Rapture - The Poll

[RLBosley]

If you go back and see how God has dealt with Israel throughout history you will see the current time is really no different. Romans 11 is pretty clear God is not through with Israel. John 3:36 is clear God's wrath is done with us. The only way this can be true is via the pre-trib position with an incorrect understanding of tribulation.

FIFY :tongue3:

I'm just making a joke no offense intended. But honestly there is no proof anywhere that supports the idea that God must remove the church before He begins to pour out His judgment on the Earth. Tribulation is never used as another word for God's wrath. It is always used to describe the persecution that believers suffer in the world.

Christ has taken the wrath for us, yes that is a wonderful glorious truth! But that doesn't mean that He will save us from persecution, we are to expect it in fact. The Great Tribulation is primarily a period of intense persecution against the church.

And yes God is not finished with Israel... but the ONLY way they can be saved is through faith in Christ... just like everyone else.

 

[Herald]

I am an amillennialist.

 

[OldRegular]

I am an amillennialist.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[MB]

Then how do you think that the rapture is before the tribulation?

Read what I wrote to Old regular

So somehow this one super bad guy will know everything an everyone who is born again will immediately be hunted down? How is that even remotely possible?

I didn't say that. Christians will be known for there lack of the Number of the Beast on there right hand or fore head.

The list of the tribes in Joshua (those who received land) is: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh.

Revelation instead lists:Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin.

So the list in Revelation has Joseph instead of Ephraim instead of Dan, Levi is included. No explanation is given as to why. Also, Judah is listed first which is totally inconsistent with the Old Testament. All this together seems to indicate that this is a spiritual people, not physical national Jews. This is not 144,000 Jews - this is the church.

If you aren't Jewish you aren't related and you are not one of the children of Israel.

There is no reason to think that belief in the post-tribulation appearing of Christ and the gathering of the elect would somehow cause one to lose their joy. I used to be a firm pre-trib dispensationalist but I have much more joy now that i have a better understanding of scripture since I left that view.

Acts 5:41
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

I have no idea of what you are trying to say with the verse above. It has nothing to do with the subject.

Yes we are to be ready and to look for His coming, but that coming is never said to be a secret coming to rescue the believers, instead it is always to be ready and look for His appearing .

Notice you are the one fixated on His return being a secret. I do not believe that even for a second. Every eye shall see Him how can that possibly be a secret?
MB

 

[MB]

Where did I say God was a failure?

I'd suggest you read what I wrote again. I did not say you said that at all. I said; "Sounds as if you are really saying God is a failure?". You said men have failed but if that is true then God has failed because it is God who gives the increase. Men can't do anything in evangelizing with out God.

Why do dispensationalists teach that God must take the Church out before Israel can be saved? An Israelite or Jew can only be saved the same way as anyone else, through faith in Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit.

The tribulation cannot happen until He who restrains has been removed. It is the Holy Spirit that restrains. Because of this the church must also be taken out of the way. God has promised us the Holy Spirit will never leave us. He never breaks a promise.

MB

 

[thomas15]

If you go back and see how God has dealt with Israel throughout history you will see the current time is really no different. Romans 11 is pretty clear God is not through with Israel. John 3:36 is clear God's wrath is done with us. The only way this can be true is via the pre-trib position.

webdog you are exactly correct. Unless of course God is not going to judge the wicked as suggested in the book of Revelation and supported in other Scriptures and even mentioned by our Savior himself in the book of Matthew.

I know that there have been and continue to be smart and spiritual men who claim a post mill second coming and rapture all in one but that seems impossible in light of the clear teaching of the prophetic Scripture. God put those Scriptures in the Bible for a reason.

 

[MB]

Not really! Revelation 1 is simply an introduction.

Not true at all. Where did you get this from. There isn't one book in the whole Bible that has an introduction. Grasping at straws aren't you?

According to dispensationalists we have to get through the Church age [Chapters 2 & 3] 2000 years and counting, and then the Rapture, before the tribulation starts in Chapter 6.

It so nice of you to tell me You know more than I do about what I believe.
Revelations 1:12 is the beginning of exposure of the churches. and all but one receive warnings about there practices
Nothing in the Bible says the tribulation and the rapture happen at the same time or that it has to. The rapture could happen years before the tribulation starts.

So the Rapture occurs when? Before the Church age?

The rapture happens when God is ready for it to happen

How so?

Why not read it and find out for your self. Oh that's right you think the bible is an allegory.

I agree! Sadly Dispensationalism bases their eschatology on an extremely difficult verse in Daniel and then force other Scripture regarding the Second Coming to fit their bad doctrine. They keep digging their hole deeper instead of smarting up like some [Progressive Dispensationalists] and climbing out!

When it comes to God wanting us to understand Scripture why is it that Dispensationalists completely ignore the words of Jesus Christ in John 5:28, 29:

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage clearly teaches a General Resurrection and General Judgment yet dispensationalists either ignore it completely or interpret it falsely!

Actually what you just said is false. In fact everything you have said is false. Your doctrine is false and your ideas are false


If this is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel and is to be interpreted literally where is Dan, where is Ephraim?

All believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit. This passage is speaking of all the Saints on earth at any given time.

It's better than being a warmed over reformed Catholic.
MB

 

[RLBosley]

Read what I wrote to Old regular

Can you point me to the correct post, you've said alot to each other.

I didn't say that. Christians will be known for there lack of the Number of the Beast on there right hand or fore head.

So there will be believers or there won't be during the tribulation? You seem to keep changing your position.

If you aren't Jewish you aren't related and you are not one of the children of Israel.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Galatians 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

By faith we are the children of Abraham. By unbelief the natural Jews have been broken off. The Church is the Israel of God.

I have no idea of what you are trying to say with the verse above. It has nothing to do with the subject.

This was directed at Gregory Perry Sr.

Notice you are the one fixated on His return being a secret. I do not believe that even for a second. Every eye shall see Him how can that possibly be a secret?

Again directed at Gregory Perry Sr. And I agree that every eye shall see Him, but the second coming will be one event, One appearing, return and rapture/resurrection of the righteous dead.

 

[MB]

Can you point me to the correct post, you've said alot to each other.



So there will be believers or there won't be during the tribulation? You seem to keep changing your position.

No I haven't. The only believers during the tribulation are natural Jews and the two witnesses. I do not accept replacement theology. Gentiles and any other Christians at the time of the rapture will be taken with Christ. The rapture is not a coming of Christ because His feet never touch the ground we meet Him in the air.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Galatians 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

By faith we are the children of Abraham. By unbelief the natural Jews have been broken off. The Church is the Israel of God.

You haven't even one scripture that proves the underlined definitively. Scripture just does not support such nonsense.

This was directed at Gregory Perry Sr.



Again directed at Gregory Perry Sr. And I agree that every eye shall see Him, but the second coming will be one event, One appearing, return and rapture/resurrection of the righteous dead.

Then how do you explain the Lords return with all His saints;

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

You're not saying Paul is a liar are you? How can Christ return with all His saints if we aren't with Him when He returns.

Maybe you should pay attention to Gregory Perry
MB

 

[webdog]

FIFY :tongue3:

I'm just making a joke no offense intended. But honestly there is no proof anywhere that supports the idea that God must remove the church before He begins to pour out His judgment on the Earth. Tribulation is never used as another word for God's wrath. It is always used to describe the persecution that believers suffer in the world.

Christ has taken the wrath for us, yes that is a wonderful glorious truth! But that doesn't mean that He will save us from persecution, we are to expect it in fact. The Great Tribulation is primarily a period of intense persecution against the church.

And yes God is not finished with Israel... but the ONLY way they can be saved is through faith in Christ... just like everyone else.

Matthew 24:21 states the great tribulation will be such that nothing like it has occurred since the beginning of time. This includes the flood, does it not? Did the righteous go through that?

I'll also disagree that the great tribulation is for believers. That is not the same thing as persecution. Gods wrath against us was appeased on the cross. The great tribulation is completely unrelated.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Matthew 24:21 states the great tribulation will be such that nothing like it has occurred since the beginning of time. This includes the flood, does it not? Did the righteous go through that?

I'll also disagree that the great tribulation is for believers. That is not the same thing as persecution. Gods wrath against us was appeased on the cross. The great tribulation is completely unrelated.

This post is way to long for me to read everything that’s been said, but I’ve been doing a study on eschatology to teach--& although I’m a post-trib semi-supporter—I see biblical possibility with other ideas. But what you said Web jumped out at me b/c God did protect his own during the flood (on the ark) & according to most post-trib supporters—God will protect his own of any wrath that is specifically brought by Him. Most compare it to how he protected the Israelites during the Egyptian plagues. However, believers will still have to face the persecution of Satan & the evil world system that happens during the tribulation (ex Rev 13). I saw someone earlier ask how Christ can come back with his church if post-trib is true — the answer is in 1 thes 4:16-17- specifically in the term “To meet”- which in Greek is ‘apantesis’ a technical term for meeting a visiting dignitary. A delegation honored the important visitor by going outside the city and meeting him and his entourage on the road. Together the entire party would then proceed back into the city with great pomp and fanfare. In essence, the event happened fast and was basically so similar in timing that there was no room for a great amount of time to elapse. Anyway I like seeing the arguments of pre-tribers b/c I do think their stance has biblical validity, & I think all the biblical possibilities should genuinely be examined when it comes to eschatology

 

[RLBosley]

The rapture is not a coming of Christ because His feet never touch the ground we meet Him in the air.

Scripture for that please? Can you find just one verse ANYWHERE that explicitly says that?

You haven't even one scripture that proves the underlined definitively. Scripture just does not support such nonsense.

I just gave you 4 verses. The entire New Testament supports that "nonsense."

Then how do you explain the Lords return with all His saints;

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

2 Thess 1:7 is your answer
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

You're not saying Paul is a liar are you? How can Christ return with all His saints if we aren't with Him when He returns.

Because I disagree with you I'm calling the apostle a liar? Really? Are you that proud? Anyway- your problem is you assume saints here means believers. 2 Thess (above) shows that this translation of saints is to be understood as the angels. Jude also mentions this event.
Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Maybe you should pay attention to Gregory Perry
MB

I've listened, not to him in particular, but to MANY like him. I grew up in a solidly dispensational church. I was in the IFB realm for a couple years and they are dogmatically pre-trib. But through thorough study and the much prayer I have seen that it is entirely false. Trust me, a year ago I would have given a hearty "AMEN" to everything said in support of pre-trib. When I first started to see differently I was VERY reluctant to change. But God drug me "kicking and screaming" to post-tribulationism.

Matthew 24:21 states the great tribulation will be such that nothing like it has occurred since the beginning of time. This includes the flood, does it not? Did the righteous go through that?

I'll also disagree that the great tribulation is for believers. That is not the same thing as persecution. Gods wrath against us was appeased on the cross. The great tribulation is completely unrelated.

Yes actually the righteous DID go through the flood. Remember the ark?
Do you have one verse that supports the idea that the "Great Tribulation" is the same as God wrath being indiscriminately poured out on the earth?

 

[RLBosley]

This post is way to long for me to read everything that’s been said, but I’ve been doing a study on eschatology to teach--& although I’m a post-trib semi-supporter—I see biblical possibility with other ideas. But what you said Web jumped out at me b/c God did protect his own during the flood (on the ark) & according to most post-trib supporters—God will protect his own of any wrath that is specifically brought by Him. Most compare it to how he protected the Israelites during the Egyptian plagues. However, believers will still have to face the persecution of Satan & the evil world system that happens during the tribulation (ex Rev 13). I saw someone earlier ask how Christ can come back with his church if post-trib is true — the answer is in 1 thes 4:16-17- specifically in the term “To meet”- which in Greek is ‘apantesis’ a technical term for meeting a visiting dignitary. A delegation honored the important visitor by going outside the city and meeting him and his entourage on the road. Together the entire party would then proceed back into the city with great pomp and fanfare. In essence, the event happened fast and was basically so similar in timing that there was no room for a great amount of time to elapse. Anyway I like seeing the arguments of pre-tribers b/c I do think their stance has biblical validity, & I think all the biblical possibilities should genuinely be examined when it comes to eschatology

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[ryarn]

I believe in a Pre Trib rapture, but i would like to know if anybody believes that christians dying from CHRISTS death on the cross to when the last person who is to be saved before the tribulation starts, is a held view by any group and what it is called. (A sort of gathering of his sheep thru the church age as a process before the tribulation instead of the rapture being an event that just happens)?

 

[MB]

Scripture for that please? Can you find just one verse ANYWHERE that explicitly says that?

Certainly;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Show me in this verse where it says His feet touch the ground

I just gave you 4 verses. The entire New Testament supports that "nonsense."

Lets see what they support;

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Show me where this says any Gentile can be a Jew.

Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

This verse is letting us know that there were Gentiles living in Israel

Galatians 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

This says nothing that you claim;

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Peter was speaking to Jews because He was an apostle to the Jews. The word's "holy nation" prove you are wrong Gentile are not a nation but of many nations since they are the rest of the world.
It's simple you are twisting scripture trying to make it seem as if you know what you are talking about

By faith we are the children of Abraham. By unbelief the natural Jews have been broken off. The Church is the Israel of God.

This is not true at all and not one verse can you find says that it is.

2 Thess 1:7 is your answer
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Now you are pretending I quoted a verse I did not quote.

Because I disagree with you I'm calling the apostle a liar?

Not so. It's because you disagree with scripture not me I could care less whether you agree with me or not. I didn't write the Bible but I can read it.

Really? Are you that proud? Anyway- your problem is you assume saints here means believers. 2 Thess (above) shows that this translation of saints is to be understood as the angels. Jude also mentions this event.
Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Angles are not Saints. They were never lost nor can they be saved. You can't prove this nonsense either. You see like the typical Calvinist when scripture says one thing you try to change it to suit your false beliefs.

I've listened, not to him in particular, but to MANY like him. I grew up in a solidly dispensational church. I was in the IFB realm for a couple years and they are dogmatically pre-trib. But through thorough study and the much prayer I have seen that it is entirely false. Trust me, a year ago I would have given a hearty "AMEN" to everything said in support of pre-trib. When I first started to see differently I was VERY reluctant to change. But God drug me "kicking and screaming" to post-tribulationism.

I see no reason to believe you because even you admit that you waver like a reed in the wind between doctrines. God doesn't dragg anyone any where that's more Calvinist nonsense.
Your faith does not seem stable and you listen to men more that what God has already said.

Yes actually the righteous DID go through the flood. Remember the ark?
Do you have one verse that supports the idea that the "Great Tribulation" is the same as God wrath being indiscriminately poured out on the earth?

Yes the righteous did go through the flood with Noah. However they were saved above the flood and did not suffer because they followed God's instructions. You've told us that Christians will suffer in the tribulation.
MB

 

[RLBosley]

Certainly;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Show me in this verse where it says His feet touch the ground

Show me in that verse where it says this is a pre-trib gathering of the saints...

Lets see what they support;

Show me where this says any Gentile can be a Jew.

This verse is letting us know that there were Gentiles living in Israel

This says nothing that you claim;

Peter was speaking to Jews because He was an apostle to the Jews. The word's "holy nation" prove you are wrong Gentile are not a nation but of many nations since they are the rest of the world.
It's simple you are twisting scripture trying to make it seem as if you know what you are talking about

This is not true at all and not one verse can you find says that it is.

Wow. That's some impressive violence you're doing to the scripture and to what I said...

Not "Any gentile can be a jew."
Well physically that's obvious. But through the whole of scripture God is looking for those who have FAITH! He says circumcise your hearts! That's what Romans 2:28 is saying! A Jew - a child of Abraham and inheritor of the promise- is not just one who has been physically circumcised but those that have the faith of Abraham.

"This verse is letting us know that there were Gentiles living in Israel"
You're joking right? In the context of describing the difference between those who were physically children of Abraham yet not receiving the promise, you think Paul just want's to drop a line about Gentiles living in the land? Seriously?

"This says nothing that you claim;"
Actually that says everything about this issue. Those that are the "new creation" (regeneration by the Spirit) are the Israel of God.

"Peter was speaking to Jews because He was an apostle to the Jews.The word's "holy nation" prove you are wrong Gentile are not a nation but of many nations since they are the rest of the world."
So did Peter take a different Gospel to the Jews? Were the Jewish believers any less (more?) Christian than Gentile believers? This was written to CHRISTIANS who happen to be of Jewish lineage.

And calling all believers a "holy nation" is entirely consistent with the rest of the New Testament. Jesus said in Matt 21 says to the Pharisees "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Jesus couldn't have been talking about an earthly Kingdom because the theocracy was long dead and the Jews were under the boot of the Romans.

Believers are "ambassadors of Christ" ambassadors are residents of a far-off country. in the same way we believers are the residents of the Holy nation - the people of God's Kingdom.

Now you are pretending I quoted a verse I did not quote.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Not so. It's because you disagree with scripture not me I could care less whether you agree with me or not. I didn't write the Bible but I can read it.

You be able to read it but you seem to have difficulty in understanding it.

Angles are not Saints.They were never lost nor can they be saved. You can't prove this nonsense either.

I already answered this in the Post-tribulation thread.

You see like the typical Calvinist when scripture says one thing you try to change it to suit your false beliefs.

I see no reason to believe you because even you admit that you waver like a reed in the wind between doctrines. God doesn't dragg anyone any where that's more Calvinist nonsense.
Your faith does not seem stable and you listen to men more that what God has already said.

:laugh: You think I'm a Calvinist? Sorry not so.

So you think I'm a liar and that my faith is unstable? How Christian of you. I have NEVER said any such thing! The only time I have EVER changed beliefs is when something has been proven to me and God has convicted me of the truth. I came to these beliefs SOLELY through BIBLE STUDY. Bible alone. Sola Scriptura. For you to say that I listen to men more than God is laughable since NOONE reading scripture thoroughly would ever come to a dispensational point of view.

And the "Kicking and screaming" bit was a joke. I was simply saying that to illustrate how the scripture was all pointing to one way and i didn't want to go that way because i was comfortable with dispensationalism. It's what I grew up in and had been taught all my life! I didn't want to let go of it. It was comfortable. But I had to let the scripture speak for itself and allow God to lead me. Thus "God drug me kicking and screaming"

Yes the righteous did go through the flood with Noah. However they were saved above the flood and did not suffer because they followed God's instructions. You've told us that Christians will suffer in the tribulation.
MB

You haven't paid attention to anything I've said... there is no "the tribulation." Tribulation is the experience of persecution and suffering. Not a period of time with that name! And Jesus said we would suffer tribulation, Paul said it, Peter said it, and the uniform testimony of the church is tribulation and persecution. We wouldn't have Foxe's book of Martyrs if that wasn't so.

 

[saturneptune]

Bosley,
Your central idea is that there is no defined tribulation. I think there are two threads expressing this. I will say this, at least it has my mind thinking about it. It seems it boils down to how one interprets Daniel 9.

Aside from the difference of opinion about the specific issue, you express yourself in a very mature way, despite the names and tone of the posts you have endured. I tell you what gets me the angriest, is the fact, that no matter what the issue, related to the sovereignty and grace of God or not, Calvin and Calvinism slithers into the thread. Post trib has NOTHING to do with Calvinism, but here it is, saturating the thread. If I started a thread on Dairy Queen menus, someone would bring Calvin into the thread.

Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your posts and thinking about the issue.

 

[Tom Butler]

One pre-trib argument is that at the rapture, Christ comes FOR his saints; at the end of the tribulation he comes WITH his saints.

Here's a way both can be true post-tribulation. At the end of the tribulation, the trump will sound and Christ begins to descend with the saints from the heavens. At the same time, the tribulation saints are caught up to meet him and other saints. Together, then descend to the earth, where God will prepare a new heavens and new earth as a dwelling place.

After all, John says God's dwelling place is with men. I think the case can be made that the new earth is where we will spend eternity with the Lord.

 

[RLBosley]

Bosley,
Your central idea is that there is no defined tribulation. I think there are two threads expressing this. I will say this, at least it has my mind thinking about it. It seems it boils down to how one interprets Daniel 9.

That definitely is a central point to it. And I agree it all boils down to Dan 9. That is a focal point in dispensationalism, it affects eschatology and ecclesiology. That verse is the only place that anyone finds any support for a 7 year tribulation. But in context it just doesn't fit. As far as I know, not a single theologian believed that 70th week was future for 1800 years. There may have been a few, after all I can't read everything, but the overwhelming consensus is it was all fulfilled in Christ.

Aside from the difference of opinion about the specific issue, you express yourself in a very mature way, despite the names and tone of the posts you have endured. I tell you what gets me the angriest, is the fact, that no matter what the issue, related to the sovereignty and grace of God or not, Calvin and Calvinism slithers into the thread. Post trib has NOTHING to do with Calvinism, but here it is, saturating the thread. If I started a thread on Dairy Queen menus, someone would bring Calvin into the thread.

Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your posts and thinking about the issue.

Well thank you very much. That is one reason why I have so few posts yet I've been a member here for almost a year, this place is just...trying. And I agree, post-trib has nothing to do with Calvinism. It is true that most Arminians/non-cals lean pre-trib and most Cals lean post-trib (either in the Amill or pre-mill variation) but neither system demands it.

And of course that would start a discussion of Calvinism... cause God decreed that you'd enjoy a Blizzard. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[MB]

Scripture for that please? Can you find just one verse ANYWHERE that explicitly says that?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No where in Thessalonians does the Lords feet ever touch the ground.

I just gave you 4 verses. The entire New Testament supports that "nonsense."

I believe those verses, just not your version of interpretation of them. There are more than one resurrection. There are two gatherings of the sealed. In the rapture and at the second coming. They are clearly two separate events. Post tribers lump them both together.

2 Thess 1:7 is your answer
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,


Because I disagree with you I'm calling the apostle a liar?

Not because you disagree with me but because you disagree with the plain teaching of the Bible. The truth is in scripture all you need to do is believe it. Then stop twisting scripture to match what you want it to say.

Really? Are you that proud?

All I can say to that is you must have discovered I'm right and now your jealous.

Anyway- your problem is you assume saints here means believers. 2 Thess (above) shows that this translation of saints is to be understood as the angels. Jude also mentions this event.
Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I said what scripture says clearly and you deny that He will return with all His saints. Angles are not saints and you certainly are no Biblical Greek expert that you can translate any thing. You use far to many versions for my taste to arrive at your conclusions. This proves you like to pick and choose which is a very poor way of trying to understand scripture.
The word saint can never be translated correctly unless you at least follow a dictionary. There is only one meaning to the word "Saint" It does not in any circumstances mean angles. You are way off track there my friend. Yet you seem to think you know more about Biblical Greek than the Bible translators do.

I've listened, not to him in particular, but to MANY like him. I grew up in a solidly dispensational church. I was in the IFB realm for a couple years and they are dogmatically pre-trib. But through thorough study and the much prayer I have seen that it is entirely false. Trust me, a year ago I would have given a hearty "AMEN" to everything said in support of pre-trib. When I first started to see differently I was VERY reluctant to change. But God drug me "kicking and screaming" to post-tribulationism.

I don't believe it was God dragging you. That doesn't mean you weren't dragged, it just was not God.

Yes actually the righteous DID go through the flood. Remember the ark?
Do you have one verse that supports the idea that the "Great Tribulation" is the same as God wrath being indiscriminately poured out on the earth?

Can you show scripture that plainly states that the rapture doesn't happen until the second coming?
MB