that men will not perish. This is particularly true in the Rapture because we see that every single member of the Body that is still alive when the Church is caught up will not die physically.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

I am of the point of view that death was part of the good creation. Sin caused death to be an enemy. 1 Corinthians 15:26. Revelation 20:14.

How can sin be part of the “good” creation (prior to sin) when scripture says death entered the world by sin?

peace to you

 

[37818]

How can sin be part of the “good” creation (prior to sin) when scripture says death entered the world by sin?

Not exactly, Romans 5:12, ". . . Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: . . ." Now death existed prior to the fall. How can God warn about something that did not yet exist? Genesis 2:17? Genesis 3:2-3?

 

[Revmitchell]

Not exactly, Romans 5:12, ". . . Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: . . ." Now death existed prior to the fall. How can God warn about something that did not yet exist? Genesis 2:17? Genesis 3:2-3?

Ummm....because He is God not sure why this is a question.

 

[37818]

How can sin be part of the “good” creation (prior to sin) when scripture says death entered the world by sin?

peace to you

No. Romans 5;12 does not teach that. Death existed before Adam and Eve sinned. The world refers to mankind as in John 3:16, 1 John 5:19 and 1 John 2:2. Death was part of God's good creation. Sin caused death to become an enemy.

 

[37818]

Ummm....because He is God not sure why this is a question.

There is a false teaching that death didn't exist until the fall of man.

 

[Revmitchell]

There is a false teaching that death didn't exist until the fall of man.

Not false and purely biblical. There is no indication that death existed prior to the fall. None whatsoever

 

[37818]

Not false and purely biblical. There is no indication that death existed prior to the fall. None whatsoever

So Genesis 2;17 means what? It was before the fall. What did whales and spiders eat?

 

[Revmitchell]

So Genesis 2;17 means what? It was before the fall. What did whales and spiders eat?

Just because it was before the fall you think it means there was death? Break that down for me.

 

[LaGrange]

Hello LaGrange, I wouldn't mind taking a crack at an answer. But there are several key areas of understanding that have to be addressed in order to, I believe, rightly conclude on the matter.

The first problem I see in trying to find an answer is the presumption that it is true that men have to die in order to go to Heaven. While it is true that "fleash and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, I think we might do well to consider that in Christ's glorified body we see "flesh and bone:"


Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


So if flesh and bone can go to Heaven, as we see our Lord had, then we have to determine why "flesh and blood cannot."

I would just suggest that the reference to flesh and blood is referring to the means of receiving the Kingdom of God, not the condition one is in when they do finally go to Heaven.

Consider:


John 1:11-13 King James Version

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Being born of God (v.13) is a result of God's will. Not of blood (we are not born being members of the Kingdom), not of the will of the flesh (we do not become born of God because we determine to be), and not of the will of man (other men do not bring about being born of God in other men).

So the first point I would make is that we are not seeing a prohibition of men being alive going into Heaven. In the Rapture, we will, if we are still physically alive, be made like Christ and receive the redemption of our bodies. We will have never died, and we will, like Christ, have flesh and bone.

When we consider Christ's teaching concerning being born again, we are told no man will enter the Kingdom of God except he be born again. Two kingdoms have to be understood in the teaching as both being literal: the Kingdom God promised Israel (the Millennial Kingdom of Revelation 20), and the Kingdom of God which is the realm we enter when we are born again. Regeneration, or, New Birth, or, being born from above, or, being born of God all refer to the same thing. And no man will enter into either the Kingdom promised to Israel or the spiritual realm we have entered into when we were born of God and became sons of God.

So the answer to the question, "How can this be," is the same as the one given to Nicodemus some two thousand years ago:


John 3 King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Again, two kingdoms in view: the one Nicodemus was familiar with (he is rebuked because he limits his understanding of Christ's teaching to a physical nature, he should have been thinking along the lines of Ezekiel 36:27 an Ezekiel 37 (the valley of dry bones/dead Israel)); and the one Christ was speaking about that we who are born again understand, the spiritual rule and reign of God in the Church He would begin building at Pentecost.

No man will enter either except they be born again, and we do not have to die to receive that life. We are dead when we receive that life, and we receive eternal life because we are brought into Eternal Union with God when we a rebaptized into Christ.


9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?



Nicodemus asks "How can a man be born from above (born of God)? How can a man be born of the Spirit and water?

Christ answers his question:


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


So, we see the same thing we see in John 1:11-13, being born of God is a result of Christ coming, and here we see that the condition for man to be born from above/of God/of the Spirit is that Christ must be raised up. The picture of the brazen serpent is that whoever looked to it would not die. Similarly, we who look to Christ will, according to His teaching, will never die/perish. Physically, yes, but we have a life we did not have when we were physically conceived and born into this world.

When the Rapture takes place, we are immediately glorified (following the resurrection of those who died in Christ) and will go to be with Him forevermore. We will not die physically, and will in fact have flesh and bone as He did.


Continued...

Hi Darrell C,

I put these in my notes this way so I’m going to just copy it and past it.

DarrellC: quoted Luke 24:39, John 1:11-13

Being born of God (v.13) is a result of God's will. Not of blood (we are not born being members of the Kingdom), not of the will of the flesh (we do not become born of God because we determine to be), and not of the will of man (other men do not bring about being born of God in other men).
So the first point I would make is that we are not seeing a prohibition of men being alive going into Heaven. In the Rapture, we will, if we are still physically alive, be made like Christ and receive the redemption of our bodies. We will have never died, and we will, like Christ, have flesh and bone.
When we consider Christ's teaching concerning being born again, we are told no man will enter the Kingdom of God except he be born again. Two kingdoms have to be understood in the teaching as both being literal: the Kingdom God promised Israel (the Millennial Kingdom of Revelation 20), and the Kingdom of God which is the realm we enter when we are born again. Regeneration, or, New Birth, or, being born from above, or, being born of God all refer to the same thing. And no man will enter into either the Kingdom promised to Israel or the spiritual realm we have entered into when we were born of God and became sons of God.
So the answer to the question, "How can this be," is the same as the one given to Nicodemus some two thousand years ago:

My Comment: First, I agree that, in order to be Raptured, you would have to be born again. This still doesn’t mean that you won’t have to physically die first. All the Christians who died physically before the Rapture would have been “born again”. I really think the problem is the timing. If you moved the Rapture to the very last day, then you would have a good reason to think it may be possible to be taken up without dying, although, as I said before, even then I think you would still have to die, maybe in some mysterious way.

My Comment: When you say the “Kingdom of God which is the realm we enter when we are born again”, it means you enter the kingdom here on earth (Matt 3:2, Mark 1:15). This is what we call the Church Militant. I talk some about this in posts #15 and 19. When you have time, I would be interested in what you think of these posts.

Darrellc: quoted John 3:3-5,

Again, two kingdoms in view: the one Nicodemus was familiar with (he is rebuked because he limits his understanding of Christ's teaching to a physical nature, he should have been thinking along the lines of Ezekiel 36:27 an Ezekiel 37 (the valley of dry bones/dead Israel)); and the one Christ was speaking about that we who are born again understand, the spiritual rule and reign of God in the Church He would begin building at Pentecost.
No man will enter either except they be born again, and we do not have to die to receive that life. We are dead when we receive that life, and we receive eternal life because we are brought into Eternal Union with God when we a rebaptized into Christ.

My Comment: It’s the same here. I’m not questioning whether or not you have to be a Christian to be Raptured. You still have to die physically.

DarrellC: quoted John 3:9, 14-16

Nicodemus asks "How can a man be born from above (born of God)? How can a man be born of the Spirit and water?
Christ answers his question:
So, we see the same thing we see in John 1:11-13, being born of God is a result of Christ coming, and here we see that the condition for man to be born from above/of God/of the Spirit is that Christ must be raised up. The picture of the brazen serpent is that whoever looked to it would not die. Similarly, we who look to Christ will, according to His teaching, will never die/perish. Physically, yes, but we have a life we did not have when we were physically conceived and born into this world.
When the Rapture takes place, we are immediately glorified (following the resurrection of those who died in Christ) and will go to be with Him forevermore. We will not die physically, and will in fact have flesh and bone as He did.

My Comment: If you moved the Rapture to the last day I would basically agree with you. Why? Because after the last day the earth would be destroyed and there would be a new heaven and a new earth (Apoc 21:1). So all those on earth would then have to go somewhere. I’m not sure how you would think about that. I think most would think that the new heavens and the new earth would follow the Great White Throne Judgement (Apoc 20:11). My view is a little different.

Thanks Darrel for all your input!

 

[LaGrange]

Not everyone takes that position and think that physically both of these men died.

Enoch did not "see death" which I view as he did not experience death as most do, he was immediately translated to Sheol much the same way we will be translated from one condition to another.

Elijah was caught up to "heaven" but not, in my view, to Heaven. I do not see men going to Heaven in the Old Testament, because 1) we are told they go to Sheol, and 2) I view Christ as liberating those who had not yet been eternally redeemed which can only be accomplished by Christ (Hebrews 9:12-15). Their transgressions were redeemed by His death in their stead, thus making the imputation of His righteousness possible, thus making their entrance to God possible.

Entrance to God was not something that took place in the Old Testament. The closest thing to coming into God's presence in His realm (Heaven) is the Tabernacle and Temple, which we are told was only a parable for that time until the True came:


Hebrews 9:7-9 King James Version

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


See the link.

Men had no access to Heaven prior to the Cross. It's not my opinion, it's the clear and incontrovertible statement of Scripture.

Christ made access to Heaven possible:



11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


"Not of this building" is a contrast between Heaven and the earthly. The High Priest alone had access, in parable only, and himself only.


24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


See link. Here the holy places (the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle (and Temple)) are described as an antitype.

The High Priest of Levitical Service did not enter Heaven. Christ did. And if their High Priest did not actually enter Heaven, why would we think his exclusive access to the parable and antitype of the True, that is, Heaven itself—why would we think men did in general?

Now see who has access:


Hebrews 10:19-20 King James Version

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The veil of the Tabernacle and Temple was the veil the High Priest went through to enter the Holy of Holies.

The veil our Great High Priest went through was the Body created in the womb of Mary. He went into the presence of God by passing through the veil that the fabric of the earthly veil was a parable/figure of. The earthly was not the true, the heavenly was.

And we (the redeemed) can now enter in the Holiest (Heaven) through that veil, that is, His flesh, that is—His Death (in our stead).

So I see that beginning with "Enoch and Elijah didn't die physically" as a faulty premise to base a conclusion on.

And it has no bearing on why we can enter into Heaven in glorified bodies at the Rapture.


Continued...

DarrellC: quote (continued from post#20)

Not everyone takes that position and think that physically both of these men died.
Enoch did not "see death" which I view as he did not experience death as most do, he was immediately translated to Sheol much the same way we will be translated from one condition to another.

My Comment: In order for Enoch to go to the Bosom of Abraham, he had to die physically because it is in the upper part of hell. So who do you think are the Two Witnesses? If you think Enoch went to the Bosom of Abraham, then there has to be another witness.

Elijah was caught up to "heaven" but not, in my view, to Heaven. I do not see men going to Heaven in the Old Testament, because 1) we are told they go to Sheol, and 2) I view Christ as liberating those who had not yet been eternally redeemed which can only be accomplished by Christ (Hebrews 9:12-15). Their transgressions were redeemed by His death in their stead, thus making the imputation of His righteousness possible, thus making their entrance to God possible.
Entrance to God was not something that took place in the Old Testament. The closest thing to coming into God's presence in His realm (Heaven) is the Tabernacle and Temple, which we are told was only a parable for that time until the True came:

My Comment: I agree Elijah didn’t go to heaven as we think of heaven because the gates of heaven weren’t open. I said that already. Do you think Elijah is one of the Witnesses? Why?

DarrellC: quotes Heb 9:7-9

See the link.
Men had no access to Heaven prior to the Cross. It's not my opinion, it's the clear and incontrovertible statement of Scripture.
Christ made access to Heaven possible:

My Comment: Men may not have had access to heaven but they all had to die and they did except Elijah and Enoch.

DarrellC: quotes Heb 9:11

"Not of this building" is a contrast between Heaven and the earthly. The High Priest alone had access, in parable only, and himself only.

My Comment: Christ had access. This doesn’t answer why christians don’t have to physically die.

DarrellC: quotes Heb 9:24

See link. Here the holy places (the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle (and Temple)) are described as an antitype.
The High Priest of Levitical Service did not enter Heaven. Christ did. And if their High Priest did not actually enter Heaven, why would we think his exclusive access to the parable and antitype of the True, that is, Heaven itself—why would we think men did in general?
Now see who has access:

DarrellC: quotes Heb 10:19-20

The veil of the Tabernacle and Temple was the veil the High Priest went through to enter the Holy of Holies.
The veil our Great High Priest went through was the Body created in the womb of Mary. He went into the presence of God by passing through the veil that the fabric of the earthly veil was a parable/figure of. The earthly was not the true, the heavenly was.
And we (the redeemed) can now enter in the Holiest (Heaven) through that veil, that is, His flesh, that is—His Death (in our stead).
So I see that beginning with "Enoch and Elijah didn't die physically" as a faulty premise to base a conclusion on.
And it has no bearing on why we can enter into Heaven in glorified bodies at the Rapture.

My Comment: Christ died. We can enter that veil but we still have to die first. The reasons you are giving really don’t have anything to do with whether you have to die first. You are showing that you have to be redeemed and justified, that is, be a christian before you can enter heaven. I agree but you still haven’t explained why these Christians don’t have to die. If we follow Christ, therefore we are a christian, then we must suffer and die before we go to heaven. That’s what Christ did, He died.

 

[LaGrange]

And I would say that the Doctrine of the Rapture makes it clear that men do not have to die in order to go to Heaven.

They do, however, likely have to be glorified if they are alive.

John was "in the spirit" when he was given the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul wasn't sure if it was in the body or out of the body (in spirit only) when he was caught up to Heaven. I think it was in the spirit as is the case of John, but I am not dogmatic, but let's face it, God can allow that which He pleases. Paul may very well have been caught up in his physical form, because Paul was already redeemed on an eternal basis (whereas Enoch and Elijah were not).

So I would say as a general principle it will be when the Rapture takes place that we see men enter into Heaven without dying, but we might have an example in Paul of an eternally redeemed saint entering Heaven in his earthly body.


Continued...

DarrellC: quotes: Many theologians believed you have to die in order to go to heaven as we think of heaven (Aquinas, STh., III q.49 a.5 ad 2).

And I would say that the Doctrine of the Rapture makes it clear that men do not have to die in order to go to Heaven.
They do, however, likely have to be glorified if they are alive.
John was "in the spirit" when he was given the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

My Comment: John physically died later.

Paul wasn't sure if it was in the body or out of the body (in spirit only) when he was caught up to Heaven. I think it was in the spirit as is the case of John, but I am not dogmatic, but let's face it, God can allow that which He pleases.

My Comment: Yes God can make exceptions but why would He do that before the very end? Why to this particular group and NTHER CHRISTIANS?

Paul may very well have been caught up in his physical form, because Paul was already redeemed on an eternal basis (whereas Enoch and Elijah were not).
So I would say as a general principle it will be when the Rapture takes place that we see men enter into Heaven without dying, but we might have an example in Paul of an eternally redeemed saint entering Heaven in his earthly body.

My Comment: Paul had his head cut off according to Eusebius. So do you think Paul went to heaven permanently without physically dying? Are you referring to 1 Cor 12:2,4? Paul is speaking of himself but he says he doesn’t even know for sure if he was in his body or not. Even if he was, he still came back to earth. He didn’t stay there. I think it was a rapture (Latin = Rapt) in spirit and it says he “heard” secret words but didn’t “see” which would point to the beatific vision. This is a sign that he was returning.

 

[LaGrange]

Just prior to this creation passing away we see the dead raised from sheol/hades, the sea, et cetera, and they are resurrected one and all. They will have bodies suitable for eternal separation from God. They will be judged, and go to their eternal destinies.

So in the physical sense, all will be "alive," but in a spiritual sense only those who have the Life of Christ (Eternal Life) will enter into the Kingdom. Only those born again. THat is the incontrovertible statement of Scripture, and Scripture cannot be broken.




Adam was a physical man that had the Tree of Life as a means of "everlasting life."

Death in man is a result of loss of access to that Tree:


Genesis 3:22-24 King James Version

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


Sin is the result of the loss of the direct communion man had with God in the Garden.

Men sin because they are separated from God. Men die because the wages of sin is death.




Not all:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 King James Version

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Isn't that something that should comfort?


1 Thessalonians 4:18 King James Version

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.




Have to disagree with that. Nowhere does Paul say he has to die that he doesn't see through a glass darkly. Seeing that it is to his teaching the Doctrine of the Rapture is ascribed, I think we should heed what he has to say on the subject.

He groaned for the redeemed body:


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


And he did not make death a requirement:


2 Corinthians 5:1-4 King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


It's right there: we groan to be clothed upon with that building of God, the glorified body. That is our eternal tabernacle.

Being "found naked" is a reference to our spirits not having a body, which is the state we will be in if we do die before the Rapture (v.3).

In v.4 he says we that are in this tabernacle (the earthly body) do groan because we suffer in it. But, he says we do not groan to be unclothed, that is, we do not groan to die because this tabernacle is burdensome, but that we would be clothed upon with that heavenly body.

Mortality being swallowed up by life, and is the corruptible body being replaced with the incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). That cannot happen if we die.

So the reason one can go to Heaven without dying is due to the fact that we serve the Almighty, and He makes it possible that men will not perish. This is particularly true in the Rapture because we see that every single member of the Body that is still alive when the Church is caught up will not die physically.


God bless.

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said:The only exception may be those who are alive at the end of time.

Just prior to this creation passing away we see the dead raised from sheol/hades, the sea, et cetera, and they are resurrected one and all. They will have bodies suitable for eternal separation from God. They will be judged, and go to their eternal destinies.
So in the physical sense, all will be "alive," but in a spiritual sense only those who have the Life of Christ (Eternal Life) will enter into the Kingdom. Only those born again. THat is the incontrovertible statement of Scripture, and Scripture cannot be broken.

My Comment: I agree but notice: This is at the END OF TIME.

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said: ↑
I am not even sure of that because, due to Original Sin (Rom 5:12),

Adam was a physical man that had the Tree of Life as a means of "everlasting life."
Death in man is a result of loss of access to that Tree:

Gen 3:22-24

Sin is the result of the loss of the direct communion man had with God in the Garden.
Men sin because they are separated from God. Men die because the wages of sin is death.

My Comment: Here you are describing the effects of Original Sin. Because of this ALL men must die including Enoch and Elijah and that’s why they are coming back and dying (Apoc 11:12).

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said: ↑
ALL must die (Heb 9:27).

quotes 1 Thess 4:15-17 “we are alive”

Isn't that something that should comfort? (1 Thess 4:18)

My Comment: Notice: My quote above (Heb 9:27) and yours (1 Thess 4:15-17) are both in the Bible so how are these reconciled? All must die, including christians, but all the Christians at the very end of time will receive their glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:53 - this verse is not the rapture, Apoc 21:4).

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said:
Also, to receive the Beatific Vision (1 Cor 13:12), that is, see the Essence of God, you must die (Ex 33:20), according to Aquinas (STh., I q.12 a.11).

Have to disagree with that. Nowhere does Paul say he has to die that he doesn't see through a glass darkly. Seeing that it is to his teaching the Doctrine of the Rapture is ascribed, I think we should heed what he has to say on the subject.
He groaned for the redeemed body:

My Comment: 1 Cor 13:12 and 1 Cor 13:9 are both referring to an incomplete knowledge of God we have that we receive when we enter heaven. 1 John 3:2 says the same thing. This is heaven and not the rapture. If this was the Rapture then “seeing in a dark glass then face to face” would be the process of the Rapture rather than the result of a change which is heaven. 1 Cor 13:10 speaks of “when that which is perfect is come”, which is referring to heaven, and that Charity remains (1 Cor 13:8). This shows that this is speaking of the beatific vision in heaven and not the Rapture.

quotes Rom 8:23

And he did not make death a requirement:

Quotes 2 Cor 5:1-4
V3 Yet so that we be found clothed, not naked.
V4 For we also, who are in this tabernacle, do groan, being burthened; because we would not be unclothed, but clothed upon, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

It's right there: we groan to be clothed upon with that building of God, the glorified body. That is our eternal tabernacle.
Being "found naked" is a reference to our spirits not having a body, which is the state we will be in if we do die before the Rapture (v.3).
In v.4 he says we that are in this tabernacle (the earthly body) do groan because we suffer in it. But, he says we do not groan to be unclothed, that is, we do not groan to die because this tabernacle is burdensome, but that we would be clothed upon with that heavenly body.
Mortality being swallowed up by life, and is the corruptible body being replaced with the incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). That cannot happen if we die.

My Comment: This replacement of a corruptible body with an incorruptle one means dying. The last part of 1 Cor 15:54 says “Death is swallowed up in victory”.

So the reason one can go to Heaven without dying is due to the fact that we serve the Almighty, and He makes it possible that men will not perish. This is particularly true in the Rapture because we see that every single member of the Body that is still alive when the Church is caught up will not die physically.
God bless

My Comment: You quoted 2 Cor 5:1-4 but, in context, reading a little further, 2 Cor 5:8 says “We are confident, I say, and o”willing” rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (KJV). Paul desires to be present with the Lord but that doesn’t me he will. He says he has “confidence” but not absolute assurance, but notice: This says nothing about you not having to physically die before going to heaven. Matter of fact it says “absent from the body” which seems to go against the Rapture which includes the body.

Darrell, thanks for your input. I would be interested in your comments on posts
# 15 and 19. Thanks again!

 

[37818]

Just because it was before the fall you think it means there was death? Break that down for me.

Plant life was according to Genesis 1:11-13 made on the third day. Animals which were made would eat plant life. Plants die. Death existed before there were animals.

 

[Revmitchell]

Plant life was according to Genesis 1:11-13 made on the third day. Animals which were made would eat plant life. Plants die. Death existed before there were animals.

And you think that the food God gave us is an equivalent example?

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Either god is a liar, the Bible we have is inaccurate, or your version of events is skewed. I suggest you actually read scripture.

 

[37818]

And you think that the food God gave us is an equivalent example?

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Either god is a liar, the Bible we have is inaccurate, or your version of events is skewed. I suggest you actually read scripture.

You interpert it differently than I do. And for now, simply leave this at that. We both believe Romans 5:12. Genesis 2:17 is a proof that death already existed.

 

[Revmitchell]

You interpert it differently than I do. And for now, simply leave this at that. We both believe Romans 5:12. Genesis 2:17 is a proof that death already existed.

Uh no we dont agree since you cannot deal with scripture and what God actually said about death you move on.

 

[37818]

Uh no we dont agree since you cannot deal with scripture and what God actually said about death . . . .

According to God death existed before the sin of Adam.