RC Sproul and Alcoholic Beverages

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Did you read the OP. The first sentence is:

This thread would not exist if there were not two sides to that question. It is a debate forum. I have stated my conviction; and you have stated your opinion.

Let's use an illustration.
Is it right to lie? No.
Is it ever right to lie, perhaps a little, maybe in some occasions?
--Well just "in moderation."

Is it right to drink? No.
Is it ever right to drink, perhaps a little, maybe in some occasions?
--Well just "in moderation."

I suppose that if you can lie in moderation you can drink in moderation.
What is the difference between being a liar and drinking. Both are sin.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Didnt Christ turn water into wine at a wedding function? Now why would He do that I suppose? And then again at the last supper.....what was the symbol of his blood he was passing around?

 

[Herald]

Didnt Christ turn water into wine at a wedding function? Now why would He do that I suppose? And then again at the last supper.....what was the symbol of his blood he was passing around?

But did you not know the wine Jesus made was nothing but Welch's grape juice?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I read it. I attended New Jersey public schools (which is not saying much).

Wasnt any worse than a Catholic edu!

And the key verse:

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

Shall we play the game you a verse, me a verse, everyone a verse verse?

:laugh: :thumbs:

 

[Herald]

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But did you not know the wine Jesus made was nothing but Welch's grape juice?

Shoulda had a V8 (Low sodium that is) .... Oh :godisgood:

 

[preacher4truth]

Didnt Christ turn water into wine at a wedding function? Now why would He do that I suppose? And then again at the last supper.....what was the symbol of his blood he was passing around?

The fundies around here teach it was grape juice -- Welchensteins. Later they shortened it to Welch's. :laugh:

We reformed know better, it was fermented and wine is for the merriment of our hearts. :wavey:

 

[DHK]

Quite right. I think the biblical evidence proves you are wrong.

That is up for debate.

Luke 22:18 "or I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."

Fruit is fruit. Obviously then it is grape juice he is speaking of.
Let's lay down some principles right away.
First, context is king. The context determines the meaning of the word. Obviously a person does not get drunk on juice. That is a given.
Secondly, both in Hebrew (yayin), and in Greek (oinos), and also in older English (wine), all these words had a double meaning of either fermented wine or unfermented wine. Either meaning could be correct depending on the context.
Consider the English word "cider." I went to "Second Cup" (like Starbucks) and had a cider (hot apple drink). I passed through Germany once and saw that they also sold cider. But I refrained. That same "cider" was a fermented beverage, and since I don't drink it may have had an unwanted effect on me. It is the same word with two different meanings. So are the former words.

The "fruit of the vine" in Luke, is obviously referring to grape juice, that which comes straight from the vine.

Ruth 3:7 When Boaz had eaten and drunk and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of grain; and she came secretly, and uncovered his feet and lay down.

Obviously an intoxicating beverage.

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

It is doubtful that Abraham would have given him an alcoholic beverage.
The symbolism of fermented wine also is important to consider.

Numbers 28:14 Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull and a third of a hin for the ram and a fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year.

No offering could be with leaven or yeast such as fermented wine.

Deuteronomy 7:13 He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock, in the land which He swore to your forefathers to give you.

Generally speaking new wine is grape juice; there is no reason not to take it in that sense here.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.

I would be wary about using any verse in Ecclesiastes as a proof text without considering the context of the entire book. Why was it written? What is the theme of the book?

Isaiah 25:6 The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine.

Again, context? What is Isaiah speaking of here? What time period?
I believe he is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom. By that time we will have new and resurrected bodies. Eye has not seen; ear has not heard, etc.

And the key verse:

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

The verse is an illustration. The command is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. We are to be so filled with the Spirit of God that we are to allow Him to control us as alcohol takes control of a drunk man. A drunk says things and does things that he regrets saying and doing.
A person filled with the Spirit will say things and do things (under an influence not of himself) that he will not regret but rather rejoice in.

Shall we play the game you a verse, me a verse, everyone a verse verse?

No, but I can answer your objections.

 

[Herald]

Fruit is fruit. Obviously then it is grape juice he is speaking of.

Obviously? No. Show me from anywhere in the Bible that wine, whether new or aged, is non-alcoholic.

Let's lay down some principles right away.

No. Let us not. You do not get to set the agenda for me.

The "fruit of the vine" in Luke, is obviously referring to grape juice, that which comes straight from the vine.

Obviously. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Obviously an intoxicating beverage.

You are going to be owing royalties to Ingio Montoya.

Why could not Boaz' heart be merry because of the harvest? Nowhere in the text does it even hint that Boaz was intoxicated. Throughout the book of Ruth, Boaz is presented as a redemptive figure.

It is doubtful that Abraham would have given him an alcoholic beverage.

Why? Because you say so?

No offering could be with leaven or yeast such as fermented wine.

Recant not decant, DHK:

Numbers 28:7 'Then the drink offering with it shall be a fourth of a hin for each lamb, in the holy place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the Lord.' (emphasis mine)

Generally speaking new wine is grape juice; there is no reason not to take it in that sense here.

Someone else addressed the contention that wine is grape juice better than me:

yayin -- This word is translated "wine" in most versions. In most contexts we will see that it refers to a clearly alcoholic drink.
Some writers dispute this interpretation, however. Bacchiocchi [Bac.W, 62] argues that yayin "was used to refer to variety of wines," including the newly pressed juice and fermented, alcoholic wine. He notes that fresh (non-alcoholic) wine before fermenting was called yayin mi-gat, or "wine of the vat," or from the press, while older and fermented wine was called yayin yashan, or if it was much older, yayin meyushshan or yashan noshan. He therefore concludes that yayin often referred to fresh grape juice.

There are a few problems with Bacchiocchi's arguments, however. First, the distinction between the various stages of yayin appears only in the rabbinic literature from after the Christian era. No such distinction is found in the OT, and the rabbinic references are between 500-1900 years after the OT references. Unless there is some evidence that the distinctions were made much earlier than the time of the rabbis, Bacchiocchi's argument cannot hold ground.

Second, since the OT makes no distinction in classes of yayin, Bacchiocchi must generally employ a circular hermenuetic in support of his case: anywhere where yayin is condemned refers to alcoholic wine, but anyplace where it is approved refers to grape juice. We will explore individual cases below.

Finally, it should be noted that according to the rabbinic sources Bacchiocchi uses, the yayin mi-gat was in it's unfermented stage for only three days. This may be useful in addressing whether, even under the definition given, yayin ever refers to non-alcoholic grape juice in the OT. We shall see that the Bible does permit the consumption of alcoholic yayin, while condemning the use of it to the point of drunkenness.

Bottom line? You have no biblical evidence to suggest wine in any form was not fermented.

I would be wary about using any verse in Ecclesiastes as a proof text without considering the context of the entire book. Why was it written? What is the theme of the book?

Are you lecturing me?! I suggest you follow your own advice.

Again, context? What is Isaiah speaking of here? What time period?
I believe he is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom. By that time we will have new and resurrected bodies. Eye has not seen; ear has not heard, etc.

What in the world does that have to do with "aged wine" in the passage? Nothing.

The verse is an illustration. The command is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. We are to be so filled with the Spirit of God that we are to allow Him to control us as alcohol takes control of a drunk man. A drunk says things and does things that he regrets saying and doing.
A person filled with the Spirit will say things and do things (under an influence not of himself) that he will not regret but rather rejoice in.

Paul could have easily wrote, "Do not drink wine" but he did not. The prohibition is not on drinking wine but on becoming intoxicated.

Let me add something:

1 Timothy 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

Since you come from the camp that says "all" in John 3:16 means all without distinction, then everything means the same thing.

 

[DHK]

Paul could have easily wrote, "Do not drink wine" but he did not. The prohibition is not on drinking wine but on becoming intoxicated.

Let me add something:

1 Timothy 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

Since you come from the camp that says "all" in John 3:16 means all without distinction, then everything means the same thing.

When one considers "substance abuse" one of the first things they consider is "alcoholic beverages"--drunkenness.
Next is marijuana, cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, etc.

Everything created by God is good and nothing to be refused.
By your reasoning marijuana coming from hemp, is good and should not be refused.
Cocaine comes from the coco plant.
Heroin and Opium come from the poppy plant.

We shouldn't refuse them, right?
It is substance abuse, as is alcohol.
Oh, I know, these other drugs can be taken in moderation too.

 

[Herald]

When one considers "substance abuse" one of the first things they consider is "alcoholic beverages"--drunkenness.
Next is marijuana, cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, etc.

Everything created by God is good and nothing to be refused.
By your reasoning marijuana coming from hemp, is good and should not be refused.
Cocaine comes from the coco plant.
Heroin and Opium come from the poppy plant.

We shouldn't refuse them, right?
It is substance abuse, as is alcohol.
Oh, I know, these other drugs can be taken in moderation too.

You turn twisting scripture into an art form.

God created trees. Certainly that is good thing, no? But if someone fashions a baseball bat out of a piece of ash and beats someone to death with it are we to say trees are no longer good?

God created all things. We are to enjoy all things by using them in a manner that is intrinsically good. I can have a nice Dogfish Head I.P.A. and not become intoxicated. I can have six Dogfish Head I.P.A.'s and I know for a fact I will become intoxicated. But if I were to smoke one joint I know I will get high. What is the distinction? Marijuana is smoked in order to get high (medicinal purposes notwithstanding). Alcohol does not necessarily lead to intoxication. Abusing alcohol will.

 

[Aaron]

But did you not know the wine Jesus made was nothing but Welch's grape juice?

What can you tell us about ancient oenology?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What can you tell us about ancient oenology?

There is a thing called Google.... night night:sleep::sleeping_2:

 

[Herald]

What can you tell us about ancient oenology?

Aaron, I only have a rudimentary knowledge. Seeing as I was not present during ancient times I can only glean from others. Earlier in this thread I quoted a portion of an article from a gentlemen who refutes the idea that yayin refers to non-alcoholic wine.

The issue is still one of Christian liberty. If you do not wish to imbibe then you have the liberty not to. I honestly do worry about those who are concerned about people exercising their Christian liberty in many areas of life. I understand where that line of thinking comes from, and the false piety it promises to those who abstain from exercising liberty. What I will not allow is for fundamentalists to tell me what I can or cannot do.

 

[evangelist6589]

It should be noted that Paul did not rebuke the Corinthians for drinking whatsoever, but only for being drunk at a solemn event. As another matter of fact, he asks them if they don't have houses to do this in, rather than doing it during the Lords supper.

Consuming alcohol is not a sin, yet our culture in the USA has made many weak and offended by this biblically permissable act due to not handling the Word of God correctly and making rules from commandments of men.

Amen brother I could not agree more.

 

[Luke2427]

That's an arbitrary stipulation of your own imagination. In other words, b. s.

We're talking about wine, the fact that the Scriptures say it is a genuine matter of conscience, and the commandment to support the weak and the manifestation of love in that case.

How to identify a genuine matter of conscience not explicitly mentioned is an entirely different issue altogether, and not a prerequisite to the above.

And you still refuse to deal with it.

Why does it apply to drinking alcohol in moderation and not apply to drinking caffeine in moderation?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Aaron, I only have a rudimentary knowledge. Seeing as I was not present during ancient times I can only glean from others. Earlier in this thread I quoted a portion of an article from a gentlemen who refutes the idea that yayin refers to non-alcoholic wine.

The issue is still one of Christian liberty. If you do not wish to imbibe then you have the liberty not to. I honestly do worry about those who are concerned about people exercising their Christian liberty in many areas of life. I understand where that line of thinking comes from, and the false piety it promises to those who abstain from exercising liberty. What I will not allow is for fundamentalists to tell me what I can or cannot do.

Hearty amen :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And you still refuse to deal with it.

Why does it apply to drinking alcohol in moderation and not apply to drinking caffeine in moderation?

Or if your a sick perverted who views sex with underaged kids as his addiction should we be having relations with our mates? The perv is our weaker brother after all right so why risk encouring him? See that's the difference, my darling wife cannot control herself when she drinks....her history with alcohol is not good. While I can consume a 6 pack then never touch it again...is it fair, no its not...but its reality. In her weakness she becomes stronger by exercising will power in abstinence & that is a level of maturity I respect & love about her.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, I only have a rudimentary knowledge. Seeing as I was not present during ancient times I can only glean from others. Earlier in this thread I quoted a portion of an article from a gentlemen who refutes the idea that yayin refers to non-alcoholic wine.

Wow. I'm impressed.

 

[Aaron]

And you still refuse to deal with it.

It's irrelevent and stupid. I've already shown your answers to a straightforward Scriptural example of a matter of conscience to be antithetical to Paul's, and you think you've stumped me over neckwear?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's irrelevent and stupid. I've already shown your answers to a straightforward Scriptural example of a matter of conscience to be antithetical to Paul's, and you think you've stumped me over neckwear?

Any different than suggesting we are all closit alcoholics... the actual word was 'drunks' and so we are defending moderate drinking...now there is a stupid remark.