RC Sproul and Alcoholic Beverages

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, but I did not think you would throw rocks at me as an individual either, after reading my posts about liberalism and Obama. I do not know how many posts I have made comparing our two Senators, Paul and McConnell, to point out the differences between the Tea Party and the mainstream Republicans, which are nothing more than Democrats with a different label.

Where did I throw rocks at you?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not amazed but those who are against alcohol CONSUMPTION are not using Biblical evidence to support their notion, and those who KNOW that Biblical evidence does not condemn CONSUMPTION use Scriptural evidence to support their case . Each person against CONSUMPTION introduce DRUNKENESS in support of their argument which is a straw man argument. IOW they MUST go to the extreme in an attempt to win.

Not one has answered the evidence given in post #84. Why? Because the commandments of men override Scripture in this case. Such persons have succombed to culture, not Biblical revelation.

Note that it was even suggested that we are "drunks" attempting to justify our drunkedness. Funny stuff right!

 

[Aaron]

Listen Aaron, I am well aware of the situation....been living with my wife for 28 years now & she is a recovering alcoholic. We have been through those scenarios more than you could imagine. For a long time I did not drink so as not to start anything that could cause her to drink ...like anger that drinking had no lasting effects on me, yada yada yada...ad nausem.

I did not pick up a drink again until one day she chastised me for not enjoying a beer now and again. After all she said, it is her that is the alcoholic & needs to own it...not me. Then I knew she was beyond all the blame game & had matured to were she had no desire for it. My wife now realizes her limitations & deals with them head on.

No, you STILL don't get it.

She obviously has no conscience toward wine as an evil thing. Her alcoholism is irrelevant—though "make no provision for the flesh" may apply in your case.

 

[Aaron]

That is pure baloney, and is contrary to every ideal the Bible is trying to teach.

Actually it is exactly what Paul said. Anyone who violates his conscience is sinning, even though the activity itself is really no sin.

And the one who emboldens one to violate his conscience has sinned. This is really pretty basic stuff.

Do I need to post the Scriptures?

 

[Aaron]

I think it has been missed that I no where said the temperate consumption of wine is sin.

I'm merely pointing out that the arguments made about it by everyone except myself have been unbiblical and based on living for one's self, and not for one another as Paul had stated.

Again, do I need to post the Scripture?

 

[saturneptune]

Actually it is exactly what Paul said. Anyone who violates his conscience is sinning, even though the activity itself is really no sin.

And the one who emboldens one to violate his conscience has sinned. This is really pretty basic stuff.

Do I need to post the Scriptures?

No thanks, I can read. The problem is you assume everyone breathing has a conscience to violate with relation to alcohol.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, you STILL don't get it.

She obviously has no conscience toward wine as an evil thing. Her alcoholism is irrelevant—though "make no provision for the flesh" may apply in your case.

Now why in Gods name would wine be an evil thing? Thats rediculous.

 

[Luke2427]

Hardly.

Question: If by your actions you embolden a weaker brother to violate his conscience, have you sinned against Christ?

So you want me to answer questions but you want answer questions?

What is the difference between a weaker brother with a hang-up about wearing a tie and a weaker brother with a hang-up about drinking alcohol responsibly?

Or better yet, what is the difference between a weakness based on ignorance about carrying gun and drinking responsibly?

 

[Luke2427]

I think it has been missed that I no where said the temperate consumption of wine is sin.

I'm merely pointing out that the arguments made about it by everyone except myself have been unbiblical and based on living for one's self, and not for one another as Paul had stated.

Again, do I need to post the Scripture?

Again, you have to show that your position is truly applicable.

There are two billion people who claim to be Christians. They hanve hundreds of million of stupid hang-ups that if we let them lord those stupid hang-ups over us- we LITERALLY COULD NOT LIVE.

What you've got to show is the limit of the weaker brother principle.

Why does it apply to drinking alcohol in moderation and not apply to drinking caffeine in moderation?


That's what you refuse to deal with.

Until you can show where you think the weaker brother principle stops, you have no argument.

 

[Aaron]

Until you can show where you think the weaker brother principle stops, you have no argument.

That's an arbitrary stipulation of your own imagination. In other words, b. s.

We're talking about wine, the fact that the Scriptures say it is a genuine matter of conscience, and the commandment to support the weak and the manifestation of love in that case.

How to identify a genuine matter of conscience not explicitly mentioned is an entirely different issue altogether, and not a prerequisite to the above.

 

[Aaron]

Now why in Gods name would wine be an evil thing? Thats rediculous.

It isn't ridiculous. God said many, understandably, have that notion, and He gave instructions concerning it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It isn't ridiculous. God said many, understandably, have that notion, and He gave instructions concerning it.

Yea religious nuts, fools & Weaklings. I don't pander to them. They are slavishly stupid people.

 

[Aaron]

Yeah, that's what Paul said. :rolls eyes:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yeah, that's what Paul said. :rolls eyes:

Paul told Timmy to take a little wine.:laugh:

 

[DHK]

Simple resolution....I wouldnt have made the choice to go to a Muslem country then.

Not many of us would choose to go there. It is a matter of obedience. If God calls you to such a nation would you disobey God's call.
"Whom shall I send; Who will go for me?"
"Here am I Lord, Send me." That was the proper response.
Paul said: "Lord what will thou have me to do."
But you are not willing to obey God even if that is what God wants you to do, and primarily because they have no bars, no alcohol to drink??

And then why would I even do that when I got a mission field right here in New Jersey. An area with pubs & legal liquor stores.

Jersey City is a city of approximately 250,000 people with at least 26 Baptist churches in it. That is a ration of one Baptist church for every ten thousand residents. Not bad. In the winter you could probably make a snowball and throw right into New York City, where there are hundreds of Baptist churches. No excuse not to find a church that you can't go to.

About ten percent of your population comes from the Indian subcontinent. That means they are either Hindu or Muslim.
A devout Muslim will not drink alcoholic beverages. If you love your neighbor as yourself and desire that they come to Christ you will abstain from alcoholic beverages in order to win those people to Christ. You will never win them to the Lord in pubs and bars, or by offering them a drink. Even having liquor in your house may be an offense to them.

If it is your desire or calling to go, then go to a Muslem country.....thats your choice. Not mine.

It wasn't my desire; God commanded me. I obeyed his call. If God commands you would you obey him? Would you go to a nation where all alcohol is strictly forbidden and you would be put in jail for drinking?

It seems that you are addicted to drink or at least the privilege to drink. You wouldn't be able to live your life without it.
And yet the Bible says:

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

You seem to be under the power of drink or at least the privilege to have it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You seem to be under the power of drink or at least the privilege to have it.

Really, is that your conclusion...:laugh:

 

[Herald]

I have never mentioned this publicly on the BB, but I am a moderator on the PB. There many Baptists on the PB. There are those on that board who have a personal scruple about consuming alcohol. Others do not. Instead of worrying about your brother's liberty, be concerned about your own Christian walk. Do not label something as sin that God has not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have never mentioned this publicly on the BB, but I am a moderator on the PB. There many Baptists on the PB. There are those on that board who have a personal scruple about consuming alcohol. Others do not. Instead of worrying about your brother's liberty, be concerned about your own Christian walk. Do not label something as sin that God has not.

And since its not a sin, I toast you with a Guinness (i drink them at room temperature) & I enjoy it immensely.....here is to you brother! :wavey:

Cheers :laugh::love2:

 

[DHK]

Do not label something as sin that God has not.

Did you read the OP. The first sentence is:

To some drinking may be a sin, while others it may not be.

This thread would not exist if there were not two sides to that question. It is a debate forum. I have stated my conviction; and you have stated your opinion.

Let's use an illustration.
Is it right to lie? No.
Is it ever right to lie, perhaps a little, maybe in some occasions?
--Well just "in moderation."

Is it right to drink? No.
Is it ever right to drink, perhaps a little, maybe in some occasions?
--Well just "in moderation."

I suppose that if you can lie in moderation you can drink in moderation.
What is the difference between being a liar and drinking. Both are sin.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

 

[Herald]

Did you read the OP. The first sentence is:

I read it. I attended New Jersey public schools (which is not saying much).

This thread would not exist if there were not two sides to that question.

Quite right. I think the biblical evidence proves you are wrong.

It is a debate forum. I have stated my conviction; and you have stated your opinion.

I believe that is obvious.

Let's use an illustration.

No. Let you use an illustration. "Let's" is the contraction of "let us". I am not submitting to your illustration.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

So, now it is a proof text contest?

Luke 22:18 "or I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."

Ruth 3:7 When Boaz had eaten and drunk and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of grain; and she came secretly, and uncovered his feet and lay down.

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

Numbers 28:14 Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull and a third of a hin for the ram and a fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year.

Deuteronomy 7:13 He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock, in the land which He swore to your forefathers to give you.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.

Isaiah 25:6 The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine.

And the key verse:

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

Shall we play the game you a verse, me a verse, everyone a verse verse?