Rapture Question

[Darrell C]

It was the “crucified Christ” that appeared in the “Upper Room” to Thomas. This shows that the Crucifixion and the Marriage Supper (Lord’s Supper) are United and the same.

Kind of hard to find an unbeliever like Thomas, an unregenerate man, as part of the Bride of Christ:


John 20:24-28 King James Version

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


Some confuse this...


John 20:21-23 King James Version

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


With the Coming of the Comforter on Pentecost, but forget that the Spirit could not come if Christ did not return to Heaven:


John 16:7 King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


So we know Thomas is unregenerate because he has not received the Spirit, as well as the fact that he is denying Christ's Resurrection here. Christ proves it to Thomas by showing him that His body is literal, and can be touched and felt.

Christ breathing upon them does not nullify His Own teaching, and we can see that He tells them later that they will be "not many days" in Jerusalem before they receive the Spirit:


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


For those that think the Baptism is an empowerment, or the filling of the Holy Ghost, Peter makes it clear it is not:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Peter makes it clear the Baptism with the Holy Ghost takes place at salvation, and in fact, is salvation.

Cornelius was saved at that time, received the Gift, and was granted repentance unto life when he was baptized with the holy Ghost.


So while I understand the correlation you are trying to make, it simply doesn't agree with Scripture. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place at a specific point in time, and that we see Sunday as a special day, and "bread broken" in one of the events, that doesn't, in my view, justify a correlation to the Marriage Supper.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

This is why we call it the Holy “Sacrifice” of the Mass (John 20:27).

But you don't examine Christ's literal glorified body at Mass to disprove unbelief, right?

You already believe He has been raised from the dead, right?

You aren't examining His hands and side, Right? You are memorializing His death. The Blood represents His life, the bread represents His body, and twain represent one thing: His death. That is what we remember when we partake of Communion.

Thomas was an unbeliever and demanded proof. No one legitimately observing Communion is an unregenerate unbeliever like Thomas was.

Christ is the Lamb of God (John 1:29) and the “Lamb” signifies “Sacrifice” ( Apoc 5:6).

Agreed.

As I’ve said before, there is a unity of the body of Christ of those on earth and in heaven (and Purgatory).

But you haven't presented what I would call a proper Biblical Presentation that supports the view, or addresses the objections raised.

Of course, that is just my opinion, and I admit I am biased,

The “Marriage” in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is speaking of the marriage of the bride (Church - Eph 5:29) and bridegroom (Christ - Mark 2:19).

And occurs at a specific time.

And since Christ’s bride is not just in heaven but here on earth, He unites Himself to her in the Marriage Supper which is the Eucharistic Sacrifice present on earth (Luke 22:19) and in heaven (Apoc 19:9, Apoc 5:6).

We are identified with Christ (not each other) in Communion, just as we are in water baptism.

We are united to Christ by being placed in Him (The Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which takes place at salvation (Acts 11:13-18)), and God (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) coming to dwell in us, making His abode in us.

Just as the Eternal Indwelling and Eternal Union have a point in time when that began, even so the Marriage Supper has a specific point in time when that commences, at Christ's return at the end of the Tribulation.

Okay, as I said, you asked for it, lol, so there it is.

I did want to work one last point about not having to die in order to go to Heaven: Paul knew, because it was just as true back then as it is now, that "...every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man." That is why he did not want to be unclothed.



And for those that aren't aware, this is a little humor based on ZZ Top (get it? Lagrange? ZZ Top ...).


God bless.

 

[LaGrange]

Hello again, LaGrange, and thanks for the response. I am taking my leave of the forum for a while (I only do short periods at a time because I love discussion so much that is probably all I would do if I don't discipline myself, lol) but I try to monitor the forum to follow up on issues that are left hanging.

Hi DarrellC,
This might take a little bit of time to answer but I will answer. I understand you taking time away. I will do the exact same thing. It’s fun to me to have discussions but it’s also fun to just do research. I like the challenges as well. You’re right, this is how you hone your theology and grow in your understanding. Thanks so much Darrell for taking the time to answer. May God bless!

 

[LaGrange]

You could be right, but I see we will be given bodies like unto Christ's body when He arose. Here is a description of that:


1 Corinthians 15:51-55 King James Version

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The first point would be that Paul states specifically "... we shall not all sleep," and "sleep" is a euphemism for death. So He is saying "... we shall not all die." That would tell me we do not have to die in order to be changed.

Secondly, we see the dead are (physically) dead and raised from the dead, but we see how those who are alive are changed. We see that which is corruptible putting on incorruption, and that which is mortal putting on immortality. So the point I would make here is that we must be mortal in order to put on immortality, meaning, we must still be alive for that particular truth to match the description. The dead are not "mortal" any longer, they are dead. Only the living are mortal, and lie in death's view.

Third, Paul strips death of victory. "Death, where thy sting. Grave, where is your victory." Those that died felt the sting of death, and were "defeated" by death in the temporal context.

 

[LaGrange]

don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste!

 

[Darrell C]

don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste!

Just scroll over what you want to respond to (highlighting it), and hit "+ QUOTE" when it shows up underneath the highlighting (you will see + QUOTE/REPLY pop up). Then go to the bottom of the page and hit INSERT QUOTES. Another box with the quotes in it will pop up and you hit INSERT QUOTES (I think that's how it's phrased).

If you hit REPLY what you highlighted will immediately go into the Response Box.

It

is the BB Code that makes the changes, so you have to be outside of that so that what you quoted and what you are saying remains separated. I will give an example and change the code so it becomes inactive:

(QUOTE="LaGrange, post: 2796540, member: 17752"]don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste![/QUOTE)

How I inserted this into my post was by going up and highlighting the text itself. The highlighting will be dark and you can only highlight what isn't already being quoted, so if I highlight underneath what my antagonist says but get the highlighting in the quote of my antagonist + QUOTE/REPLY won't show up.

Note the BB Code surrounding the quote above, and I will change the color to highlight what I am talking about:


(QUOTE="LaGrange, post: 2796540, member: 17752"]don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste![/QUOTE)


I have changed the code to make it inactive by replacing the bracket ( [ ) at the beginning of the code with a parenthesis { ( }, and like wise at the very end from ] to ).

So after highlighting something in the post if you hit + QUOTE it saves it for you, and you can INSERT at the bottom of the page or while you are in the midst of posting. If you don't have anything saved INSERT QOTES won't be in the box. So while I am responding I can see the BB Code, and this is what I want my response to outside of. Everything in the BB Code will perform whatever function the code is meant to do. In this example the code is a quote function, and will give the timestamp and quote location. The arrow pointing up beside a poster's name will take you to where that quote was taken from.

So when I reply to the quote, you want it to be separate from what's in the BB Code, something like this:



(QUOTE="LaGrange, post: 2796540, member: 17752"]don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste![/QUOTE)

I can help with that.

don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste!

Okay, to recap, I first hit REPLY at the bottom of the post because it was just one sentence. WHat I have done here is to go back, and this time I highlighted the sentence, hit + QUOTE, and then went back to my response. INSERT QUOTES was there because I had saved the sentence again, and when I hit that, and box came up that gave me the option to insert the quote I saved.

Before you do that, make sure your cursor is where you want the quote placed in your response. Wherever your cursor is, that's where the quote will be inserted.

If it shows up in the wrong place, hit your control button and the letter Z at the same time and this will UNDO the last thing you did. That will remove the quote from where it was and you can move your cursor to where you want it and do it again, or just copy and paste the quote directly to where you want it.

As long as you are outside of it you'll be fine.

If the post is short you can just hit REPLY at the bottom of the post you want to respond to, but if you want to address statements in the post individually, you'll want to highlight, hit + QUOTE, and then go to the bottom of the page and you'll see the response box with INSERT QUOTES. Hit that, then hit INSERT QUOTES again. I'll do it not with the same statement to make sure I am not forgetting something:


Understanding these functions isn't as hard as it might seem, and once you get used to it you will be able to present your posts in a more detailed way. This drives some people crazy, lol, because they prefer taking potshots rather than getting into a detailed discussion. But this is just a great way for us to discuss what we believe and what we base those beliefs on. Long discussions that get in-depth take some time, and not all really want to do that. But most of what we will deal with is not going to be resolved with a verse or two, or even a topic or two. Our Soteriology is dependent on our Eschatology, for example, and our Eschatology on our Soteriology. If we can reconcile the parts off our Theology we will only strengthen it. So a discussion about the Rapture, for example, will inevitably call for soteriological and eschatological discussion. A discussion about Justification will demand discussion about Christology (and other issues).

It is my belief that Pure and Sound Doctrine is the only avenue for the fractured Body to be mended.


Hope that helps. Let me know if I can help with anything.


God bless.

 

[LaGrange]

Just scroll over what you want to respond to (highlighting it), and hit "+ QUOTE" when it shows up underneath the highlighting (you will see + QUOTE/REPLY pop up). Then go to the bottom of the page and hit INSERT QUOTES. Another box with the quotes in it will pop up and you hit INSERT QUOTES (I think that's how it's phrased).

If you hit REPLY what you highlighted will immediately go into the Response Box.

It

is the BB Code that makes the changes, so you have to be outside of that so that what you quoted and what you are saying remains separated. I will give an example and change the code so it becomes inactive:

(QUOTE="LaGrange, post: 2796540, member: 17752"]don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste![/QUOTE)

How I inserted this into my post was by going up and highlighting the text itself. The highlighting will be dark and you can only highlight what isn't already being quoted, so if I highlight underneath what my antagonist says but get the highlighting in the quote of my antagonist + QUOTE/REPLY won't show up.

Note the BB Code surrounding the quote above, and I will change the color to highlight what I am talking about:


(QUOTE="LaGrange, post: 2796540, member: 17752"]don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste![/QUOTE)


I have changed the code to make it inactive by replacing the bracket ( [ ) at the beginning of the code with a parenthesis { ( }, and like wise at the very end from ] to ).

So after highlighting something in the post if you hit + QUOTE it saves it for you, and you can INSERT at the bottom of the page or while you are in the midst of posting. If you don't have anything saved INSERT QOTES won't be in the box. So while I am responding I can see the BB Code, and this is what I want my response to outside of. Everything in the BB Code will perform whatever function the code is meant to do. In this example the code is a quote function, and will give the timestamp and quote location. The arrow pointing up beside a poster's name will take you to where that quote was taken from.

So when I reply to the quote, you want it to be separate from what's in the BB Code, something like this:



(QUOTE="LaGrange, post: 2796540, member: 17752"]don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste![/QUOTE)

I can help with that.



Okay, to recap, I first hit REPLY at the bottom of the post because it was just one sentence. WHat I have done here is to go back, and this time I highlighted the sentence, hit + QUOTE, and then went back to my response. INSERT QUOTES was there because I had saved the sentence again, and when I hit that, and box came up that gave me the option to insert the quote I saved.

Before you do that, make sure your cursor is where you want the quote placed in your response. Wherever your cursor is, that's where the quote will be inserted.

If it shows up in the wrong place, hit your control button and the letter Z at the same time and this will UNDO the last thing you did. That will remove the quote from where it was and you can move your cursor to where you want it and do it again, or just copy and paste the quote directly to where you want it.

As long as you are outside of it you'll be fine.

If the post is short you can just hit REPLY at the bottom of the post you want to respond to, but if you want to address statements in the post individually, you'll want to highlight, hit + QUOTE, and then go to the bottom of the page and you'll see the response box with INSERT QUOTES. Hit that, then hit INSERT QUOTES again. I'll do it not with the same statement to make sure I am not forgetting something:


Understanding these functions isn't as hard as it might seem, and once you get used to it you will be able to present your posts in a more detailed way. This drives some people crazy, lol, because they prefer taking potshots rather than getting into a detailed discussion. But this is just a great way for us to discuss what we believe and what we base those beliefs on. Long discussions that get in-depth take some time, and not all really want to do that. But most of what we will deal with is not going to be resolved with a verse or two, or even a topic or two. Our Soteriology is dependent on our Eschatology, for example, and our Eschatology on our Soteriology. If we can reconcile the parts off our Theology we will only strengthen it. So a discussion about the Rapture, for example, will inevitably call for soteriological and eschatological discussion. A discussion about Justification will demand discussion about Christology (and other issues).

It is my belief that Pure and Sound Doctrine is the only avenue for the fractured Body to be mended.


Hope that helps. Let me know if I can help with anything.


God bless.

Thanks Darrell. I am struggling with this. I did what you said and it posting the quotes worked but then realized I made a couple of breaks that I didn’t want in there but I had already posted the quotes. I’ll start over. Man, I am so bad at electronics! Lol

 

[LaGrange]

Hello again, LaGrange, and thanks for the response. I am taking my leave of the forum for a while (I only do short periods at a time because I love discussion so much that is probably all I would do if I don't discipline myself, lol) but I try to monitor the forum to follow up on issues that are left hanging.

Answering post #42

Hi All,

I hope all of you will read these posts. This might take a little bit of time to answer but I will answer. I’m going to answer all of them probably at a rate of one or two posts a day. I won’t answer any responses to these responses until I’m finished and only if I think it is needed. I think it’s important to answer these with decent answers so I’m taking my time. I enjoy it so much anyway. If the thread ends before I finish, I will start a new thread to continue posting my responses to Darrell.

Darrell,
I understand you taking time away. I will do the exact same thing. It’s fun to me to have discussions but it’s also fun to just do research. I like the challenges as well. You’re right, this is how you hone your theology and grow in your understanding. Thanks so much Darrell for taking the time to answer. I think this is what discussions are all about. May God bless!

You could be right, but I see we will be given bodies like unto Christ's body when He arose. Here is a description of that:


1 Corinthians 15:51-55 King James Version

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The first point would be that Paul states specifically "... we shall not all sleep," and "sleep" is a euphemism for death. So He is saying "... we shall not all die." That would tell me we do not have to die in order to be changed.

Secondly, we see the dead are (physically) dead and raised from the dead, but we see how those who are alive are changed. We see that which is corruptible putting on incorruption, and that which is mortal putting on immortality. So the point I would make here is that we must be mortal in order to put on immortality, meaning, we must still be alive for that particular truth to match the description. The dead are not "mortal" any longer, they are dead. Only the living are mortal, and lie in death's view.

Third, Paul strips death of victory. "Death, where thy sting. Grave, where is your victory." Those that died felt the sting of death, and were "defeated" by death in the temporal context

My Comment: Part of the problem with this verse is the translation. My translation says:
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. (DRV)
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; kWe shall not all lsleep, but mwe shall all be changed, (KJV)

All the commentaries say the best translation is the KJV on this one. Some of the early church fathers and commentators take this to mean, like you say, that some won’t die and others say all will die but the just, somehow, in the process of the resurrection of the dead, will change into their glorified bodies. I’m not sure about the timing of the Just (that are alive on the last day) getting their glorified bodies because the Judgement has to come first (do you get your glorified body as your going up or maybe after you come to the Great White Throne?) I believe God judges all of us at the end of our lives and not before you are born (Reformed) or during your life (OSAS).

The DRV I would interpret something like this: “…all will rise but not all will go to heaven and receive their glorified bodies”.
The KJV I would interpret something like this: “all will not be dead on the last day but the just (we) will go to heaven and receive their glorified bodies”.

1 Cor 15:54 …Death is swallowed up in victory.

Darrell, you could take “Death” here to mean death actually occurred. What “victory” would it be unless you actually died? It seems that you see this word “Death” here as more symbolic and that the people didn’t actually die. Nothing wrong with that I guess. You can easily see “Death” here as literal if you use the DRV translation. The DRV says “we shall all… rise”. “All rise” can be interpreted as “All were dead”. “Rising” implies you “died”. The DRV is a legitimate translation. Jerome interpreted it that way.

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

I used the KJV here because it uses the word “grave”. “Grave” sounds more like a literal and physical death rather than symbolic. Darrell, I’m not saying absolutely that you look at the word “death” in v54 symbolically but it does seem like you’re leaning that way.

The bottom line: 1 Cor 15:51-54 is clearly about the the resurrection of the body on the last day. Yes, as I’ve said, you can say that those alive on the last day didn’t die but what you cannot say is that this exception happened 1,007 years before the last day. This exception, therefore, cannot be applied to the rapture.

Again, I see a distinction drawn between those that have died when the Rapture takes place, and those that are still alive:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 King James Version

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


There is nothing said about our having to die in order to be caught up together with them that are already dead and have been raised from the dead. We are just told that we will be changed.

Now here is what I mean when I said you might be right (in regards to "a mysterious death"): we are going to be "resurrected" in the sense of the flesh being glorified.

My Comment: I believe this is a literal and physical death even though it is mysterious. Mysterious doesn’t necessarily have to mean symbolic or spiritual.

It will still be a flesh-and-bone body (Luke 24:39), but it will be significantly different than what we have now in the sense of it being an everlasting body impervious to death. So I would not dogmatically deny that as a form of "death" in a context like that.
I do still hold to the position that we do not die physically, but that this mortal frame takes on immortality

My Comment: Luke 24:39 is proof that we will receive a glorified body. The parallel verse is John 20:19-28.

Something else to throw in for consideration on this issue: I take the position that Enoch did not "see" death as we do when we die, meaning, he was translated from the body and taken to sheol/hades. So too, when we are changed, that change will be similar to Enoch's translation

My Comment: The problem I see with Enoch is that he didn’t die. Notice: This was way before the Last Day and before Christ’s resurrection. This causes a big problem: If Enoch went to Sheol (hell), as you say, and he was a just man, when Christ opened the gates of heaven, why didn’t he leave the bosom of Abraham (Sheol) and go to heaven? At that point there was no more Bosom of Abraham. Enoch didn’t go to the Third Heaven like everyone else in the Bosom of Abraham after Christ’s Ascension. Another question: If Enoch went to Sheol why does it say he went to heaven? (Heb 11:5). In the Septuigant, It says he went to “Paradise”(Sirach 44:16). Aquinas interprets “Paradise” as not exactly the same place as heaven as we think of heaven.

 

[LaGrange]

Hi All,

I want to correct one thing and add to one thing in post #68:

1. 1 Cor 15:51

When talking about 1 Cor 15:51 I had said:

“I’m not sure about the timing of the Just (that are alive on the last day) getting their glorified bodies because the Judgement has to come first (do you get your glorified body as your going up or maybe after you come to the Great White Throne?) I believe God judges all of us at the end of our lives and not before you are born (Reformed) or during your life (OSAS).”

Correction: At the resurrection of the dead, on the last day, everything happens at once but if you looked at the resurrection event in order, it would probably look something like this:
1. You die first (particular judgement)
2. Receive your glorified body (as you are going up)
3. Come to the Great White Throne Judgement (we call the General Judgement)

I’ll have to explain maybe later the purpose of the General Judgement. It would take too many words to explain it right. Mainly it’s to show the Glory of God.

2. John 5:29

I want to add this information:

John 5:29 looks like two resurrections.

A parallel verse to this verse is Acts 24:15:

Acts 24:15 (D-R): Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a “resurrection of the just and unjust”.

Here you see that ONE resurrection is mentioned but both groups are included.

Other parallel verses are Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46

 

[LaGrange]

Hi All,

One more correction. I promise! Lol

I list the three steps:

1. You die first (particular judgement)
2. Receive your glorified body (as you are going up)
3. Come to the Great White Throne Judgement (we call the General Judgement)

Correction: Number 2 should also include the resurrection of the wicked in their natural bodies.

 

[canadyjd]

Hi All,

One more correction. I promise! Lol

I list the three steps:

1. You die first (particular judgement)
2. Receive your glorified body (as you are going up)
3. Come to the Great White Throne Judgement (we call the General Judgement)

Correction: Number 2 should also include the resurrection of the wicked in their natural bodies.

Do you have any verses that distinguish between a “glorified body” for the saved and a “natural body” for the lost in the resurrection?

peace to you

 

[LaGrange]

At the Great White Throne (which is followed by the creation of the new heavens/universe and earth) all that are dead are raised:


Revelation 20 King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


The existing heavens and earth are already gone at this time. We are only told that the dead stand before the Great White Throne. These who are dead are raised up (v.6), resurrected into bodies also suitable to an everlasting existence. The reference to the sea giving up the dead speaks of the natural body being raised. The reference to death and hades giving up the dead is a reference to the spirit being raised.

They "live again" but this is not the Life of Christ they have, it is a resurrection of the dead similar to Lazarus, who was also raised but did not receive the Resurrection unto Life. Where I might differ from others on this is that I see a distinct possibility in Scripture that there may just be those who receive the resurrection of life at the Great White Throne

My Comment: It’s good you think that. I don’t think it says anywhere in scripture that the resurrection (John 5:29) happens in two different places, one being the rapture. We call it the “resurrection of the body” (Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:52) because ALL receive their bodies but not all receive glorified bodies (sounds like 1 Cor 15:51 which happens to be the previous verse - Aquinas quotes Job 14:12 and other verses). Scofield interpreted John 5:29 as two distinct resurrections in error. If you look at John 5:29 as the same resurrection, it has to come at the end of time after the Great White Throne Judgement (Apoc 20:11-12) or you wouldn’t have ALL the elect (the just) but only part. John 5:29, referring to one resurrection, is how the early church fathers saw it used in the Apostle’s Creed and the Nicene Creed: “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead” (1 Pet 4:5 - Great White Throne Judgement) and “the resurrection of the body” (1 Cor 15:52 - ALL men). This captures ALL the just before and after the Tribulation and anyone saved during the thousand year reign. This means no Rapture. There is no logical reason to raise some bodily into a glorified body before the end of the world. The “First Resurrection” (Apoc 20:5) refers to the resurrection of the soul and not the body. We call this the “Particular Judgement” (Heb 9:27). All those who have died have already been judged(ParticularmJudgement) but not those alive on the last day. The Particular Judgement and Great White Throne Judgement will take care of that. There are the Two Books of Life used at this Great White Throne Judgement.

"Death" is separation, and I view Enoch and Elijah to have been separated from their physical bodies before they entered into sheol.

In regards to the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, I think it very likely they will be contemporary men called of God in that day, rather than Enoch and Elijah because "they never died."

I will say George Antonios makes some pretty good points as to why they might be Moses and Elijah. I have no problem thinking God will resurrect Moses and Elijah in that day

My Comment: Moses has already been resurrected. Since he died (Deut 34:5), he was resurrected at Christ’s Ascension when He opened the gates of heaven (Heb 9:11-12).

and a point George makes is that they are both mentioned in the last Prophecy of the Hebrew Scriptures:


Malachi 4:4-6 King James Version

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


This is literally God's last word of Prophecy prior to the Intertestamental Period and both men are mentioned.

My Comment: The problem with George’s interpretation here is that verse 4 says the “Law of Moses” and not Moses himself. I think you can interpret these verses in a preterist way (I know, I don’t like the preterist way most of the time either) or in the futurist way. They can be interpreted in a preterist way because they point to Luke 17:10-13. If you do, then John the Baptist is the Elijah they are referring to and this means the interpretation of these verses is that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) and that He gave us a New Covenant when He came at His “First Coming”. If you apply this to the Second Coming then Mal 4:4 would mean Malachi is saying that Moses was the first mediator of the law (v4) and Elijah, representing the prophets, is the last mediator of the law (v5-6). Elijah is the “last mediator” because he brings the gospel to Jews (Apoc 11:3 - Navarre Commentary).

While I would not be dogmatic either way, I think God might raise them as He raised Lazarus, and that they would have to be mortal because they die, lie in the street 3 1/2 days, are resurrected unto life, and raptured:


Revelation 11:11-12 King James Version

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

My Comment: I think you are saying that you think God could raise Moses like He did Lazarus to be one of the two witnesses. I’m assuming you mean the beggar Lazarus (Luke 16:20-31) because there are two Lazarus’, the other being the brother of Martha and Mary (John 11). In my OP my argument was that ALL must die, therefore, ALL cannot be raptured without dying. The problem is that the beggar, Lazarus, died (Luke 16:22) and Moses died and would die again because the two witnesses die. This means there is NO Bodily Rapture that avoids death and especially not 1,007 years before the end of time.

Moses and Elijah do appear at the Mount of Transfiguration, and this could be telling. Meaning a preview of their resurrection in the end time.

But another possibility is that they are not Moses and Elijah, but contemporary. Christ states the prophecy above was fulfilled in john the Baptist:


Matthew 17:11-13 King James Version

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


I still think the prophecy of Malachi 4 is yet unfulfilled in its final fulfillment, but just as John the Baptist fulfilled it and wasn't Elijah, even so I think it possible other men could fulfill this.

If you get the time, watch the video George Antonios posted in the thread about Ezekiel. It's very interesting and has me thinking about the Two Witnesses hard, lol.

My Comment: I will watch the video. Sounds interesting! I agree that God can do whatever He wants regarding the Two Witnesses but the problem remains regarding a bodily Rapture. ALL must die (1 Cor 15:20-22 - which would include those before, during and after the theoretical Rapture) which is in the same chapter as the resurrection of the body (1 Cor 15:50-55) at the end of time and not the Rapture.

 

[LaGrange]

Hi DarrellC,

I couldn’t get this part to quote for some reason. This is also in your post#43:


Darrell: There are those who never received the Gospel thus were not able to receive the Resurrection unto life during their lifetimes as we have, but were obedient to the revelation they received during their lifetimes, thus were justified like as many of the Old Testament Saints were. Like the Old Testament Saints, I see a possibility that there is still a Just Side of Hades for people like that. The Gospel was not revealed to any man or woman in the Old Testament. Yes, the Gospel was given to them (i.e., Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 53), but understanding was withheld. They died awaiting Eternal Redemption through the Cross and the Resurrection. So too, it may be that even today God remains constant in grace and mercy, and that as He has always done, He will judge men according to their response to the revelation they did receive (the testimony of Creation, the internal witness (Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:13-16). The same would be true, I believe, for those who die today who do not get the opportunity to grow up and receive the revelation of the Comforter. Babies that die and/or murdered in the womb; very young children; those mentally incapacitated.
I am not dogmatic on that, but I see a consistency throughout Scripture that God has always judged men according to the response to the revelation He gives them in their day. That begins with Adam, who was disobedient to the revealed will of God in regards to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

My Comment: This is charitable. This is what we would call the Baptism of Desire. It can be applied to the proverbial native in the woods, a Muslim (not because he’s Muslim), or anyone who has not had the gospel preached to them. We believe God, through mysterious ways, can reach and does reach all souls. We believe God makes it “possible” for all men to go to heaven (Acts 17:26-27, 1 Tim 2:4) but, of course, not everyone does go to heaven.

 

[canadyjd]

….

….There are those who never received the Gospel thus were not able to receive the Resurrection unto life during their lifetimes as we have, but were obedient to the revelation they received during their lifetimes, thus were justified like as many of the Old Testament Saints were….

He will judge men according to their response to the revelation they did receive (the testimony of Creation, the internal witness (Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:13-16). …

My Comment: This is charitable. This is what we would call the Baptism of Desire. It can be applied to the proverbial native in the woods, a Muslim (not because he’s Muslim), or anyone who has not had the gospel preached to them….

The passage from Romans 1 makes it very clear all rejected the revelation found in creation. No one in OT times were saved by revelation found in creation. They believed God’s promises concerning the coming Messiah.

No one today is saved by responding to revelation found in creation. 1 Corinthians 1 is very clear that men could not come to know God by their own wisdom, but God was well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached (Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

What you are claiming is that the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is not necessary for salvation.

That is grievous error and leads directly to heresy.

peace to you

 

[LaGrange]

The passage from Romans 1 makes it very clear all rejected the revelation found in creation. No one in OT times were saved by revelation found in creation. They believed God’s promises concerning the coming Messiah.

No one today is saved by responding to revelation found in creation. 1 Corinthians 1 is very clear that men could not come to know God by their own wisdom, but God was well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached (Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

What you are claiming is that the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is not necessary for salvation.

That is grievous error and leads directly to heresy.

peace to you

No. I’m not saying that at all. Maybe I misunderstood what Darrell was saying. All men must respond to the gospel but that is not always possible by the normal means. If men cannot be reached with the gospel (Ex: the native in the woods), I believe God makes it possible by extraordinary means. God may actually appear to them or use some other extraordinary way to reach them. That’s all I’m saying. If they make it to heaven it is ONLY through Jesus Christ. Taking a second look, I think Darrell’s explanation may be a dispensationalist view which I don’t agree with. Maybe Darrell can say a little more about this later. Hope that helps.

 

[canadyjd]

No. I’m not saying that at all. Maybe I misunderstood what Darrell was saying. All men must respond to the gospel but that is not always possible by the normal means. If men cannot be reached with the gospel (Ex: the native in the woods), I believe God makes it possible by extraordinary means. God may actually appear to them or use some other extraordinary way to reach them. That’s all I’m saying. If they make it to heaven it is ONLY through Jesus Christ. Taking a second look, I think Darrell’s explanation may be a dispensationalist view which I don’t agree with. Maybe Darrell can say a little more about this later. Hope that helps.

I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying it is the gospel, not responding to creation, that brings salvation.

peace to you

 

[LaGrange]

I think he could be, but I think that is something we cannot be dogmatic about. It's just as likely it will be a man contemporary to the times.

My Comment: I disagree. Apoc 11:10 says, “because these ‘two prophets’…” Mal 4:5 says Elijah is one that will be sent at this time and Enoch the other (Jude 14-15). It has to be two of the Old Testament prophets. I personally take a hard line that the two witnesses didn’t die like Aquinas said because it maintains the integrity of the Doctrine of Original Sin (STh., II-II q.164 a.1)

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 King James Version

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The "we" in v.52 refers to those he is writing to. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. Both the dead and the living are "changed."

So I am not sure how we can look at Paul's statement, "... we shall not all die," and not take it to mean we won't die in order to be changed.

My Comment: I think I answered this in my last post

 

[LaGrange]

I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying it is the gospel, not responding to creation, that brings salvation.

peace to you

No problem. Thanks Canadyjd!

 

[LaGrange]

Again, I would answer that as because Paul makes the statement "... we shall not all die."

Sleep is a euphemism for death. When Lazarus died, he was said to be sleeping. When the Old Testament Saints died, they "slept with their fathers."

My Comment: I agree that sleeping equals death.
As I said before, 1 Cor 15:51 means, [when it says “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (KJV)], that “all will not be dead on the last day but the just (we) will go to heaven and receive their glorified bodies”. Something like that. This is at the end of time. If you take it as at the end of time you can see it. This is a difficult verse but if you look at the DRV I think it helps. The DRV translation of this verse comes from a Greek variant used by St. Jerome.

I have to give the same answer: "... we shall not all sleep."

My Comment: I already answered this.

I don't think we can conclude this won't happen to other Christians. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom there will be living believers at that time also. They will not need to die either. I think they will be changed without dying as well.

To take that point a little further, at the end of the Tribulation, believers live physically and enter the Kingdom physically. This is where the multitude that joins ranks with Satan come from:


Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

My Comment: I’ve already answered this. You could interpret these verses as some were taken up alive and make an exception if you interpret them coming at the end of time. Why? Because the world is coming to an end and those living have to go somewhere. I take a hard line against an exception because, like Aquinas, it’s to protect the integrity of the Doctrine of Original Sin that says, as a punishment, all must die. There could always be exceptions but I don’t think a large number of people being raptured could be one of them. There is one exception but that exception would have to include avoiding original sin. That’s a hint and I definitely don’t want to get into that. Lol

My reference was to what I view an out-of-body experience Paul had:


2 Corinthians 12:1-3 King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)


This happened during Paul's lifetime, and is a separate issue from Paul's death. I believe he went into the Thrid Heaven (God's Realm, Heaven) in the spirit, just as John does

2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ: above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:4 That he was caught up into paradise and heard secret words which it is not granted to man to utter.

My Comment: I agree with you that Paul, in 2 Cor 12:2, went to heaven “in the spirit”. Regarding 2 Cor 12:1-4, you were saying originally that Paul “might” have been taken bodily into heaven and you used that as kind of a proof that Christians who have been saved could be raptured based on Paul’s experience. I thought this was a good verse to look at. 2 Cor 12:4 says, “How that he was caught up into “paradise”, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” (KJV) Notice the word “Paradise”. The KJV references Luke 23:43 which says “And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: “This day” thou shalt be with me in “paradise.” Jesus said this to the good thief while on the cross. Notice: It says “This day” you shall be with me in “Paradise”. Paradise could not be heaven because Christ, after His death on the cross, had to descend into hell for three days and THEN rise again and appear to 500 souls on earth for forty days before ascending and opening the gates of heaven. This totals 43 days. Paradise was NOT heaven as we think of it. Paradise for the good thief was the bosom of Abraham or what we sometimes call the Limbo of the Fathers. Paradise for Enoch and Elijah was the lowest level of heaven because they had not died. “Paradise” apparently is a large abode taking in a lot of places including the Bosom of Abraham and other areas. It basically is a “happy place”. Aquinas said Paul, in these verses, did go to the Third Heaven (2 Cor 12:2) which is heaven as we think of it but, even then, he did not “see” the beatific vision but only “heard unspeakable words”. 1 Tim 6:14-16 says, “…Christ…whom no man hath seen, nor can see:…”. In the body you cannot see God until the end when we receive our glorified bodies. If he had died he would have stayed there.

To answer your original argument, Paul thought it was a possibility that he could have gone bodily into heaven as we know it and he may have been in the realm of heaven as we think of it. Aquinas thinks that when Paul said he may have gone bodily to the third heaven, that he didn’t actually or physically go to heaven (Aquinas, Commentary on 2 Corinthians, #457). Paul went to heaven in what he would call an intellectual rapture (STh., II-II q.175 a.3 ad 4). It’s like an intellectual vision. He goes on to explain why he thought he may have been in his body. It gets complicated. Lol

Revelation 4 King James Version

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


I do not view unredeemed flesh as capable of coming into God's presence in His realm, which is why I dogmatically reject the notion of Enoch and Elijah "not dying." They died, went to sheol (the Just side), and were redeemed by Christ when Christ died for them.

My Comment: Enoch and Elijah did not go into God’s Presence (beatific vision). There are three heavens: air, stars and heaven of heavens (empyrean). Enoch didn’t die (Heb 11:5) and he went to “paradise” (Sirach 44:16). No one knows for sure where paradise is but it clearly says he didn’t die. Enoch will die later and then go into God’s Presence. Elijah the same.

One interesting discussion is whether the Old Testament Saints will be resurrected in the Rapture. I tend to lean to them not being glorified, but do think it likely they be resurrected bodily as Lazarus was:


Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul did die physically, though he wanted to be raptured (2 Corinthians 5:1-8).

My Comment: Matt 8:11 is referring to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. From the moment you die, if you go to heaven, you will be at that Marriage Supper. Your soul is there but not your body until the general judgement at the end. I talk about that in two of my posts. No delay in this happening until after the rapture. That’s my understanding.


DarrellC: Paul did die physically, though he wanted to be raptured (2 Corinthians 5:1-8).



My Comment: I haven’t studied the rapture enough to separate out all the different kinds of raptures. They all seem to be what you said “an out-of-body experience”. The word comes from the Latin word “raptus”. In the Clementine Latin Vulgate it is used 5 times: Wis 4:11, Hos 13:3, Amos 4:11, 2 Cor 12:4, Apoc 12:5. Other words are used as well. An example is the word “Ecstasy”. Ecstasy is a kind of rapture according to Aquinas. An example is Peter’s vision in Acts 10:10 and Acts 11:5. It also describes this when it says that they were “taken up” (DRV) or “drawn up” (KJV) (Acts 11:10). In Acts 10:10 and Acts 11:5, “Ecstasy”, In Latin, is “excessu” which means departure, death, ecstasy and trance.

 

[LaGrange]

Can anyone tell me how to quote the previous quotes with the vertical line next to them? Mine won’t let me quote that part. It helps with the continuity of the discussion as you know. Thanks!