Rapture Question

[LaGrange]

Can anyone tell me how to quote the previous quotes with the vertical line next to them? Mine won’t let me quote that part. It helps with the continuity of the discussion as you know. Thanks!

Never mind. I think it is doing it! Maybe I’m losing my mind trying to keep up with Darrell!!! Lol

 

[LaGrange]

Correct. An entirely different event from the Rapture.

At the Rapture we go to be with Jesus. At the end of the Tribulation He returns. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom the heavens and the earth pass away and the Great White Throne judgment takes place. As I said, I believe it likely there will be a rapture at the end of the Tribulation, just as there is one in Revelation 11. But another distinctive of the Rapture is that only believers are raised (whereas at the Great White Throne it is the dead being raised). Furthermore, all believers are raised/changed at the Rapture, and there is no mention of unbelievers being raised. It could be that Paul simply doesn't mention this, but usually Scripture gives us enough to come to conclusions that are themselves distinctive.

My Comment: If you move the Second Coming to after the thousand year reign (amillennial), I think we would be in agreement. At least a much better one. My minority view in the Catholic Church does just that! I know you would say “Yea but Christ isn’t reigning in the Thousand year reign!”. My answer is: Yes, Jesus does reign but in a way you haven’t considered. You wouldn’t be able to accept it but I may eventually bring it out and discuss it anyway. The posts on the Communion of the Saints and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb play into it.

Not all men:


1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

My Comment: I already answered this. We are at an impasse on this verse. I realize that. This is a hard verse but I think I covered it well enough. Darrell, I guess this means I didn’t convince ya? Lol

Here’s a little more information on this verse:

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. (DRV)
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (KJV)

Here’s what Aquinas says:

STh I-II q 81 a 3 ad 1:

“Reply to Objection 1. It is held with greater probability and more commonly that all those that are alive at the coming of our Lord, will die, and rise again shortly, as we shall state more fully in the Supplement (Supplement:78:1, Objection 1). If, however, it be true, as others hold, that they will never die, (an opinion which Jerome mentions among others in a letter to Minerius, on the Resurrection of the Body—Ep. cxix), then we must say in reply to the objection, that although they are not to die, the debt of death is none the less in them, and that the punishment of death will be remitted by God, since He can also forgive the punishment due for actual sins.”

Supplementum, q. 78, a. 1:

“On the contrary, It is written (1 Cor. 15:36): That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die first, and he is speaking of the resurrection of the body as compared to the seed.
Further, It is written (1 Cor. 15:22): As in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. Now all shall be made alive in Christ. Therefore all shall die in Adam: and so all shall rise again from death….”

I think it is clear what Aquinas says about 1 Cor 15:51. In the reply to Objection one, he was answering an Objection that used 1 Thess 4:14 to show that not all will die. Notice he quotes 1 Cor 15:36 and 1 Cor 15:22 to prove that all must die. Right in the same chapter. Again, exceptions can be made as he suggests when he says “greater probability”, but also notice: he says these verses are in the context of the Second Coming (when he says “Coming of the Lord”) which he puts at the very end.

 

[LaGrange]

If you do not see 1 Corinthians 15 as a reference to the Rapture I am not sure what more I might be able to say. It is descriptive of the change believers receive. Can I ask how you would view this as not a reference to the Rapture (and this will probably be my last interaction in this thread, as I have to take my leave)? How can instantaneously being changed from mortal to immortal not be the Rapture? How can "... we shall not all die" be anything but a direct statement that "...not all men shall die, but...?"

My Comment: I know some early church fathers believed in chilasm but I know of none who believed in the rapture 1,007 years before the very end. Are there any? I know some say there are. Can you show one example with the source so I can read it? Maybe there was but, if there was, it seems like nobody talked about it until the 1800’s. I say this because we are at an impasse on 1 Cor 15. The timing is the biggest problem. You know, another problem I’ve seen among those who believe in the pre-Trib Rapture is that those who are raptured come back during the thousand year reign in their glorified bodies and walk among those who weren’t raptured, who are in their natural bodies ON EARTH!!! My question is this: Is this “Earth” the same earth as the earth is now or is it the earth of Apoc 21?

Secondly, I view Hebrews 9:27 as the general rule, rather than an absolute. An example of another would be, "There is none righteous, no, not one." But now there are those who are righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ, right?

Hebrews 9:27 is a quote (or probably better to say a reiteration), basically, and refers to the general principle of death:


Ecclesiastes 3:20 King James Version

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 3:2
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;


I would just suggest to you that the Writer of the Book of Hebrews is making the point, "It is appointed to man to die, and after this comes judgment. Christ died that death that man awaits, for all sin, so must all die."

This is the Gospel, it refers to the fact that the death we owe has been accomplished by Christ. That speaks of both physical death as well as the Second death.

So I would view Hebrews 9 to be supportive of the fact the death we owe was accomplished in Christ, rather than viewing it as a concrete rule that hasn't been made obsolete in Christ, just as the (Covenant of) Law was.

Think about it LaGrange: it was a concrete rule then Paul could not say "... we shall not all die."

My Comment: 1 Cor 15:51 I’ve explained. Are you saying that since Christ died for our sins so we don’t have to die physically? God said because of Original Sin ALL must die (Gen 2:17, Gen 3:19). Very few exceptions and these exceptions were individual people and not millions like probably at the theoretical rapture.It looks like you quoted Eccles 3:2 because it uses the words “die” and “pluck up”. If by that you mean raptured I don’t think so. This verse, used this way, makes me think of Rom 8:35-39 because if you die in Christ, you cannot be separated from Him even by death so when it says “and a time to pluck up that which is planted”, means, after death (planted means in the ground), you will go to be with the Lord. If you are in the Body of Christ on earth you will be in the Body of Christ in heaven.

 

[LaGrange]

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 King James Version

I take this as a reference to the Eternal State, rather than simply entering Heaven. We see those in Heaven who do not have full knowledge:


Revelation 6:9-11 King James Version

In the Eternal State, and then only, will we have perfection/completion in

My Comment: I want to say that Apoc 6:9 says these souls were “slain” so they “died”. So even if you consider these verses as an intermediate state, they still died to get there.

Ok. First to clarify:
I think you are saying that you make a distinction between the “Eternal State” and “heaven”. In the Eternal State souls have full knowledge and in heaven souls do not have full knowledge (because they asked the Lord “how long?”). 1 Cor 13:8-12 refers to the Eternal State and Revelation 6:9-11 refers to heaven. Is that what you mean?

Apoc 6:9-11

I remember one time reading in Louis Berkhof’s book, “Systematic Theology”, about the “Intermediate State”. He didn’t think much of it because he was amillennial. I briefly looked at it again and also looked at Wayne Grudem’s book “Systematic Theology”. Grudem seemed to agree with it. If I am understanding this correctly, the Intermediate State begins for most christian people when they die but also includes those who are part of the Rapture. The Intermediate State ends with the ending of the Thousand Year Reign. This would mean the souls raptured do not have full knowledge until the coming of the “new heavens and new earth” (Apoc 21:1) after the Great White Throne Judgement. Is this right? I’m learning. It seems that if the Thousand Year Reign is in this intermediate state then this Thousand Year Reign is not taking place here on earth. Is that right? If that’s true, where is this “earth”? IF it is the earth of Apoc 21 then it has to be in heaven. Darrell, I would like to know how you think about this.

Regarding “Knowledge” in this intermediate state, I couldn’t find anything but it is logical that you wouldn’t have full knowledge of God there based on your understanding. Can you give me other verse that shows this and maybe where I can read about this? This is interesting. I knew about the steps from the Rapture to the very end but I don’t know all the thinking about it. Interesting!

Grudem says these verses point to an intermediate state: Is 65:20, Is 11:6-9, Ps 71:8-14 (Ps 72:8-14 KJV), Apoc 2:26-27, Apoc 12:5-6, 1 Cor 15:23-5.

The Catholic View is that those in Apoc 6:9-11 are in heaven and have the beatific Vision. They are wearing white robes showing that they have been judged (particular judgement) and await their bodies that they will receive at the General Judgement. Haydock’s Commentary says that when the martyrs ask God “how Long?”, They are, out of zeal for God’s honour and the good of the Church, praying that the enemies of Christ, and of the Christian faith, may be humbled, and that all may acknowledge and fear the justice of God, by the punishment of his enemies, and the reward of his faithful servants (Deut 32:43, 2 Kings 9:7, Ps 78:10 (Ps 79:10).

I would agree. We see a pairing in the description: the dead (corrupted) made incorruptible, and the living (mortal) made immortal. Both apply to both as our bodies are corruptible as we speak/type, lol, but there's a "them and us" quality to be seen as well.

It also states ".where is thy sting," which can be viewed as "You didn't get me, old boy!" lol

It's going to be determined by your perspective.

But what isn't open for debate is that Paul states clearly "... we shall not all die."

That means not all men are going to die, but all men (believers) will be changed. We have to stick to what is written.

My Comment: Back to the same verse. 1 Cor 15:52 says “….the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed.” notice it says the “dead” shall rise incorruptible. On a different verse, I was looking at Matt 27:52-53 which says “And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city and appeared to many.” This was after Christ’s death and resurrection but before His Ascension into heaven. These verses show that these saints could be “seen” which means they were in their bodies. Eventually they went to heaven. This looks like a forerunner or prototype to the Rapture. Here’s why it isn’t a prototype of the Rapture : They all had died! Aquinas says even Lazarus (John 11) died again even though scripture doesn’t say so. He died twice! This is based on the fact that he would have gone to the Bosom of Abraham.

I see it does state that Paul is saying he doesn't want to die. That is what "unclothed" means. I will try to find another version that might not have the euphemism expressed the same way:


2 Corinthians 5:4 New American Standard Bible

4 For indeed, we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.


Again we see the reference to the mortal being made immortal, being "swallowed up by life."

Paul did not want to be unclothed, that is, for his spirit to be separated from his earthly tabernacle. He wanted to be clothed without being unclothed. He wanted to be changed without dying. That is what he is saying here. It is a clear indication he believed the Rapture could take place at any time.

Just look through the text again:


2 Corinthians 5:1-8 King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:


He distinguishes between the body we have, this earthly body, and the body we await which is built by God. So in other words, "We know that if this earthly body were dissolved (destroyed, melted down ... died) we have hope in that body God will give us."

"We actually groan in this body, desiring to be clothed with that Body which is from Heaven/made by God (rather than a physical body that is a result of procreation."


3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


"So that we won't be naked, or in other words, without a body at all!"


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


"We are not groaning that we would be unclothed (die, be separated from our earthly body), but that we would be clothed upon (this body) that the body which is mortal would put on immortality."

Again, we do not desire to die so we can receive that body, but that we might receive that body without dying (being unclothed).



5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


"He that created us to receive that body has given us a downpayment on His promise by giving us His Spirit which we know is an Eternal Union with Him."


6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


"Therefore, we have confidence always and in whatever state we might find ourselves, whether clothed or unclothed, because we know that while we are in the earthly body we are absent from the Lord, but ..."


7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


"... our earthly walk is one of faith (which is why we are confident), and we would rather be unclothed and with the Lord."

In other words, dying is not going to result in the Heavenly body, but we know that if we are clothed we will be with the Lord.

Again, I see it as a clear statement that Paul is not desirous to die physically, and here he makes the point that when we receive that heavenly body some will be clothed upon that body with the Heavenly body, and that the mortal condition of the earthly body will be made immortal. We do not desire to be unclothed (have our spirits leave our bodies at death), but to be clothed upon (receive the Heavenly body).

I will take a look. I am already here far longer than I should have been, lol, but I have enjoyed the discussion tremendously (as is usually the case, lol).

2 Cor 5:4 For we also, who are in this tabernacle, do groan, being burthened; because we would not be unclothed, but clothed upon, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (DRV)

My Comment: You said this above about 2 Cor 5:4:

“Paul did not want to be unclothed, that is, for his spirit to be separated from his earthly tabernacle. He wanted to be clothed without being unclothed. He wanted to be changed without dying.”

OK, I can agree with you on one thing: Paul desires that his body not die and be raised. The Apostles thought the Second Coming (at the end of time) could come anytime. That’s why he thought that. In 2 Cor 5:4 when it says “do groan” it means “we desire”. We desire not to have to die to be resurrected bodily into heaven. It’s natural to not to want to die. That’s what that means.

 

[LaGrange]

I am a dichotomist, and do not view man as a "trinity," body, soul, and spirit.

We see man's creation as that of a body (the elements of the ground) and the spirit/breath of life. When God created man he became a soul, he didn't receive one. Here is the reason why I am a dichotomist:


First, to answer the OP, I take the view of the dichotomy. As it has been (in my opinion) pointed out, God created man's body, breathed spirit (life) into him, and man became a living soul, rather than received a soul.

Secondly, in answer to this question, here is something that I feel makes an impact on this doctrine:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (h2416) soul (h5315).

The word living is: ḥay.
חַי chay, khah'-ee; from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

The word soul is:nep̄eš.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

See where else they are found:

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living h2416 creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living h2416 creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


Both man and the "living creatures" were created as "souls," which is the body and the life (which is the spirit).

Now for a New Testament comparison to look for consistency:


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living g2198 soul g5590; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living g2198 soul g5590 died in the sea.

Here, living is zaō. ζάω záō, dzah'-o; a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):—life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

"Soul" is psychē. ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Both men and animals are called souls. Neither are said to possess souls. Biblical usage of soul primarily speaks of "the person" or persons. You will probably understand most passages better with that understanding. For example, one of the most abused passages used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) is the following:


Ezekiel 18:4; 20-23 KJV

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls h5315 are mine; as the soul h5315 of the father, so also the soul h5315 of the son is mine: the soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die.

20 The soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


If "soul" is an immaterial of man's make-up, then here we see a proof text for eternal damnation of the "immaterial man." However, the context is plainly temporal. In view is keeping the Law.

If we conclude this has reference to eternal judgment, rather than the penalty the Law did in fact carry—physical death—then we must equally conclude that men can receive eternal life through keeping the Law.

See the problem there?


Continued...

Darrell,
This is where our discussion deepens. I need a little more time, maybe a couple of days to research and digest, before I continue. This is so interesting! May God bless!

 

[LaGrange]

I am a dichotomist, and do not view man as a "trinity," body, soul, and spirit.

We see man's creation as that of a body (the elements of the ground) and the spirit/breath of life. When God created man he became a soul, he didn't receive one. Here is the reason why I am a dichotomist

Darrell, starting with this post I had to read ahead to try an understand what you believe. I guess it’s my fault that this discussion has expanded! I stimulated some thinking alright! Lol

My Comment: We don’t believe man is a trinity either. We believe man is made up of “body and soul” (CCC 362-368; especially read #367).

Here is the reason why I am a dichotomist:


First, to answer the OP, I take the view of the dichotomy. As it has been (in my opinion) pointed out, God created man's body, breathed spirit (life) into him, and man became a living soul, rather than received a soul

Darrell, I want to say up front that I may be criticizing something you don’t even believe in because I’m not real sure I understand what you believe. So I’m commenting on these posts the best I can.

My Comment: Soul Sleeping? I don’t think so but I’m not sure. I started thinking that in the last post because I wasn’t sure what the faithful, that died before the rapture, might be doing if you believed that the Marriage Supper started at the rapture. I didn’t state it that way. I made it sound like the faithful were already at the Marriage Supper. I’m still not real sure what you believe about this but you may believe in soul sleeping or maybe a variation of it or, at least, in a large “Intermediate State”. In post #51 you said , “So I view it as the spirit of the man going to Heaven, his body remains here until the Rapture”. My interpretation of that is it seems that even though the body dies and is corrupt in the grave, the soul is in heaven (intermediate state). Since the “Soul” is both the body and spirit (creature), the body is in heaven in some fashion. As an example you give is in post #50 when you said John “saw” the martyrs in heaven (Apoc 6:9). I disagree with your interpretation of that. He probably saw them as you would say that you saw an angelic being. You also said in post #51, “As far as what men will do when their spirit is in Heaven, I agree, they will be fellowshipping, (which I distinguish from (praising, hearing the Word and the WORD, singing…” This makes me think that you don’t believe in soul sleeping because you say the faithful that died are doing something in heaven: fellowshipping.

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living “soul”. (DRV)
Gen 2:7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living “creature”. (ESV)

My Comment: I would disagree. I don’t think you are a dichotomist but, rather, I think you see them as “undivided”. I think they are undivided, in a sense, while the creature is alive on earth. After death, they are divided. God created man’s body first and THEN breathed life into him (soul). The ESV uses “creature” instead of “soul” at the end of the verse. I think that captures the meaning better. The verse is saying:

1 body + 1 soul = 1 living person (creature) on earth.

I think you are saying you believe:

1 body/soul + 1 spirit = 1 living person (creature) on earth ???

Yes sometimes scripture describes the whole person as a “living soul” as in Gen 2:7 and in other places (Matt 16:25-26, John 15:13, Acts 2:41). However, it sometimes refers to the soul as the most important thing in man and is described in terms separate from the body (Matt 10:28, Matt 26:38).

Soul Sleeping (I’m not saying you believe this) was basically condemned at the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517). It is described in Denziger’s #738 [1440]. I think this is where it would be condemned. That’s my interpretation of this in denzigers. It says “the nature of the rational soul, namely, that it is mortal, or one in all men…” and
“this holy Council, we condemn and reject all who assert that the intellectual soul is mortal, or is one in all men…”.

The bottom line: I think what you’re getting at is that, at death, your soul goes to heaven. This means the “creature” goes to heaven in some fashion which, in my terminology, consists of body and soul.

My answer is that you can’t say you die, remain conscious in an intermediate heaven, without being judged at death, or in the grave and restored later at the rapture or restored at any other time. When you die (before the rapture) you are then judged to heaven or hell.

 

[LaGrange]

I

Secondly, in answer to this question, here is something that I feel makes an impact on this doctrine:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (h2416) soul (h5315).

The word living is: ḥay.
חַי chay, khah'-ee; from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

The word soul is:nep̄eš.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

See where else they are found:

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living h2416 creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living h2416 creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


Both man and the "living creatures" were created as "souls," which is the body and the life (which is the spirit).

Now for a New Testament comparison to look for consistency:


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living g2198 soul g5590; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living g2198 soul g5590 died in the sea.

Here, living is zaō. ζάω záō, dzah'-o; a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):—life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

"Soul" is psychē. ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Both men and animals are called souls. Neither are said to possess souls. Biblical usage of soul primarily speaks of "the person" or persons. You will probably understand most passages better with that understanding. For example, one of the most abused passages used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) is the following:


Ezekiel 18:4; 20-23 KJV

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls h5315 are mine; as the soul h5315 of the father, so also the soul h5315 of the son is mine: the soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die.

20 The soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


If "soul" is an immaterial of man's make-up, then here we see a proof text for eternal damnation of the "immaterial man." However, the context is plainly temporal. In view is keeping the Law.

If we conclude this has reference to eternal judgment, rather than the penalty the Law did in fact carry—physical death—then we must equally conclude that men can receive eternal life through keeping the Law.

See the problem there?


Continued...

My Comment: I see no problem. Did any in Israel (Jews) in the Old Testament go to hell? In Luke 16:22 a division in hell is shown and the rich man went to the hell of the damned (I will admit some think this could be Purgatory because the rich man seemed to have some Charity - Luke 16:27). In Luke 23:43, Christ says to the good thief that he will be with Him in paradise. He didn’t say that about the bad thief so, by default, he will be in the hell of the damned. What about all the Old Testament gentiles? Do you think any of them went to hell? We have to look at the judgement of the souls in the Old Testament in light of Christ’s teachings (Matt 5:21, Matt 5:27-30). Christ taught these obviously before he died and before He opened the gates of heaven so His teachings would apply to those of the Old Testament. Clearly Jesus is referring to the “Hell of the damned”. The Old Testament prophets and fathers may not have named it the “Hell of the damned” but they sure warned them of it as in Ezek 18 below. In Ezek 18 the soul is damned for not keeping the law. The sins listed here are idolatry, adultery, uncleanness, oppression, greed: Ezek 18:6–8; 11–13; 15–17). They are meant to include all the Lord’s Ten Commandments. God gave them grace to keep the Commandments. God is not going to ask them to do something that they are not capable of doing. The story here is about three generations in this order: a righteous father, a violent son who, in turn, has a righteous son. Ezek 18 is saying that each generation is held responsible for their actions but, as a group, need to do penance, kind of like in Nineveh. You know Darrell, your interpretation of this shows that our doctrines on justification play a big part in eschatology. If you don’t believe you are already saved, you cannot be raptured. It’s the Antinomian view.

You said: “Both men and animals are called souls.”
Plants have souls too but NOT immortal souls.

 

[LaGrange]

A few more examples of "soul" being used in a way that an immaterial aspect is denied:

Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls g5590.

Acts 27:37
And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls

My Comment: I showed in the previous post that there are some verses that use the term “soul” that describes the whole person, that is, body and soul. There are some verses that don’t that I showed. Grudem uses these verses to prove that the soul operates distinct from the body: 1 Cor 14:14, Rom 8:16, Luke 23:43, Phil 1:23-24, 2 Cor 5:8, Apoc 6:9. I don’t think you have a problem with that.

As to probably the greatest proof texts that the soul is an immaterial aspect of man's make-up ...

Hebrews 4:12 KJV

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

... we do see a division. However, understanding man's make-up is body and spirit, and the context of the above verse (the effect of the Word of God), it is easily reconciled, in that in view here is death. "The soul," being a reference to "the person," refers to the dividing of the spirit from the body.

My Comment: Yes, I think you mean that even though the division is shown here, the person is still one. I agree. I don’t see a problem theologically.

Soul" can be used to refer to a man or woman whether they are in the body or not:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls G5590 of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

John saw the persons who were martyrs.

My Comment: You can “see” things in different ways. Aquinas would probably say John “Saw” these souls as you would see an angelic being. I previously said that somewhere on seeing Moses at the Transfiguration.

This is tougher ...

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

... but we don't throw out an entire Bible filled with evidence of what soul means over one verse. What I believe Paul is doing here is praying for the preservation of spirit (which would refers to one's spiritual well-being), soul (which refers to one's daily life as a whole), and body (which would refer to one's physical health.

My Comment: When you try so hard to keep these undivided I’m still not sure why? Maybe I haven’t gotten to the answer yet.

Finally, on the matter of man's make-up being spirit and body, and one being a soul, rather than having one, let's look at the understanding of the disciples of Christ, and Christ's confirmation of their view:

Luke 24:36-39 KJV

Luk 24:36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Luk 24:37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

Luk 24:38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


The disciples think they are seeing "a ghost" and they are frightened. The reason they are frightened is that their understanding of a man is that he is body and spirit. They think the Lord is dead, thus they must be seeing His spirit. The Lord confirms that view by saying, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bone."

Because the spirit, if it is just a spirit, has departed from its body.

Again, a person that has departed from the body can still be properly called "a soul," because the spirit is still "the person."


This is taken from the thread Trichotomy or Dichotomy?

I don't know if "other denominations can look at the Baptist Bible Study section while logged in, but you can look at it when you aren't logged in, and can copy and paste it here to comment on. That should liven things up a little

My Comment: It seems like you are saying that the body and soul, using my terminology, are the same as just the soul by itself. Darrell, I think you are trying use this example to show somehow that the whole person when he dies, is in heaven? If I’m wrong, you are probably getting really frustrated by now. Lol OK, if that’s what you are trying to say I say Yes. I see no problem with that. Please forgive me but most of the time I can give a good answer once I understand the other side.

 

[Konstantin]

The Seventieth Week of Daniel will not begin before the rapture of "Church of the first born" (Heb.12:23)(KJV1611). Also, the seventieth week of Daniel is preceded by the invasion of Gog - the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezek.39:1) on the mountains of Israel, which will occur immediately before the start of the 70th week. At this time, the inhabitants of Israel will live safely (Ezek.38:8), despite the fact that Israel will not have at that time either its own army, or the "iron dome", or in other words, "neither barres nor gates" (Ezek.38:11) and they will only hope in the God of Israel. Israel is currently mired in idolatry. The New Testament is publicly burned on the streets of Israeli cities. One of the cities of Israel is unofficially the capital of the sodomites of the whole world. Will God punish this people for such wickedness? At present, Israel is still relying on its army and its "iron dome", while the people of Israel do not live in safety. Constant rocket attacks and terrorist attacks take place in Israel. But the rapture of the Church of the firstborn is already near, which means that between the rapture of "Church of the first born" (Heb.12:23) and the seventieth week of Daniel, there is a certain period of time. During this period of time, Israel, at a minimum, must lose its army. In addition, during this period of time the third Temple will be built (Ezek. 40). And it will be built at a time when Israel will live in safety (Ezek. 38:8). But before the third Temple is built, Israel will have to experience the destruction of Jerusalem, and another scattering. From the moment the state of Israel was formed in 1948, 84 years will pass until the destruction of Jerusalem (Luke 2:37). From that time on, Israel will again go into dispersion among the nations. But God will again gather Israel in their land, and only then Israel will live safely (Ezek.38:8) without an army and an "iron dome", until the very invasion of Gog on the mountains of Israel (Ezek.39:2).

There are significant gaps and contradictions in the doctrines of the denominations. These doctrines are spoken of in Scripture (1Tim.4:1). These doctrines not only contradict one another, they contradict biblical doctrine.

 

[LaGrange]

Hi Darrell,

I think adding this to my Post #68 is a good place


1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. (DRV)
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (KJV)

Here’s St. Augustine’s interpretation of 1 Cor 15:51:

Augustine, City of God 20.20.3

“…..when he was speaking to the Corinthians about the resurrection of the body, “We shall all rise,” or, as other mss. read, “We shall all sleep.”5 Since, then, there can be no resurrection unless death has preceded, and since we can in this passage understand by sleep nothing else than death, how shall all either sleep or rise again if so many persons whom Christ shall find in the body shall neither sleep nor rise again? If, then, we believe that the saints who shall be found alive at Christ’s coming, and shall be caught up to meet Him, shall in that same ascent pass from mortal to immortal bodies, we shall find no difficulty in the words of the apostle, either when he says, “That which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die,” (1 Cor 15:36) or when he says, “We Shall all rise,” or “all sleep,” for not even the saints shall be quickened to immortality unless they first die, however briefly; and consequently they shall not be exempt from resurrection which is preceded by sleep, however brief……”

My Comment: I think St. Augustine is saying the same thing as St. Thomas Aquinas. If you are alive on the last day you will die first.

 

[LaGrange]

So I view it as the spirit of the man going to Heaven, his body remains here until the Rapture.

Again, it is proper to call a spirit in Heaven a "soul" because it is still the person, and that is the primary meaning of the word soul: God fashioned man's body, breathed the breath/spirit of life into him, and man became a

My Comment: No problem except for the timing. I agree except for the Rapture part.

As far as what men will do when their spirit is in Heaven, I agree, they will be fellowshipping, (which I distinguish from (praising, hearing the Word and the WORD, singing
and ...

... that's where we disagree, lol. While I would not discount the prayers of those in Heaven for those on earth, I do not take the view that people in Heaven are sitting around watching our lives. Perhaps glimpses at times allowed by God, but that they are continually observing us isn't something I think likely. I can't be dogmatic, but I don't think those who take the view they are can be either.

My Comment: That’s good that you recognize that those in heaven can pray for us (Apoc 5:8). We believe the saints in heaven can appear to us occasionally (Matt 27:52-53) which shows it’s possible for souls in another abode to see us and we see them. Aquinas says: (talking about Gregory of Nyssa and contrasting him with St. Augustine) “…His opinion, indeed, seems to be the more probable one,—that the souls of the blessed who see God do know all that passes here. For they are equal to the angels, of whom Augustine says that they know what happens among those living on earth.” (STh., I q.89 a.8) He quotes St. Augustine (Augustine, On Care to Be Had for the Dead 15.18 - 18.23). I think this verse supports the equality of the saints in heaven with the angels (Luke 20:36 saints in heaven are equal to the angels). St. Augustine thought about the angels knowing what is happening on earth and, therefore, the blessed in heaven should also know, but he was still doubtful but admitted it was possible because of the angels.

we can alter the fate of those who pass. Our judgment will be based on the response to the revelation we have received from God, and it is on that which we will all be judged.

My Comment: I agree. I’m not saying we offer prayers for those in heaven or praying for those in heaven. In the quote above I’m talking about praying for those on earth. We do believe we can ask those saints in heaven to pray for us (Apoc 5:8). We believe these saints are receiving our prayer petitions and interceding for us. All the predestined are called “brethren” which shows those in heaven are still part of the church and, if still part of the church, they can intercede for us (Rom 8:29) and, as it says a few verses later, death cannot separate us (Rom 8:36).

Remember, "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment."

While I do not view all men as having to die due to Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture, I do believe we are all judged at the time of death. Meaing our eternal destinies have all been decided

My Comment: If your eternal destiny is decided at death, why is it that many think they are saved before death? That they can absolutely know? Isn’t that the same thing as judgement? God is the judge. I’m just asking because that seems to be an underlying reason why many believe you can be Raptured and NOT DIE.

Even if I allow (and I do) that hades still has a just side and a side of (everlasting) torment, those in the just side are there because of their response to God's revelation to them. They are justified as the Old Testament Saints were, in a temporal context, unlike those who are regenerated and brought into Eternal Union with God through Eternal Redemption received in their lifetime.

My Comment: I agree. This sounds like Purgatory. It’s a temporary state in the upper part of hell.

So while I allow for their judgment to be final at the Great White Throne, their eternal destinies, as it is all men, are determined while they are alive.

I will not mock those who think they can pray for the dead (and I know the Scripture this is based on, and disagree with the conclusions drawn to form that basis), and to be honest I hope I am wrong. So if you think you can pray for them, by all means, have at it, I can't see where it's going to hurt anything. I will say I caution against praying to them, though. We should only pray to God. When Christ taught His disciples to pray (and that is what we are), He taught them to pray to Our Father which is in Heaven. We are to pray in His

My Comment:
(1) Great White Throne Judgement (General Judgement)

We don’t believe their judgement to heaven or hell is “final” at the Great White Throne but, earlier, at the point of death (particular judgement - Luke 16:22, Heb 9:27). I agree that our eternal destinies are determined while they are alive if you mean by that, perseverance.

Those that are alive on the last day at the time of the Great White Throne Judgement, will somehow die first, be judged (Particular Judgement), resurrect in their glorified bodies or natural bodies and then be in the General Judgement with all the rest.

(2) General Judgement - Here’s what Dr. Ludwig Ott says about the General Judgement:

“The General Judgment serves the glorification of God and of the God-Man Jesus Christ (2 Thess. 1:10) by revealing the wisdom of God in the government of the world, His goodness and patience towards sinners and above all His rewarding justice……While in the particular judgment the human being is judged as an individual person, in the general judgment he will be judged as a member of the human society, before the whole of humanity. The punishment or reward will be completed by its extension to the re-awakened bodies. Cf. Suppl. 88, 1.” (Ott is quoting from STh., Supplementum q.88 a.1 reply obj 1).

I would add that the Book of Life will be open (Apoc 20:12) and all of man’s works, good and bad, will be judged by God and applied to man’s body and soul. All the good and bad will be made known to all (1 Cor 4:5) according to Aquinas (STh., Supplementum q.87 a.2). Maybe I’ll expand on the meaning of the General Judgement as we go along.

(3) Praying for the Dead

We believe we can pray “for” the dead because they could be in that intermediate state we call Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7). Purgatory is not a second chance. That’s not why we pray for them. We pray for them because we cannot know absolutely where they are. God judges, not us. If we pray for them and they are in Purgatory, they are purified faster and, therefore, benefit from our prayers so they can go on to heaven. If they are in heaven or in the hell of the damned, we believe the prayers are applied to someone else in the Mystical Body of Christ who is in Purgatory. This can be done because we are in one body (1 Cor 12:12-26).

 

[LaGrange]

We can't leave out an important part from any discussion, and the Rapture (as we have seen) is relevant.

My Comment: I’m not saying the Rapture isn’t relevant. I meant that I was talking about the Rapture like it was a fact and I don’t believe it is. I was using the term Rapture to point to a particular time.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb has a fixed point in time, and that time has not arrived yet:


Revelation 19:7-9 King James Version

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


This will begin at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns. I cannot go beyond what Scripture expressly states.

I can speculate, though, that there is a dual aspect to the Supper. and that the Restoration of Israel and Israel herself could be included in that, meaning there is the Heavenly fulfillment and the earthly.

My Comment: Definitely disagree with this. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb does not start in the future. There is a “dual” aspect to the supper but it’s not the restoration of the Israel of the Old Testament but rather, it is the restoration of the “New Israel”, the Catholic Church (John 15). In heaven, when we are at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:9), it will be permanent but we are already at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when we participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass here on earth! His kingdom is here on earth and in heaven (Matt 6:10, John 5:25, Mark 1:15 ). By the way, Matt 6:11 says “give us this day our super substantial bread (daily bread)”. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is past, present and future starting with the Last Supper. As we like to say “The same sacrifice made present”. (See post #19). In conclusion, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb has been going on since the Last Supper. At Mass, the priest, just before he distributes Holy Communion (Marriage Supper), elevates the Host and says “Behold the Lamb of God (John 1:29), behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb.” (Apoc 19:9)

I agree with that, because all who are in Christ from Pentecost will be raised and changed at the same time. This cannot be said of the resurrection of believers at the end of the Tribulation, nor of the resurrection of the dead at the Great White Throne.

My Comment: Good. It is also the christians who are still living right now (as I said above) and those during the Thousand Year Reign. Darrell, when you speculate that Israel may participate in the Supper of the Lamb, you are showing that this Supper can be on earth as in heaven at the same time.

Lamb. That Christ is the "Lamb slain from the foundations of the world" does not nullify that there is a specific point in time in which God created the Body of our Lord in the Womb of Mary. There is a specific point in time when Christ died in our stead. And there is a specific point in time when Christ will return.

Quite impossible for the Marriage Supper to be "timeless."

My Comment: Ha Ha OK. Bad choice of words on my part. Lol By “timeless” I didn’t mean the Supper started before Christ. What I meant by “timeless” is that, once Christ instituted the Last Supper, this Supper continues here on earth (in time) right now and in heaven forever (out of time). Also, what I’ve seen some people say (You included) that believe in the Rapture is that the Marriage Supper doesn’t start until the Rapture. That would mean the faithful who died before the Rapture would be doing nothing in heaven. They would not be participating in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb until the Rapture. It seems like that view could lead to Soul Sleeping. I’m glad you don’t believe in that.

Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

What Paul teaches here is what didn't take place prior to the Incarnation: The fullness of time hadn't come. He hadn't sent forth the Son. The Eternal Son had not been made of a woman. Mary had not conceived of the Holy Ghost. Mary had not delivered the Christ-Child. The Eternal Son had not been made under Law (He established it but was not under it). Men had not been redeemed from the Law. Men had not received the adoption of sons.

Men had not received the Spirit of Christ.

We have to maintain the timeline we are given in Scripture, or things go

My Comment: I think I’ve shown that the timeline in scripture shows that the Marriage Supper is on earth and not just in heaven.

 

[LaGrange]

The Seventieth Week of Daniel will not begin before the rapture of "Church of the first born" (Heb.12:23)(KJV1611). Also, the seventieth week of Daniel is preceded by the invasion of Gog - the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezek.39:1) on the mountains of Israel, which will occur immediately before the start of the 70th week. At this time, the inhabitants of Israel will live safely (Ezek.38:8), despite the fact that Israel will not have at that time either its own army, or the "iron dome", or in other words, "neither barres nor gates" (Ezek.38:11) and they will only hope in the God of Israel. Israel is currently mired in idolatry. The New Testament is publicly burned on the streets of Israeli cities. One of the cities of Israel is unofficially the capital of the sodomites of the whole world. Will God punish this people for such wickedness? At present, Israel is still relying on its army and its "iron dome", while the people of Israel do not live in safety. Constant rocket attacks and terrorist attacks take place in Israel. But the rapture of the Church of the firstborn is already near, which means that between the rapture of "Church of the first born" (Heb.12:23) and the seventieth week of Daniel, there is a certain period of time. During this period of time, Israel, at a minimum, must lose its army. In addition, during this period of time the third Temple will be built (Ezek. 40). And it will be built at a time when Israel will live in safety (Ezek. 38:8). But before the third Temple is built, Israel will have to experience the destruction of Jerusalem, and another scattering. From the moment the state of Israel was formed in 1948, 84 years will pass until the destruction of Jerusalem (Luke 2:37). From that time on, Israel will again go into dispersion among the nations. But God will again gather Israel in their land, and only then Israel will live safely (Ezek.38:8) without an army and an "iron dome", until the very invasion of Gog on the mountains of Israel (Ezek.39:2).

There are significant gaps and contradictions in the doctrines of the denominations. These doctrines are spoken of in Scripture (1Tim.4:1). These doctrines not only contradict one another, they contradict biblical doctrine.

Hi Konstanti,

2 Pet 3:8 But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I’m aware of Dan 9:24-27. I mentioned 2 Pet 3:8 in post #19. In general, I’m not so sure you can interpret 70 weeks as a literal seventy years. If you used 2 Pet 3:8 to interpret Dan 9, one interpretation could mean 70 weeks, with one day equaling a thousand years, would equal = 1,000 x 7 x 52 x 70 = 25,480,000 years! I admit I’m not up on Daniel very well so I may be wrong. I’ve watched Dr. Ice, Dr. Kurschner and Chuck Missler a little on Daniel. I’ve done the Apocalypse but not Daniel.

 

[Konstantin]

Hi Konstanti,

2 Pet 3:8 But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I’m aware of Dan 9:24-27. I mentioned 2 Pet 3:8 in post #19. In general, I’m not so sure you can interpret 70 weeks as a literal seventy years. If you used 2 Pet 3:8 to interpret Dan 9, one interpretation could mean 70 weeks, with one day equaling a thousand years, would equal = 1,000 x 7 x 52 x 70 = 25,480,000 years! I admit I’m not up on Daniel very well so I may be wrong. I’ve watched Dr. Ice, Dr. Kurschner and Chuck Missler a little on Daniel. I’ve done the Apocalypse but not Daniel.

Daniel's seventieth week is the last 7 years for Daniel's people, the Jews. This week is in the future.

Next, you need to take the biblical text, which speaks of 1000 years. These events take place at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ immediately after the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 19). Satan will be thrown "into the bottomlesse pit" (Rev. 20:3) (KJV1611) and bound for a thousand years. This thousand years is really like one day - the last seventh day of the existence of this Earth.

 

[LaGrange]

It's not nearly the same thing, lol. That is why we groan, brother.

At least, that is why I groan, lol. I hate this world and while I do not plead with God to end my life so I can go to Heaven, neither do I desire to be in this world any longer than I have to.

My Comment: I agree. It doesn’t change the fact that we are, individually and as a group, trying to do on earth what is being done in heaven. As I said, you are doing it now in a more obscure or dimmer way.

You nullify the argument using the word "symbolic," because that is precisely what the Lord taught Communion to be:


Luke 22:17-20 King James Version

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

My Comment: I said “symbolic” because that is what you would believe, not me. What I’m trying to show is that this “Supper” is being done on earth as it is being done in heaven pointing to the fact that the “same church” is on earth and in heaven. Both places. This is the Doctrine of the Communion of Saints. I’m trying to build on what you already know and show that you can have a continuity in scripture without having to have multiple resurrections, judgements, raptures, people walking around in glorified bodies and natural bodies at the same time, etc.

1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


It is a memorial that has no salvific significance beyond the memorial.

To make that point I would ask you to consider Passover: When they first sacrificed and spread the blood it was to prevent them from dying. It then became a memorial to be celebrated every year:


Exodus 12:13-14 King James Version

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.


No different than saying "Keep this feast in remembrance of My deliverance."

Now consider when they afterward kept this memorial: were they saved from death that would smite the land and everyone who did not partake/obey to do it?

Not at all. It was a memorial. So too, Communion is a memorial by which we obey Christ and remember His death as oft as we take of it. We are not again delivered, we do not receive salvation again, and we do not receive "more"

My Comment: Darrell, I wasn’t trying to get into the Doctrine of the Eucharist, per se, but rather to show the continuity of what is happening on earth and in heaven. It’s hard to avoid I guess. I felt that I had to answer this.

You are asking if the apostles were saved by keeping this memorial?

Yes. In the Old Testament the Jews were saved by the Passover sacrifice (Ex 12) in which they had to eat the Lamb (Ex 12:3-4). The Passover was a “Type” of the Eucharist. If you didn’t eat the lamb you would have died (v13 like you quoted).

John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. (DRV)
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

Notice here it says that whoever “eats my flesh and drinks my blood” hath “eternal Life”.

Also notice: What did Christ say He would do? Raise you up at the RAPTURE? NO. “at the LAST DAY”. (These are the Just raised up and not just the wicked as some think)

In context, John 6 was during the time of the Passover (John 6:4) and Christ compared the Eucharist (His Flesh and Blood) to the manna (bread) (John 6:31-35).

What happened to those that didn’t believe what Christ said about eating His flesh and drinking His blood?:

John 6:55 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU. (DRV)

Notice: This shows that you receive MORE grace, that is, Sanctifying Grace, to help you PERSEVERE to the end just like the manna helped the Jews persevere and make it to the Promised Land. The Promised Land signifies Heaven. There is a connection between the bread (Last Supper) and the lamb (Crucifixion).

1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh “judgment” to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

This verse shows two things: (1) The Eucharistic Sacrifice was going on much later and (2) Christ Body and Blood were really His Body and Blood. You don’t die (vs 30) from something “symbolic”. Eating and drinking unworthily brings “judgement” or “damnation”.

 

[LaGrange]

I just don't see the Scripture provided either supporting that or nullifying what we do see that would suggest otherwise.

My Comment: I’ll give just a couple of examples:

Rom 12:4-5 For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ; and every one members one of another:

Our salvation is individual but we remain in the family. Scripture describes our justification in terms of the family: ex: Adoption (Rom 8:15, Eph 1:5), inheritance (Eph 1:14, Eph 1:18, Eph 5:5), Marriage (Matt 22:2-14, Apoc 19:9)

Rom 8 -
“in Christ” v1 - “in Christ” means “in His Church and in sanctifying Grace”
“If’s” v11,13,17 - You can be “not in Christ” again
“nothing can separate us” vs 35-39 to those who are (remain) what? IN CHRIST JESUS!

1 Cor 12 - this describes the Mystical Body of Christ. It actually culminates at the end of chapter 13. Chapter 12 describes Actual Grace and chapter 13 describes Sanctifying Grace and the result is 1 Cor 13:12 which describes the Beatific Vision in heaven. As a body we start here but it ends in heaven.

Phil 2:10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

This shows that there are souls at three levels all worshipping Jesus. This is the Church Triumphant (heaven), Church Militant (earth) and Church Suffering (under the earth). (This under the earth has to be Purgatory because the Bosom of Abraham no longer existed at this point!)

But our connection is not between ourselves, LaGrange, it is to Christ.

We are made one in Him. While I agree we are one and one body, we are one because we are in Christ, not each other.

I hope that makes sense, lol.

My Comment: I understand where you are coming from. It’s true that, if we are “in Christ”, Christ is in us, however, we are in a family too (see verses above). It’s both and both are necessary. The family raises us to follow Christ by teaching us, etc. The grace flows from Christ “through” the family. The family worships on Sunday and the family continues in heaven (marriage feast).

It is One Spirit:


Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


One Spirit, one baptism, the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

He is in us all, that doesn't equate to we are all in each other.

My Comment: Here’s a little context:

Eph 1:22-23 The Church is the fullness of Him (Jesus)
Eph 2:19 we have the saints and the sacraments at our fingertips
Eph 3:10 the church teaches angels.
Eph 3:20-21 the church will teach in every generation
Eph 4:5 the church will teach one Lord, ONE Faith, one baptism - not 33,000 faiths (this shows it is ONE BODY)
Eph 4:11 describes a hierarchial church

Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


One Spirit, one baptism, the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

He is in us all, that doesn't equate to we are all in each other. Our "communion" is through our Union with Christ:


John 14:15-23 King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Here we see that we are indwelt by God and placed in God. It is the eternal (contrasted with the Consolation of Israel departing through death) union with God the Father (v.23), the Son (vv.18 and 21, and implied in v.21), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17).

Note that we will be in Him, and He will be in us. We don't see we will be in each other.

So I would not agree that we are "connected" in a manner that has an eternal union between believers in the sense that we have with God. And it is through the Eternal Union, by which we have communion/relationship with

My Comment: You said about these verses: “We don't see we will be in each other.”

I know you worry about that and assume Catholics aren’t “Christ Centered”. The very center of our worship is the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (Apoc 19:9) or what we call the “Eucharist”. Of course, we hear the “Word” and a sermon too. We don’t go to church to “fellowship” but to “Worship Christ” in the Eucharist. We do fellowship, as you call it, but that’s not the center. This is why we are required to keep the commandment, “Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath day” (Ex 20:8).

Anyway, to the point: The better way to say “We don't see we will be in each other” would be to say “we don’t see where it is necessary to be in a family or group”. Well, in context, look at the next chapter, John 15. John 15 is the parable of the Vine and Branches. It’s true Christ has to be in us but the picture here, of the vine and branches, is that it is ONE thing. Just two chapters later, Christ says, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (John 17:21). Later, I may go more into why this is necessary. You are going to be in the church in heaven ( Ark = Church = Apoc 11:19).

 

[LaGrange]

Daniel's seventieth week is the last 7 years for Daniel's people, the Jews. This week is in the future.

Next, you need to take the biblical text, which speaks of 1000 years. These events take place at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ immediately after the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 19). Satan will be thrown "into the bottomlesse pit" (Rev. 20:3) (KJV1611) and bound for a thousand years. This thousand years is really like one day - the last seventh day of the existence of this Earth.

Hi Konstantin,

I shouldn’t have used 2 Pet 3:8. Lol I was really kidding but I don’t believe in a literal, down to the day, thousand year reign. I believe in a minority view in the Catholic Church which says you can believe there is a thousand year reign after the tribulation if you want to but not down to the day and minute. For example, It could be a thousand years plus one minute or it could be forty years. I believe it could be either one of those. I know the 70 weeks is suppose to begin in 444 bc and ends with the Crucifixion of Christ (69 weeks) according to Dr. Thomas Ice. Then there is a gap until the Rapture and, from the rapture, 7 weeks (or years) of the Tribulation to the the Second Coming of Christ. Really neat and thought out theory. I just think you have to step on a lot of doctrine to accept this. I think there has to be another way.

 

[LaGrange]

Luke 22:17-20 King James Version

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


It is a memorial that has no salvific significance beyond the memorial.

To make that point I would ask you to consider Passover: When they first sacrificed and spread the blood it was to prevent them from dying. It then became a memorial to be celebrated every year:


Exodus 12:13-14 King James Version

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.


No different than saying "Keep this feast in remembrance of My deliverance."

Now consider when they afterward kept this memorial: were they saved from death that would smite the land and everyone who did not partake/obey to do it?

Not at all. It was a memorial. So too, Communion is a memorial by which we obey Christ and remember His death as oft as we take of it. We are not again delivered, we do not receive salvation again, and we do not receive "more"

This is an addition to my Post #95

Darrell, You were asking if the apostles were saved by keeping this memorial in the Old Testament? Post #95

I think you were trying to say that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb was only in heaven and only in the future and Communion here on earth was just symbolic.

After I posted this, I felt I needed to clarify:

The apostles were not saved (could go to heaven) by the Old Testament Sacrifices as that could only be accomplished through the Sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The annual memorial sacrifice was a remembrance of the Passover Sacrifice. The Passover Sacrifice in Ex 12 clearly was a “type” of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which give us the grace to persevere unto eternal life. The Passover Sacrifice was BOTH a “meal” and a “Sacrifice” just like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Luke 22:8, Luke 22:11, Luke 22:15). The Last Supper and the Crucifixion took place at the same time as the Passover.

 

[LaGrange]

I give no attention to the doctrines found among men. I will agree with what I view as truth and disagree with where I see they go wrong.

And I trust God to correct me if I am wrong about something as He leads and guides me unto all truth. We might see through a glass darkly, but Scripture was given for the express purpose of understanding what He has revealed to us. Not everything that can be known is revealed, but what has been we have a mandate to learn and to get it right, lol.

My Comment: I’m sure you don’t but you should. Even the Calvinists on monergism.com speak highly of the Creed. One article said “The Creeds are God’s Gifts to the Church”. They also quote extensively from the Council of Orange (529ad). Maybe God is leading you to the Nicene Creed? If you rely only on scripture alone you end up with thousands of Christian denominations. No Unity of doctrine.

I agree, in a temporal context. I do not view our prayers to effect change in the eternal destinies of those who have already died, though.

One's fate is sealed when they die here, and they will be judged according to their response to the revelation God did give them, and this I think will be according to their understanding.

God holds men accountable for what they understand, not what they don't. The Spirit of God has been enlightening men from Day Six so no man will stand before God and say "But ... you never told me!"

My Comment: I answered this regarding prayers in my third comment on post #91

I reject the notion of purgatory altogether, sorry.

I do believe in hades, and that it is divided still, but their fates were sealed at death.


Hebrews 3:7-12 King James Version

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


Today is the day of salvation:


2 Corinthians 6 King James Version

1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

My Comment: The fate of those in Purgatory were sealed at death. They will go on to heaven. Here’s what the catechism says:

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed “assured of their eternal salvation”; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC #1030)

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final “purification of the elect”, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: (CCC #1031)

When you quote 2 Cor 6:1-2, look at verse one:
“beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain”. This means grace is resistible. While we are alive on earth, every day is the day of salvation. Paul is calling on the Corinthians to cooperate more faithfully with the graces they have received and to reconcile with God. Their salvation depends on it. It looks like he was quoting Isaiah (Is 49:8). Another cross reference is Is 55:6.

 

[LaGrange]

I just can't agree, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb has a specific point in time at which time it will commence.

The Bride had to be created, made clean, and then presented.

My Comment: The Bride is the Church! The Church is already in heaven as I’ve said elsewhere. The Bride (Church) is already clean (Holy) here on earth (Eph 5:25-27). Also it’s another proposition and attribute in the Nicene Creed which says, “One, HOLY, Catholic and Apostolic CHURCH….” Notice is says “Holy”. It’s holy because it’s founder, Jesus Christ, is holy and and because it’s purpose is to bring men to sanctity and Union with God.

might reread Revelation, there are definitely things going on in Heaven that aren't taking place on earth. The Angels that unleash the judgments are not on earth, for example.

Okay, you asked for it, lol, and there it is. I did enjoy addressing the points, though. Not sure if I am going to be able to get to 19, but I will see.

My Comment: That’s one interpretation “that the angels, that unleash the judgements, are not on earth”. Would you agree that angels are here on earth right now? Would you agree that angels could be men? (Apoc 1:20, Mal 2:7)