Featured Rapture Question

Hi DarrellC,
This might take a little bit of time to answer but I will answer. I understand you taking time away. I will do the exact same thing. It’s fun to me to have discussions but it’s also fun to just do research. I like the challenges as well. You’re right, this is how you hone your theology and grow in your understanding. Thanks so much Darrell for taking the time to answer. May God bless!

 

don’t know what I’m doing with this cut and paste!

 

Thanks Darrell. I am struggling with this. I did what you said and it posting the quotes worked but then realized I made a couple of breaks that I didn’t want in there but I had already posted the quotes. I’ll start over. Man, I am so bad at electronics! Lol

 

Answering post #42

Hi All,

I hope all of you will read these posts. This might take a little bit of time to answer but I will answer. I’m going to answer all of them probably at a rate of one or two posts a day. I won’t answer any responses to these responses until I’m finished and only if I think it is needed. I think it’s important to answer these with decent answers so I’m taking my time. I enjoy it so much anyway. If the thread ends before I finish, I will start a new thread to continue posting my responses to Darrell.

Darrell,
I understand you taking time away. I will do the exact same thing. It’s fun to me to have discussions but it’s also fun to just do research. I like the challenges as well. You’re right, this is how you hone your theology and grow in your understanding. Thanks so much Darrell for taking the time to answer. I think this is what discussions are all about. May God bless!

My Comment: Part of the problem with this verse is the translation. My translation says:
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. (DRV)
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; kWe shall not all lsleep, but mwe shall all be changed, (KJV)

All the commentaries say the best translation is the KJV on this one. Some of the early church fathers and commentators take this to mean, like you say, that some won’t die and others say all will die but the just, somehow, in the process of the resurrection of the dead, will change into their glorified bodies. I’m not sure about the timing of the Just (that are alive on the last day) getting their glorified bodies because the Judgement has to come first (do you get your glorified body as your going up or maybe after you come to the Great White Throne?) I believe God judges all of us at the end of our lives and not before you are born (Reformed) or during your life (OSAS).

The DRV I would interpret something like this: “…all will rise but not all will go to heaven and receive their glorified bodies”.
The KJV I would interpret something like this: “all will not be dead on the last day but the just (we) will go to heaven and receive their glorified bodies”.

1 Cor 15:54 …Death is swallowed up in victory.

Darrell, you could take “Death” here to mean death actually occurred. What “victory” would it be unless you actually died? It seems that you see this word “Death” here as more symbolic and that the people didn’t actually die. Nothing wrong with that I guess. You can easily see “Death” here as literal if you use the DRV translation. The DRV says “we shall all… rise”. “All rise” can be interpreted as “All were dead”. “Rising” implies you “died”. The DRV is a legitimate translation. Jerome interpreted it that way.

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

I used the KJV here because it uses the word “grave”. “Grave” sounds more like a literal and physical death rather than symbolic. Darrell, I’m not saying absolutely that you look at the word “death” in v54 symbolically but it does seem like you’re leaning that way.

The bottom line: 1 Cor 15:51-54 is clearly about the the resurrection of the body on the last day. Yes, as I’ve said, you can say that those alive on the last day didn’t die but what you cannot say is that this exception happened 1,007 years before the last day. This exception, therefore, cannot be applied to the rapture.

My Comment: I believe this is a literal and physical death even though it is mysterious. Mysterious doesn’t necessarily have to mean symbolic or spiritual.

My Comment: Luke 24:39 is proof that we will receive a glorified body. The parallel verse is John 20:19-28.

My Comment: The problem I see with Enoch is that he didn’t die. Notice: This was way before the Last Day and before Christ’s resurrection. This causes a big problem: If Enoch went to Sheol (hell), as you say, and he was a just man, when Christ opened the gates of heaven, why didn’t he leave the bosom of Abraham (Sheol) and go to heaven? At that point there was no more Bosom of Abraham. Enoch didn’t go to the Third Heaven like everyone else in the Bosom of Abraham after Christ’s Ascension. Another question: If Enoch went to Sheol why does it say he went to heaven? (Heb 11:5). In the Septuigant, It says he went to “Paradise”(Sirach 44:16). Aquinas interprets “Paradise” as not exactly the same place as heaven as we think of heaven.

 

Hi All,

I want to correct one thing and add to one thing in post #68:

1. 1 Cor 15:51

When talking about 1 Cor 15:51 I had said:

“I’m not sure about the timing of the Just (that are alive on the last day) getting their glorified bodies because the Judgement has to come first (do you get your glorified body as your going up or maybe after you come to the Great White Throne?) I believe God judges all of us at the end of our lives and not before you are born (Reformed) or during your life (OSAS).”

Correction: At the resurrection of the dead, on the last day, everything happens at once but if you looked at the resurrection event in order, it would probably look something like this:
1. You die first (particular judgement)
2. Receive your glorified body (as you are going up)
3. Come to the Great White Throne Judgement (we call the General Judgement)

I’ll have to explain maybe later the purpose of the General Judgement. It would take too many words to explain it right. Mainly it’s to show the Glory of God.

2. John 5:29

I want to add this information:

John 5:29 looks like two resurrections.

A parallel verse to this verse is Acts 24:15:

Acts 24:15 (D-R): Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a “resurrection of the just and unjust”.

Here you see that ONE resurrection is mentioned but both groups are included.

Other parallel verses are Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46

 

Hi All,

One more correction. I promise! Lol

I list the three steps:

1. You die first (particular judgement)
2. Receive your glorified body (as you are going up)
3. Come to the Great White Throne Judgement (we call the General Judgement)

Correction: Number 2 should also include the resurrection of the wicked in their natural bodies.

 

My Comment: It’s good you think that. I don’t think it says anywhere in scripture that the resurrection (John 5:29) happens in two different places, one being the rapture. We call it the “resurrection of the body” (Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:52) because ALL receive their bodies but not all receive glorified bodies (sounds like 1 Cor 15:51 which happens to be the previous verse - Aquinas quotes Job 14:12 and other verses). Scofield interpreted John 5:29 as two distinct resurrections in error. If you look at John 5:29 as the same resurrection, it has to come at the end of time after the Great White Throne Judgement (Apoc 20:11-12) or you wouldn’t have ALL the elect (the just) but only part. John 5:29, referring to one resurrection, is how the early church fathers saw it used in the Apostle’s Creed and the Nicene Creed: “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead” (1 Pet 4:5 - Great White Throne Judgement) and “the resurrection of the body” (1 Cor 15:52 - ALL men). This captures ALL the just before and after the Tribulation and anyone saved during the thousand year reign. This means no Rapture. There is no logical reason to raise some bodily into a glorified body before the end of the world. The “First Resurrection” (Apoc 20:5) refers to the resurrection of the soul and not the body. We call this the “Particular Judgement” (Heb 9:27). All those who have died have already been judged(ParticularmJudgement) but not those alive on the last day. The Particular Judgement and Great White Throne Judgement will take care of that. There are the Two Books of Life used at this Great White Throne Judgement.

My Comment: Moses has already been resurrected. Since he died (Deut 34:5), he was resurrected at Christ’s Ascension when He opened the gates of heaven (Heb 9:11-12).

My Comment: The problem with George’s interpretation here is that verse 4 says the “Law of Moses” and not Moses himself. I think you can interpret these verses in a preterist way (I know, I don’t like the preterist way most of the time either) or in the futurist way. They can be interpreted in a preterist way because they point to Luke 17:10-13. If you do, then John the Baptist is the Elijah they are referring to and this means the interpretation of these verses is that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) and that He gave us a New Covenant when He came at His “First Coming”. If you apply this to the Second Coming then Mal 4:4 would mean Malachi is saying that Moses was the first mediator of the law (v4) and Elijah, representing the prophets, is the last mediator of the law (v5-6). Elijah is the “last mediator” because he brings the gospel to Jews (Apoc 11:3 - Navarre Commentary).

My Comment: I think you are saying that you think God could raise Moses like He did Lazarus to be one of the two witnesses. I’m assuming you mean the beggar Lazarus (Luke 16:20-31) because there are two Lazarus’, the other being the brother of Martha and Mary (John 11). In my OP my argument was that ALL must die, therefore, ALL cannot be raptured without dying. The problem is that the beggar, Lazarus, died (Luke 16:22) and Moses died and would die again because the two witnesses die. This means there is NO Bodily Rapture that avoids death and especially not 1,007 years before the end of time.

My Comment: I will watch the video. Sounds interesting! I agree that God can do whatever He wants regarding the Two Witnesses but the problem remains regarding a bodily Rapture. ALL must die (1 Cor 15:20-22 - which would include those before, during and after the theoretical Rapture) which is in the same chapter as the resurrection of the body (1 Cor 15:50-55) at the end of time and not the Rapture.

 

Hi DarrellC,

I couldn’t get this part to quote for some reason. This is also in your post#43:


Darrell: There are those who never received the Gospel thus were not able to receive the Resurrection unto life during their lifetimes as we have, but were obedient to the revelation they received during their lifetimes, thus were justified like as many of the Old Testament Saints were. Like the Old Testament Saints, I see a possibility that there is still a Just Side of Hades for people like that. The Gospel was not revealed to any man or woman in the Old Testament. Yes, the Gospel was given to them (i.e., Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 53), but understanding was withheld. They died awaiting Eternal Redemption through the Cross and the Resurrection. So too, it may be that even today God remains constant in grace and mercy, and that as He has always done, He will judge men according to their response to the revelation they did receive (the testimony of Creation, the internal witness (Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:13-16). The same would be true, I believe, for those who die today who do not get the opportunity to grow up and receive the revelation of the Comforter. Babies that die and/or murdered in the womb; very young children; those mentally incapacitated.
I am not dogmatic on that, but I see a consistency throughout Scripture that God has always judged men according to the response to the revelation He gives them in their day. That begins with Adam, who was disobedient to the revealed will of God in regards to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

My Comment: This is charitable. This is what we would call the Baptism of Desire. It can be applied to the proverbial native in the woods, a Muslim (not because he’s Muslim), or anyone who has not had the gospel preached to them. We believe God, through mysterious ways, can reach and does reach all souls. We believe God makes it “possible” for all men to go to heaven (Acts 17:26-27, 1 Tim 2:4) but, of course, not everyone does go to heaven.

 

No. I’m not saying that at all. Maybe I misunderstood what Darrell was saying. All men must respond to the gospel but that is not always possible by the normal means. If men cannot be reached with the gospel (Ex: the native in the woods), I believe God makes it possible by extraordinary means. God may actually appear to them or use some other extraordinary way to reach them. That’s all I’m saying. If they make it to heaven it is ONLY through Jesus Christ. Taking a second look, I think Darrell’s explanation may be a dispensationalist view which I don’t agree with. Maybe Darrell can say a little more about this later. Hope that helps.

 

My Comment: I disagree. Apoc 11:10 says, “because these ‘two prophets’…” Mal 4:5 says Elijah is one that will be sent at this time and Enoch the other (Jude 14-15). It has to be two of the Old Testament prophets. I personally take a hard line that the two witnesses didn’t die like Aquinas said because it maintains the integrity of the Doctrine of Original Sin (STh., II-II q.164 a.1)

My Comment: I think I answered this in my last post

 

No problem. Thanks Canadyjd!

 

My Comment: I agree that sleeping equals death.
As I said before, 1 Cor 15:51 means, [when it says “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (KJV)], that “all will not be dead on the last day but the just (we) will go to heaven and receive their glorified bodies”. Something like that. This is at the end of time. If you take it as at the end of time you can see it. This is a difficult verse but if you look at the DRV I think it helps. The DRV translation of this verse comes from a Greek variant used by St. Jerome.

My Comment: I already answered this.

My Comment: I’ve already answered this. You could interpret these verses as some were taken up alive and make an exception if you interpret them coming at the end of time. Why? Because the world is coming to an end and those living have to go somewhere. I take a hard line against an exception because, like Aquinas, it’s to protect the integrity of the Doctrine of Original Sin that says, as a punishment, all must die. There could always be exceptions but I don’t think a large number of people being raptured could be one of them. There is one exception but that exception would have to include avoiding original sin. That’s a hint and I definitely don’t want to get into that. Lol

2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ: above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:4 That he was caught up into paradise and heard secret words which it is not granted to man to utter.

My Comment: I agree with you that Paul, in 2 Cor 12:2, went to heaven “in the spirit”. Regarding 2 Cor 12:1-4, you were saying originally that Paul “might” have been taken bodily into heaven and you used that as kind of a proof that Christians who have been saved could be raptured based on Paul’s experience. I thought this was a good verse to look at. 2 Cor 12:4 says, “How that he was caught up into “paradise”, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” (KJV) Notice the word “Paradise”. The KJV references Luke 23:43 which says “And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: “This day” thou shalt be with me in “paradise.” Jesus said this to the good thief while on the cross. Notice: It says “This day” you shall be with me in “Paradise”. Paradise could not be heaven because Christ, after His death on the cross, had to descend into hell for three days and THEN rise again and appear to 500 souls on earth for forty days before ascending and opening the gates of heaven. This totals 43 days. Paradise was NOT heaven as we think of it. Paradise for the good thief was the bosom of Abraham or what we sometimes call the Limbo of the Fathers. Paradise for Enoch and Elijah was the lowest level of heaven because they had not died. “Paradise” apparently is a large abode taking in a lot of places including the Bosom of Abraham and other areas. It basically is a “happy place”. Aquinas said Paul, in these verses, did go to the Third Heaven (2 Cor 12:2) which is heaven as we think of it but, even then, he did not “see” the beatific vision but only “heard unspeakable words”. 1 Tim 6:14-16 says, “…Christ…whom no man hath seen, nor can see:…”. In the body you cannot see God until the end when we receive our glorified bodies. If he had died he would have stayed there.

To answer your original argument, Paul thought it was a possibility that he could have gone bodily into heaven as we know it and he may have been in the realm of heaven as we think of it. Aquinas thinks that when Paul said he may have gone bodily to the third heaven, that he didn’t actually or physically go to heaven (Aquinas, Commentary on 2 Corinthians, #457). Paul went to heaven in what he would call an intellectual rapture (STh., II-II q.175 a.3 ad 4). It’s like an intellectual vision. He goes on to explain why he thought he may have been in his body. It gets complicated. Lol

My Comment: Enoch and Elijah did not go into God’s Presence (beatific vision). There are three heavens: air, stars and heaven of heavens (empyrean). Enoch didn’t die (Heb 11:5) and he went to “paradise” (Sirach 44:16). No one knows for sure where paradise is but it clearly says he didn’t die. Enoch will die later and then go into God’s Presence. Elijah the same.

My Comment: Matt 8:11 is referring to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. From the moment you die, if you go to heaven, you will be at that Marriage Supper. Your soul is there but not your body until the general judgement at the end. I talk about that in two of my posts. No delay in this happening until after the rapture. That’s my understanding.


DarrellC: Paul did die physically, though he wanted to be raptured (2 Corinthians 5:1-8).



My Comment: I haven’t studied the rapture enough to separate out all the different kinds of raptures. They all seem to be what you said “an out-of-body experience”. The word comes from the Latin word “raptus”. In the Clementine Latin Vulgate it is used 5 times: Wis 4:11, Hos 13:3, Amos 4:11, 2 Cor 12:4, Apoc 12:5. Other words are used as well. An example is the word “Ecstasy”. Ecstasy is a kind of rapture according to Aquinas. An example is Peter’s vision in Acts 10:10 and Acts 11:5. It also describes this when it says that they were “taken up” (DRV) or “drawn up” (KJV) (Acts 11:10). In Acts 10:10 and Acts 11:5, “Ecstasy”, In Latin, is “excessu” which means departure, death, ecstasy and trance.

 

Can anyone tell me how to quote the previous quotes with the vertical line next to them? Mine won’t let me quote that part. It helps with the continuity of the discussion as you know. Thanks!