Rapture Question

[Mathetes66]

God states in Romans 5:12,14,15,17 that death came into the world through one man, Adam.

37818, you seem to think that death existed prior to the fall because in your human reasoning you think that plants had to die. That would be using finite human logic. Let's consider that from Scripture, the WHOLE counsel of Scripture.

When God created the heavens & the earth in six literal days (each one with an evening & a morning and a numerical number (except the 7th day missing the evening & the morning, as later in Scripture we understand why--Ex 20:31:13,17; )--it appears He made everything MATURE & didn't start from seeds, etc. (man didn't start as a baby, the trees in the garden were mature already with fruit, etc.). To eat part of the grass or herb or fruit from a tree would not 'kill' them (coming from your humanistic reasoning)

When God created the plant life, did God say the breath of life was in plants or that plants had a living soul, like man, the animals, birds, etc., so that they could die? No. It is nowhere mentioned in Scripture.

Gen 1:28-31 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth & every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air & to everything that creeps on the earth, IN WHICH THERE IS LIFE, I have given every green herb for food” & it was so. 31Then God saw everything that He had made & indeed it was very good. So the evening & the morning were the 6th day.

God did not say that the plants, herbs & trees HAD LIFE IN THEM like man, beasts, birds, etc., only those that He mentioned. Thus in 6 days, all was VERY GOOD.

When God had Noah & his family enter the ark, what did God say would DIE in the flood? Did God have Noah PRESERVE all the plant life on the ark because it would die? No, only those things that had LIFE IN THEM, the breath of life. When the flood waters receded, plants were still there (dove plucked an olive leaf and brought it back to Noah).

Gen 2:16,17 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did God say when Adam ate freely of the trees of the garden, that THEY would die? No. He only said if he ate of one particular tree, then he would SURELY DIE. (double emphasis in Hebrew: 'IN DYING, you WILL DIE') God did not want them to experiencially know or have knowledge of both what is good AND what is evil. It was potential but not actual before they ate. What led to them DYING?

SIN! Do plants sin so that they can die? No. Does mankind so wrong? Yes. Do dogs, animals, birds, do wrong? Yes. Do plants do wrong? No.

You said that death is good. Does God view death as good & a part of His original creation, which was very good? Let us examine the whole counsel of God on this.

I Cor 15:25,26 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH.

Heb 2:14,15 Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 & free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Death is evil not good. Many more verses could be shared but I will stop here. I hope that is helpful from a Scriptural perspective.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello again, LaGrange, and thanks for the response. I am taking my leave of the forum for a while (I only do short periods at a time because I love discussion so much that is probably all I would do if I don't discipline myself, lol) but I try to monitor the forum to follow up on issues that are left hanging.

Just wanted to mention, in case you weren't aware of it, that you can break up your antagonist's (and antagonist isn't a negate term, just someone bringing the differing view) post very easily and be able to get the timestamp and link in there.

Just as you would copy and paste, hold the right button down and highlight the portion of the post you want to respond to, and below that you will see QUOTE/REPLY. If you hit QUOTE it will save that portion for you, and when you go to the box at the bottom of the page (I call it the quote box or response box) you will see INSERT QUOTE. Click on that and what you have saved to quotes will appear for you to answer. If you hit REPLY it will take you directly to the response box.

Just wanted to mention that in case you weren't familiar with t. This is one of the features I love about this forum.

I will change my own statements to purple/blue to make it easier to distinguish who is say what in the replies.

DarrellC: quoted Luke 24:39, John 1:11-13

Being born of God (v.13) is a result of God's will. Not of blood (we are not born being members of the Kingdom), not of the will of the flesh (we do not become born of God because we determine to be), and not of the will of man (other men do not bring about being born of God in other men).
So the first point I would make is that we are not seeing a prohibition of men being alive going into Heaven. In the Rapture, we will, if we are still physically alive, be made like Christ and receive the redemption of our bodies. We will have never died, and we will, like Christ, have flesh and bone.
When we consider Christ's teaching concerning being born again, we are told no man will enter the Kingdom of God except he be born again. Two kingdoms have to be understood in the teaching as both being literal: the Kingdom God promised Israel (the Millennial Kingdom of Revelation 20), and the Kingdom of God which is the realm we enter when we are born again. Regeneration, or, New Birth, or, being born from above, or, being born of God all refer to the same thing. And no man will enter into either the Kingdom promised to Israel or the spiritual realm we have entered into when we were born of God and became sons of God.
So the answer to the question, "How can this be," is the same as the one given to Nicodemus some two thousand years ago:

My Comment: First, I agree that, in order to be Raptured, you would have to be born again. This still doesn’t mean that you won’t have to physically die first. All the Christians who died physically before the Rapture would have been “born again”. I really think the problem is the timing. If you moved the Rapture to the very last day, then you would have a good reason to think it may be possible to be taken up without dying, although, as I said before, even then I think you would still have to die, maybe in some mysterious way.

You could be right, but I see we will be given bodies like unto Christ's body when He arose. Here is a description of that:


1 Corinthians 15:51-55 King James Version

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The first point would be that Paul states specifically "... we shall not all sleep," and "sleep" is a euphemism for death. So He is saying "... we shall not all die." That would tell me we do not have to die in order to be changed.

Secondly, we see the dead are (physically) dead and raised from the dead, but we see how those who are alive are changed. We see that which is corruptible putting on incorruption, and that which is mortal putting on immortality. So the point I would make here is that we must be mortal in order to put on immortality, meaning, we must still be alive for that particular truth to match the description. The dead are not "mortal" any longer, they are dead. Only the living are mortal, and lie in death's view.

Third, Paul strips death of victory. "Death, where thy sting. Grave, where is your victory." Those that died felt the sting of death, and were "defeated" by death in the temporal context.

My Comment: When you say the “Kingdom of God which is the realm we enter when we are born again”, it means you enter the kingdom here on earth (Matt 3:2, Mark 1:15). This is what we call the Church Militant. I talk some about this in posts #15 and 19. When you have time, I would be interested in what you think of these posts.

If I have time I will certainly take a look. Sounds like we are alike, and that we both like to have our views come under scrutiny, lol. That's the best way to hone our Theology, when others can point issues we might have.

Darrellc: quoted John 3:3-5,

Again, two kingdoms in view: the one Nicodemus was familiar with (he is rebuked because he limits his understanding of Christ's teaching to a physical nature, he should have been thinking along the lines of Ezekiel 36:27 an Ezekiel 37 (the valley of dry bones/dead Israel)); and the one Christ was speaking about that we who are born again understand, the spiritual rule and reign of God in the Church He would begin building at Pentecost.
No man will enter either except they be born again, and we do not have to die to receive that life. We are dead when we receive that life, and we receive eternal life because we are brought into Eternal Union with God when we a rebaptized into Christ.

My Comment: It’s the same here. I’m not questioning whether or not you have to be a Christian to be Raptured. You still have to die physically.

Again, I see a distinction drawn between those that have died when the Rapture takes place, and those that are still alive:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 King James Version

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


There is nothing said about our having to die in order to be caught up together with them that are already dead and have been raised from the dead. We are just told that we will be changed.

Now here is what I mean when I said you might be right (in regards to "a mysterious death"): we are going to be "resurrected" in the sense of the flesh being glorified. It will still be a flesh-and-bone body (Luke 24:39), but it will be significantly different than what we have now in the sense of it being an everlasting body impervious to death. So I would not dogmatically deny that as a form of "death" in a context like that.

I do still hold to the position that we do not die physically, but that this mortal frame takes on immortality.

Something else to throw in for consideration on this issue: I take the position that Enoch did not "see" death as we do when we die, meaning, he was translated from the body and taken to sheol/hades. So too, when we are changed, that change will be similar to Enoch's translation.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

DarrellC: quoted John 3:9, 14-16

Nicodemus asks "How can a man be born from above (born of God)? How can a man be born of the Spirit and water?
Christ answers his question:
So, we see the same thing we see in John 1:11-13, being born of God is a result of Christ coming, and here we see that the condition for man to be born from above/of God/of the Spirit is that Christ must be raised up. The picture of the brazen serpent is that whoever looked to it would not die. Similarly, we who look to Christ will, according to His teaching, will never die/perish. Physically, yes, but we have a life we did not have when we were physically conceived and born into this world.
When the Rapture takes place, we are immediately glorified (following the resurrection of those who died in Christ) and will go to be with Him forevermore. We will not die physically, and will in fact have flesh and bone as He did.

My Comment: If you moved the Rapture to the last day I would basically agree with you. Why? Because after the last day the earth would be destroyed and there would be a new heaven and a new earth (Apoc 21:1). So all those on earth would then have to go somewhere. I’m not sure how you would think about that. I think most would think that the new heavens and the new earth would follow the Great White Throne Judgement (Apoc 20:11). My view is a little different.

At the Great White Throne (which is followed by the creation of the new heavens/universe and earth) all that are dead are raised:


Revelation 20 King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


The existing heavens and earth are already gone at this time. We are only told that the dead stand before the Great White Throne. These who are dead are raised up (v.6), resurrected into bodies also suitable to an everlasting existence. The reference to the sea giving up the dead speaks of the natural body being raised. The reference to death and hades giving up the dead is a reference to the spirit being raised.

They "live again" but this is not the Life of Christ they have, it is a resurrection of the dead similar to Lazarus, who was also raised but did not receive the Resurrection unto Life. Where I might differ from others on this is that I see a distinct possibility in Scripture that there may just be those who receive the resurrection of life at the Great White Throne. There are those who never received the Gospel thus were not able to receive the Resurrection unto life during their lifetimes as we have, but were obedient to the revelation they received during their lifetimes, thus were justified like as many of the Old Testament Saints were. Like the Old Testament Saints, I see a possibility that there is still a Just Side of Hades for people like that. The Gospel was not revealed to any man or woman in the Old Testament. Yes, the Gospel was given to them (i.e., Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 53), but understanding was withheld. They died awaiting Eternal Redemption through the Cross and the Resurrection. So too, it may be that even today God remains constant in grace and mercy, and that as He has always done, He will judge men according to their response to the revelation they did receive (the testimony of Creation, the internal witness (Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:13-16). The same would be true, I believe, for those who die today who do not get the opportunity to grow up and receive the revelation of the Comforter. Babies that die and/or murdered in the womb; very young children; those mentally incapacitated.

I am not dogmatic on that, but I see a consistency throughout Scripture that God has always judged men according to the response to the revelation He gives them in their day. That begins with Adam, who was disobedient to the revealed will of God in regards to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Thanks Darrel for all your input!

My pleasure, lol, it's one of the great passions of my life.

DarrellC: quote (continued from post#20)

Not everyone takes that position and think that physically both of these men died.
Enoch did not "see death" which I view as he did not experience death as most do, he was immediately translated to Sheol much the same way we will be translated from one condition to another.

My Comment: In order for Enoch to go to the Bosom of Abraham, he had to die physically because it is in the upper part of hell. So who do you think are the Two Witnesses? If you think Enoch went to the Bosom of Abraham, then there has to be another witness.

"Death" is separation, and I view Enoch and Elijah to have been separated from their physical bodies before they entered into sheol.

In regards to the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, I think it very likely they will be contemporary men called of God in that day, rather than Enoch and Elijah because "they never died."

I will say George Antonios makes some pretty good points as to why they might be Moses and Elijah. I have no problem thinking God will resurrect Moses and Elijah in that day, and a point George makes is that they are both mentioned in the last Prophecy of the Hebrew Scriptures:


Malachi 4:4-6 King James Version

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


This is literally God's last word of Prophecy prior to the Intertestamental Period and both men are mentioned. While I would not be dogmatic either way, I think God might raise them as He raised Lazarus, and that they would have to be mortal because they die, lie in the street 3 1/2 days, are resurrected unto life, and raptured:


Revelation 11:11-12 King James Version

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Moses and Elijah do appear at the Mount of Transfiguration, and this could be telling. Meaning a preview of their resurrection in the end time.

But another possibility is that they are not Moses and Elijah, but contemporary. Christ states the prophecy above was fulfilled in john the Baptist:


Matthew 17:11-13 King James Version

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


I still think the prophecy of Malachi 4 is yet unfulfilled in its final fulfillment, but just as John the Baptist fulfilled it and wasn't Elijah, even so I think it possible other men could fulfill this.

If you get the time, watch the video George Antonios posted in the thread about Ezekiel. It's very interesting and has me thinking about the Two Witnesses hard, lol.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Elijah was caught up to "heaven" but not, in my view, to Heaven. I do not see men going to Heaven in the Old Testament, because 1) we are told they go to Sheol, and 2) I view Christ as liberating those who had not yet been eternally redeemed which can only be accomplished by Christ (Hebrews 9:12-15). Their transgressions were redeemed by His death in their stead, thus making the imputation of His righteousness possible, thus making their entrance to God possible.
Entrance to God was not something that took place in the Old Testament. The closest thing to coming into God's presence in His realm (Heaven) is the Tabernacle and Temple, which we are told was only a parable for that time until the True came:

My Comment: I agree Elijah didn’t go to heaven as we think of heaven because the gates of heaven weren’t open. I said that already. Do you think Elijah is one of the Witnesses? Why?

I think he could be, but I think that is something we cannot be dogmatic about. It's just as likely it will be a man contemporary to the times.


[QUOTE="LaGrange, post: 2796152, member: 17752"]DarrellC: quotes Heb 9:7-9

See the link.
Men had no access to Heaven prior to the Cross. It's not my opinion, it's the clear and incontrovertible statement of Scripture.
Christ made access to Heaven possible:

My Comment: Men may not have had access to heaven but they all had to die and they did except Elijah and Enoch.[/QUOTE]

I view both to have also died, but do not view that as having a bearing on this issue.

Paul states we shall not all die:


1 Corinthians 15:51-52 King James Version

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The "we" in v.52 refers to those he is writing to. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. Both the dead and the living are "changed."

So I am not sure how we can look at Paul's statement, "... we shall not all die," and not take it to mean we won't die in order to be changed.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

DarrellC: quotes Heb 9:11

"Not of this building" is a contrast between Heaven and the earthly. The High Priest alone had access, in parable only, and himself only.

My Comment: Christ had access. This doesn’t answer why christians don’t have to physically die.

Again, I would answer that as because Paul makes the statement "... we shall not all die."

Sleep is a euphemism for death. When Lazarus died, he was said to be sleeping. When the Old Testament Saints died, they "slept with their fathers."

DarrellC: quotes Heb 9:24

See link. Here the holy places (the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle (and Temple)) are described as an antitype.
The High Priest of Levitical Service did not enter Heaven. Christ did. And if their High Priest did not actually enter Heaven, why would we think his exclusive access to the parable and antitype of the True, that is, Heaven itself—why would we think men did in general?
Now see who has access:

DarrellC: quotes Heb 10:19-20

The veil of the Tabernacle and Temple was the veil the High Priest went through to enter the Holy of Holies.
The veil our Great High Priest went through was the Body created in the womb of Mary. He went into the presence of God by passing through the veil that the fabric of the earthly veil was a parable/figure of. The earthly was not the true, the heavenly was.
And we (the redeemed) can now enter in the Holiest (Heaven) through that veil, that is, His flesh, that is—His Death (in our stead).
So I see that beginning with "Enoch and Elijah didn't die physically" as a faulty premise to base a conclusion on.
And it has no bearing on why we can enter into Heaven in glorified bodies at the Rapture.

My Comment: Christ died. We can enter that veil but we still have to die first. The reasons you are giving really don’t have anything to do with whether you have to die first. You are showing that you have to be redeemed and justified, that is, be a christian before you can enter heaven. I agree but you still haven’t explained why these Christians don’t have to die. If we follow Christ, therefore we are a christian, then we must suffer and die before we go to heaven. That’s what Christ did, He died.

I have to give the same answer: "... we shall not all sleep."

DarrellC: quotes: Many theologians believed you have to die in order to go to heaven as we think of heaven (Aquinas, STh., III q.49 a.5 ad 2).

And I would say that the Doctrine of the Rapture makes it clear that men do not have to die in order to go to Heaven.
They do, however, likely have to be glorified if they are alive.
John was "in the spirit" when he was given the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

My Comment: John physically died later.

I agree.

Paul wasn't sure if it was in the body or out of the body (in spirit only) when he was caught up to Heaven. I think it was in the spirit as is the case of John, but I am not dogmatic, but let's face it, God can allow that which He pleases.

My Comment: Yes God can make exceptions but why would He do that before the very end? Why to this particular group and NTHER CHRISTIANS?

I don't think we can conclude this won't happen to other Christians. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom there will be living believers at that time also. They will not need to die either. I think they will be changed without dying as well.

To take that point a little further, at the end of the Tribulation, believers live physically and enter the Kingdom physically. This is where the multitude that joins ranks with Satan come from:


Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Paul may very well have been caught up in his physical form, because Paul was already redeemed on an eternal basis (whereas Enoch and Elijah were not).
So I would say as a general principle it will be when the Rapture takes place that we see men enter into Heaven without dying, but we might have an example in Paul of an eternally redeemed saint entering Heaven in his earthly body.

My Comment: Paul had his head cut off according to Eusebius. So do you think Paul went to heaven permanently without physically dying? Are you referring to 1 Cor 12:2,4? Paul is speaking of himself but he says he doesn’t even know for sure if he was in his body or not. Even if he was, he still came back to earth. He didn’t stay there. I think it was a rapture (Latin = Rapt) in spirit and it says he “heard” secret words but didn’t “see” which would point to the beatific vision. This is a sign that he was returning.

My reference was to what I view an out-of-body experience Paul had:


2 Corinthians 12:1-3 King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)


This happened during Paul's lifetime, and is a separate issue from Paul's death. I believe he went into the Thrid Heaven (God's Realm, Heaven) in the spirit, just as John does:


Revelation 4 King James Version

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


I do not view unredeemed flesh as capable of coming into God's presence in His realm, which is why I dogmatically reject the notion of Enoch and Elijah "not dying." They died, went to sheol (the Just side), and were redeemed by Christ when Christ died for them.

One interesting discussion is whether the Old Testament Saints will be resurrected in the Rapture. I tend to lean to them not being glorified, but do think it likely they be resurrected bodily as Lazarus was:


Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul did die physically, though he wanted to be raptured (2 Corinthians 5:1-8).


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said:The only exception may be those who are alive at the end of time.

Just prior to this creation passing away we see the dead raised from sheol/hades, the sea, et cetera, and they are resurrected one and all. They will have bodies suitable for eternal separation from God. They will be judged, and go to their eternal destinies.
So in the physical sense, all will be "alive," but in a spiritual sense only those who have the Life of Christ (Eternal Life) will enter into the Kingdom. Only those born again. That is the incontrovertible statement of Scripture, and Scripture cannot be broken.

My Comment: I agree but notice: This is at the END OF TIME.

Correct. An entirely different event from the Rapture.

At the Rapture we go to be with Jesus. At the end of the Tribulation He returns. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom the heavens and the earth pass away and the Great White Throne judgment takes place. As I said, I believe it likely there will be a rapture at the end of the Tribulation, just as there is one in Revelation 11. But another distinctive of the Rapture is that only believers are raised (whereas at the Great White Throne it is the dead being raised). Furthermore, all believers are raised/changed at the Rapture, and there is no mention of unbelievers being raised. It could be that Paul simply doesn't mention this, but usually Scripture gives us enough to come to conclusions that are themselves distinctive.

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said: ↑
I am not even sure of that because, due to Original Sin (Rom 5:12),

Adam was a physical man that had the Tree of Life as a means of "everlasting life."
Death in man is a result of loss of access to that Tree:

Gen 3:22-24

Sin is the result of the loss of the direct communion man had with God in the Garden.
Men sin because they are separated from God. Men die because the wages of sin is death.

My Comment: Here you are describing the effects of Original Sin. Because of this ALL men must die including Enoch and Elijah and that’s why they are coming back and dying (Apoc 11:12).

Not all men:


1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,





Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said: ↑
ALL must die (Heb 9:27).

quotes 1 Thess 4:15-17 “we are alive”

Isn't that something that should comfort? (1 Thess 4:18)

My Comment: Notice: My quote above (Heb 9:27) and yours (1 Thess 4:15-17) are both in the Bible so how are these reconciled? All must die, including christians, but all the Christians at the very end of time will receive their glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:53 - this verse is not the rapture, Apoc 21:4).

If you do not see 1 Corinthians 15 as a reference to the Rapture I am not sure what more I might be able to say. It is descriptive of the change believers receive. Can I ask how you would view this as not a reference to the Rapture (and this will probably be my last interaction in this thread, as I have to take my leave)? How can instantaneously being changed from mortal to immortal not be the Rapture? How can "... we shall not all die" be anything but a direct statement that "...not all men shall die, but...?"

Secondly, I view Hebrews 9:27 as the general rule, rather than an absolute. An example of another would be, "There is none righteous, no, not one." But now there are those who are righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ, right?

Hebrews 9:27 is a quote (or probably better to say a reiteration), basically, and refers to the general principle of death:


Ecclesiastes 3:20 King James Version

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 3:2
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;


I would just suggest to you that the Writer of the Book of Hebrews is making the point, "It is appointed to man to die, and after this comes judgment. Christ died that death that man awaits, for all sin, so must all die."

This is the Gospel, it refers to the fact that the death we owe has been accomplished by Christ. That speaks of both physical death as well as the Second death.

So I would view Hebrews 9 to be supportive of the fact the death we owe was accomplished in Christ, rather than viewing it as a concrete rule that hasn't been made obsolete in Christ, just as the (Covenant of) Law was.

Think about it LaGrange: it was a concrete rule then Paul could not say "... we shall not all die."


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

DarrellC: quotes LaGrange said:
Also, to receive the Beatific Vision (1 Cor 13:12), that is, see the Essence of God, you must die (Ex 33:20), according to Aquinas (STh., I q.12 a.11).

Have to disagree with that. Nowhere does Paul say he has to die that he doesn't see through a glass darkly. Seeing that it is to his teaching the Doctrine of the Rapture is ascribed, I think we should heed what he has to say on the subject.
He groaned for the redeemed body:

My Comment: 1 Cor 13:12 and 1 Cor 13:9 are both referring to an incomplete knowledge of God we have that we receive when we enter heaven. 1 John 3:2 says the same thing. This is heaven and not the rapture. If this was the Rapture then “seeing in a dark glass then face to face” would be the process of the Rapture rather than the result of a change which is heaven. 1 Cor 13:10 speaks of “when that which is perfect is come”, which is referring to heaven, and that Charity remains (1 Cor 13:8). This shows that this is speaking of the beatific vision in heaven and not the Rapture.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 King James Version

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


I take this as a reference to the Eternal State, rather than simply entering Heaven. We see those in Heaven who do not have full knowledge:


Revelation 6:9-11 King James Version

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


In the Eternal State, and then only, will we have perfection/completion in knowledge.

quotes Rom 8:23

And he did not make death a requirement:

Quotes 2 Cor 5:1-4
V3 Yet so that we be found clothed, not naked.
V4 For we also, who are in this tabernacle, do groan, being burthened; because we would not be unclothed, but clothed upon, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

It's right there: we groan to be clothed upon with that building of God, the glorified body. That is our eternal tabernacle.
Being "found naked" is a reference to our spirits not having a body, which is the state we will be in if we do die before the Rapture (v.3).
In v.4 he says we that are in this tabernacle (the earthly body) do groan because we suffer in it. But, he says we do not groan to be unclothed, that is, we do not groan to die because this tabernacle is burdensome, but that we would be clothed upon with that heavenly body.
Mortality being swallowed up by life, and is the corruptible body being replaced with the incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). That cannot happen if we die.

My Comment: This replacement of a corruptible body with an incorruptle one means dying. The last part of 1 Cor 15:54 says “Death is swallowed up in victory”.

I would agree. We see a pairing in the description: the dead (corrupted) made incorruptible, and the living (mortal) made immortal. Both apply to both as our bodies are corruptible as we speak/type, lol, but there's a "them and us" quality to be seen as well.

It also states ".where is thy sting," which can be viewed as "You didn't get me, old boy!" lol

It's going to be determined by your perspective.

But what isn't open for debate is that Paul states clearly "... we shall not all die."

That means not all men are going to die, but all men (believers) will be changed. We have to stick to what is written.

So the reason one can go to Heaven without dying is due to the fact that we serve the Almighty, and He makes it possible that men will not perish. This is particularly true in the Rapture because we see that every single member of the Body that is still alive when the Church is caught up will not die physically.
God bless

My Comment: You quoted 2 Cor 5:1-4 but, in context, reading a little further, 2 Cor 5:8 says “We are confident, I say, and o”willing” rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (KJV). Paul desires to be present with the Lord but that doesn’t me he will. He says he has “confidence” but not absolute assurance, but notice: This says nothing about you not having to physically die before going to heaven. Matter of fact it says “absent from the body” which seems to go against the Rapture which includes the body.

I see it does state that Paul is saying he doesn't want to die. That is what "unclothed" means. I will try to find another version that might not have the euphemism expressed the same way:


2 Corinthians 5:4 New American Standard Bible

4 For indeed, we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.


Again we see the reference to the mortal being made immortal, being "swallowed up by life."

Paul did not want to be unclothed, that is, for his spirit to be separated from his earthly tabernacle. He wanted to be clothed without being unclothed. He wanted to be changed without dying. That is what he is saying here. It is a clear indication he believed the Rapture could take place at any time.

Just look through the text again:


2 Corinthians 5:1-8 King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:


He distinguishes between the body we have, this earthly body, and the body we await which is built by God. So in other words, "We know that if this earthly body were dissolved (destroyed, melted down ... died) we have hope in that body God will give us."

"We actually groan in this body, desiring to be clothed with that Body which is from Heaven/made by God (rather than a physical body that is a result of procreation."


3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


"So that we won't be naked, or in other words, without a body at all!"


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


"We are not groaning that we would be unclothed (die, be separated from our earthly body), but that we would be clothed upon (this body) that the body which is mortal would put on immortality."

Again, we do not desire to die so we can receive that body, but that we might receive that body without dying (being unclothed).



5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


"He that created us to receive that body has given us a downpayment on His promise by giving us His Spirit which we know is an Eternal Union with Him."


6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


"Therefore, we have confidence always and in whatever state we might find ourselves, whether clothed or unclothed, because we know that while we are in the earthly body we are absent from the Lord, but ..."


7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


"... our earthly walk is one of faith (which is why we are confident), and we would rather be unclothed and with the Lord."

In other words, dying is not going to result in the Heavenly body, but we know that if we are clothed we will be with the Lord.

Again, I see it as a clear statement that Paul is not desirous to die physically, and here he makes the point that when we receive that heavenly body some will be clothed upon that body with the Heavenly body, and that the mortal condition of the earthly body will be made immortal. We do not desire to be unclothed (have our spirits leave our bodies at death), but to be clothed upon (receive the Heavenly body).

Darrell, thanks for your input. I would be interested in your comments on posts
# 15 and 19. Thanks again!

I will take a look. I am already here far longer than I should have been, lol, but I have enjoyed the discussion tremendously (as is usually the case, lol).


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Everyone,

Rapture and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

I want to try to expand a little bit and paint a picture that may stimulate some thinking.

1. Most of us believe that when you die your soul immediately goes to heaven or hell. Later, at some point, you receive your glorified body.

I am a dichotomist, and do not view man as a "trinity," body, soul, and spirit.

We see man's creation as that of a body (the elements of the ground) and the spirit/breath of life. When God created man he became a soul, he didn't receive one. Here is the reason why I am a dichotomist:


First, to answer the OP, I take the view of the dichotomy. As it has been (in my opinion) pointed out, God created man's body, breathed spirit (life) into him, and man became a living soul, rather than received a soul.

Secondly, in answer to this question, here is something that I feel makes an impact on this doctrine:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (h2416) soul (h5315).

The word living is: ḥay.
חַי chay, khah'-ee; from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

The word soul is:nep̄eš.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

See where else they are found:

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living h2416 creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living h2416 creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


Both man and the "living creatures" were created as "souls," which is the body and the life (which is the spirit).

Now for a New Testament comparison to look for consistency:


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living g2198 soul g5590; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living g2198 soul g5590 died in the sea.

Here, living is zaō. ζάω záō, dzah'-o; a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):—life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

"Soul" is psychē. ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Both men and animals are called souls. Neither are said to possess souls. Biblical usage of soul primarily speaks of "the person" or persons. You will probably understand most passages better with that understanding. For example, one of the most abused passages used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) is the following:


Ezekiel 18:4; 20-23 KJV

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls h5315 are mine; as the soul h5315 of the father, so also the soul h5315 of the son is mine: the soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die.

20 The soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


If "soul" is an immaterial of man's make-up, then here we see a proof text for eternal damnation of the "immaterial man." However, the context is plainly temporal. In view is keeping the Law.

If we conclude this has reference to eternal judgment, rather than the penalty the Law did in fact carry—physical death—then we must equally conclude that men can receive eternal life through keeping the Law.

See the problem there?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

A few more examples of "soul" being used in a way that an immaterial aspect is denied:

Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls g5590.

Acts 27:37
And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls g5590.


As to probably the greatest proof texts that the soul is an immaterial aspect of man's make-up ...

Hebrews 4:12 KJV

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

... we do see a division. However, understanding man's make-up is body and spirit, and the context of the above verse (the effect of the Word of God), it is easily reconciled, in that in view here is death. "The soul," being a reference to "the person," refers to the dividing of the spirit from the body. "Soul" can be used to refer to a man or woman whether they are in the body or not:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls G5590 of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

John saw the persons who were martyrs.

This is tougher ...

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

... but we don't throw out an entire Bible filled with evidence of what soul means over one verse. What I believe Paul is doing here is praying for the preservation of spirit (which would refers to one's spiritual well-being), soul (which refers to one's daily life as a whole), and body (which would refer to one's physical health.

Finally, on the matter of man's make-up being spirit and body, and one being a soul, rather than having one, let's look at the understanding of the disciples of Christ, and Christ's confirmation of their view:

Luke 24:36-39 KJV

Luk 24:36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Luk 24:37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

Luk 24:38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


The disciples think they are seeing "a ghost" and they are frightened. The reason they are frightened is that their understanding of a man is that he is body and spirit. They think the Lord is dead, thus they must be seeing His spirit. The Lord confirms that view by saying, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bone."

Because the spirit, if it is just a spirit, has departed from its body.

Again, a person that has departed from the body can still be properly called "a soul," because the spirit is still "the person."


This is taken from the thread Trichotomy or Dichotomy?

I don't know if "other denominations can look at the Baptist Bible Study section while logged in, but you can look at it when you aren't logged in, and can copy and paste it here to comment on. That should liven things up a little around here.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

2. When your soul, immediately after death, goes to heaven, most would believe it is conscious and doing something, as Berkhof said. What would you (your soul) be doing? I’ve seen where some say you would Fellowship. Fellowship with God would mean praising God, listening to the Word, singing and offering the prayers of the saints (Apoc 5:8, Apoc 8:3-5, Apoc 6:9-11).

So I view it as the spirit of the man going to Heaven, his body remains here until the Rapture.

Again, it is proper to call a spirit in Heaven a "soul" because it is still the person, and that is the primary meaning of the word soul: God fashioned man's body, breathed the breath/spirit of life into him, and man became a living person.

As far as what men will do when their spirit is in Heaven, I agree, they will be fellowshipping, (which I distinguish from (praising, hearing the Word and the WORD, singing
and ...

... that's where we disagree, lol. While I would not discount the prayers of those in Heaven for those on earth, I do not take the view that people in Heaven are sitting around watching our lives. Perhaps glimpses at times allowed by God, but that they are continually observing us isn't something I think likely. I can't be dogmatic, but I don't think those who take the view they are can be either.

3. On earth, while still in the body, as a Christian you are offering prayers for the saints (Eph 6:18) and you are Fellowshipping with God. The apostles Fellowshipped with Christ on earth.

The saints I offer up prayer for are those who are still alive. I do not believe we can alter the fate of those who pass. Our judgment will be based on the response to the revelation we have received from God, and it is on that which we will all be judged.

Remember, "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment."

While I do not view all men as having to die due to Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture, I do believe we are all judged at the time of death. Meaing our eternal destinies have all been decided. Even if I allow (and I do) that hades still has a just side and a side of (everlasting) torment, those in the just side are there because of their response to God's revelation to them. They are justified as the Old Testament Saints were, in a temporal context, unlike those who are regenerated and brought into Eternal Union with God through Eternal Redemption received in their lifetime.

So while I allow for their judgment to be final at the Great White Throne, their eternal destinies, as it is all men, are determined while they are alive.

I will not mock those who think they can pray for the dead (and I know the Scripture this is based on, and disagree with the conclusions drawn to form that basis), and to be honest I hope I am wrong. So if you think you can pray for them, by all means, have at it, I can't see where it's going to hurt anything. I will say I caution against praying to them, though. We should only pray to God. When Christ taught His disciples to pray (and that is what we are), He taught them to pray to Our Father which is in Heaven. We are to pray in His Name.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

All those Christian’s who died before the Rapture and those who will be raptured (I’m not arguing the Rapture right now), are in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:9).

We can't leave out an important part from any discussion, and the Rapture (as we have seen) is relevant.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb has a fixed point in time, and that time has not arrived yet:


Revelation 19:7-9 King James Version

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


This will begin at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns. I cannot go beyond what Scripture expressly states.

I can speculate, though, that there is a dual aspect to the Supper. and that the Restoration of Israel and Israel herself could be included in that, meaning there is the Heavenly fulfillment and the earthly.

They are Fellowshipping and Worshipping God. So it is not only those that are raptured that are at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb but all the Christian’s who have died.

I agree with that, because all who are in Christ from Pentecost will be raised and changed at the same time. This cannot be said of the resurrection of believers at the end of the Tribulation, nor of the resurrection of the dead at the Great White Throne.

This shows that the Marriage Supper is timeless.

Not at all. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb could not take place before there was a Lamb. That Christ is the "Lamb slain from the foundations of the world" does not nullify that there is a specific point in time in which God created the Body of our Lord in the Womb of Mary. There is a specific point in time when Christ died in our stead. And there is a specific point in time when Christ will return.

Quite impossible for the Marriage Supper to be "timeless."


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


What Paul teaches here is what didn't take place prior to the Incarnation: The fullness of time hadn't come. He hadn't sent forth the Son. The Eternal Son had not been made of a woman. Mary had not conceived of the Holy Ghost. Mary had not delivered the Christ-Child. The Eternal Son had not been made under Law (He established it but was not under it). Men had not been redeemed from the Law. Men had not received the adoption of sons.

Men had not received the Spirit of Christ.

We have to maintain the timeline we are given in Scripture, or things go astray.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The other thing is that you are doing the same thing on earth in a dimmer way. You are Fellowshipping with God on Sundays through listening to the Word, through prayer and through singing hymns and you are asking each other to pray for you (prayers for the saints).

It's not nearly the same thing, lol. That is why we groan, brother.

At least, that is why I groan, lol. I hate this world and while I do not plead with God to end my life so I can go to Heaven, neither do I desire to be in this world any longer than I have to.

Also, The Marriage Supper on earth could be seen through the symbolic partaking of the wine and grape juice at service occasionally or, in other cases, more often.

You nullify the argument using the word "symbolic," because that is precisely what the Lord taught Communion to be:


Luke 22:17-20 King James Version

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


It is a memorial that has no salvific significance beyond the memorial.

To make that point I would ask you to consider Passover: When they first sacrificed and spread the blood it was to prevent them from dying. It then became a memorial to be celebrated every year:


Exodus 12:13-14 King James Version

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.


No different than saying "Keep this feast in remembrance of My deliverance."

Now consider when they afterward kept this memorial: were they saved from death that would smite the land and everyone who did not partake/obey to do it?

Not at all. It was a memorial. So too, Communion is a memorial by which we obey Christ and remember His death as oft as we take of it. We are not again delivered, we do not receive salvation again, and we do not receive "more" salvation."


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The bottom line: All the Christians are worshipping God all the time and NOT just at the Rapture and NOT just in heaven.

I just don't see the Scripture provided either supporting that or nullifying what we do see that would suggest otherwise.

Catholic Doctrine of the Communion of Saints

The Christians in heaven and on earth explained above points to the Catholic Doctrine of the Communion of Saints which describes the church, as we say, as the Church Militant (Christians on earth) and the Church Triumphant (Christians in heaven). We say they are “connected” because even death cannot separate us (Rom 8:38).

But our connection is not between ourselves, LaGrange, it is to Christ.

We are made one in Him. While I agree we are one and one body, we are one because we are in Christ, not each other.

I hope that makes sense, lol.

It is ONE BODY (1 Cor 12:25-27). That’s what the “Communion” means in the Communion of Saints.

It is One Spirit:


Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


One Spirit, one baptism, the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

He is in us all, that doesn't equate to we are all in each other. Our "communion" is through our Union with Christ:


John 14:15-23 King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Here we see that we are indwelt by God and placed in God. It is the eternal (contrasted with the Consolation of Israel departing through death) union with God the Father (v.23), the Son (vv.18 and 21, and implied in v.21), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17).

Note that we will be in Him, and He will be in us. We don't see we will be in each other.

So I would not agree that we are "connected" in a manner that has an eternal union between believers in the sense that we have with God. And it is through the Eternal Union, by which we have communion/relationship with Him.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

It is in the Nicene Creed (325ad).

I give no attention to the doctrines found among men. I will agree with what I view as truth and disagree with where I see they go wrong.

And I trust God to correct me if I am wrong about something as He leads and guides me unto all truth. We might see through a glass darkly, but Scripture was given for the express purpose of understanding what He has revealed to us. Not everything that can be known is revealed, but what has been we have a mandate to learn and to get it right, lol.

They are all doing the same thing and therefore, through Christ, we can effect one another through our prayers.

I agree, in a temporal context. I do not view our prayers to effect change in the eternal destinies of those who have already died, though.

One's fate is sealed when they die here, and they will be judged according to their response to the revelation God did give them, and this I think will be according to their understanding.

God holds men accountable for what they understand, not what they don't. The Spirit of God has been enlightening men from Day Six so no man will stand before God and say "But ... you never told me!"

The church also includes the Church Suffering (Christians in purgatory).

I reject the notion of purgatory altogether, sorry.

I do believe in hades, and that it is divided still, but their fates were sealed at death.


Hebrews 3:7-12 King James Version

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


Today is the day of salvation:


2 Corinthians 6 King James Version

1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)


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[Darrell C]

Also they are ALL (the whole church) partaking, perhaps at different levels and in different ways, in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which we see as the Eucharistic Sacrifice, that is, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We see it as being offered on earth, under the earth (purgatory)(Phil 2:10) and in heaven.

I just can't agree, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb has a specific point in time at which time it will commence.

The Bride had to be created, made clean, and then presented.

Side note to keep in mind:

Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Eucharist)

Altar is near the throne (Apoc 8:3). Most of the Book of the Apocalypse portrays events prior to the eternal state so, when it mentions the “altar” and the “Lamb”, it points to events that are happening “at the same time” as events on earth. This means the “Prayers to the saints” are asking for an answer for things to do with what is happening on earth. This all shows the Church in heaven, on earth and in purgatory (upper part of hell) are one.

You might reread Revelation, there are definitely things going on in Heaven that aren't taking place on earth. The Angels that unleash the judgments are not on earth, for example.

Okay, you asked for it, lol, and there it is. I did enjoy addressing the points, though. Not sure if I am going to be able to get to 19, but I will see.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi All,

Rapture and Marriage Supper of the Lamb

This is kind of a meditation or thinking out loud because it is incomplete and my thoughts are not totally organized. I’m trying to show how you can see Christ in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb while on earth as well as in heaven and a couple of other things.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Breaking of Bread) took place on Sundays, the first day of the week (John 20:19).

Again, we see in Scripture that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place at Christ's return. It is not an ongoing event.

Just as the Supper of the Great God is not Ezekiel 39:4-5; Revelation 19:17-18). Death is continual and carrion fowl have feasted on the flesh of men throughout history, but we don't see an ongoing event because of the similarity.

All Christ’s appearances after His resurrection (John 20:1) occurred on Sundays, the “Day of the Lord” (John 20:19).

I would suggest that Acts 1:4-8 would be an event that did not take place on Sunday. We would have to get one of the scholars to look at the calendar, though, lol. This took place not many days hence, the day being Pentecost. That would be an interesting thing to track down, though. I'm sure someone more familiar than I could determine whether this celebration was on a Tuesday or not.

Christ revealed His glorified body to them. This means The “Day of the Lord” could be one day or many.

There is a difference from the/a Day of the Lord and the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is what we call Sunday, but the Day of the Lord is a visitation from God and usually for the purpose of judgment.

It can be one day like a Sunday or it could be a thousand years (2 Pet 3:8).

But every Sunday isn't a thousand years, lol. Peter is simply saying time is immaterial to God in regards to the temporal.

Believe me, a thousand years is a thousand years, here. And while one day might seem like a thousand years to us sometimes, lol, it is still a 24-hour-period, and not a thousand years.


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[Darrell C]

Luke speaks of the “Last days” (Acts 2:17) but then the “Last day” (Acts 2:20).

Acts 2:17-20 King James Version

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:


Note "before" the great and notable Day of the Lord."

Prophecy can have multiple fulfillment. We see a partial fulfillment in Peter's (and our) day but there is a day yet to come that will be the Day of the Lord.

Again, that day will be a day of visitation and judgment. The sun has not yet to to darkness, not the moon into blood.

I do understand the connection you are trying to make, though. I understand your point, that is.

So it seems that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (same as the Breaking of Bread - 1 Cor 10:16) can be observed on a day in time, like a Sunday, or also like a thousand years, or timeless, like in heaven.

It may be a Sunday when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb commences, but it will be on a particular Sunday in the future.

It can be going on in both places at the same time.

That I will agree with: I think when that Supper commences it will have application to Heaven (where the Body of Christ will be) and to earth, where Restored Israel will be (note: Restored Israel will be in the Body of Christ when they are born again but that doesn't nullify her distinction as Israel, as noted in Revelation and pointed out in earlier posts).

Jesus can reveal Himself to His faithful in His glorified body here on earth through the “Breaking of Bread” (Luke 24:13) or obviously through the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in heaven (Apoc 19:9).

It's symbolic only, here on earth. In Heaven we will see Him in His glorified body. Two different issues.

For those in heaven and on earth to see Christ’s glorified body at the same time shows the unity and that we are “one body” (1 Cor 10:17).

1 Corinthians 10:16-17 King James Version

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


I don't see anything about those in Heaven and on earth "seeing Christ's glorified body at the same time" here.

Again, both Christ and Paul taught that Communion is a memorial, not a literal event. Just as Passover was a literal event the first time, and a memorial afterward.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

We don’t have to be Raptured and be in our glorified bodies to see the Lord.

Agreed. We will see Him when we die physically, if we do not remain until the Rapture.

Yes, to see Him face to face, this is true,

Agreed.

but you can see Him literally in an invisible manner, that is, like a glorified body while here on earth through the Breaking of Bread (Marriage Supper or Eucharist).

You can't see anything literally in an invisible manner, lol, because you aren't seeing something that is invisible.

Not trying to be a wiseguy, LaGrange, just pointing this out.

When we celebrate Communion we do not literally see the body of Christ.

Secondly, the Bread and Wine are symbolic of His broken and dead body, not his glorified body.


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[Darrell C]

The disciples on the road to Emmaus “recognized’ Jesus in the “breaking of the bread” (Luke 24:31).

This is true of the two on the road to Emmaus, but we aren't told this is true of the eleven:


Luke 24:33-37 King James Version

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.


I would first mention that the phrase "breaking of bread" isn't limiting the meal to bread. It is a term to mean "I've ended my fast, that period prior to eating when I did not eat."

Secondly, we do see Christ does eat among the eleven:


Luke 24:38-43 King James Version

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.


He didn't eat bread, but fish. If we are going to give the eating in the passage we should be able to do so for both occurrences. I think that is going outside of the scope of what is meant to be taken from this passage, and that is that Christ was not dead, but had risen again and that He had a physical body (as a spirit, one who is separated from their physical body wouldn't).


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