Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture

[Don]

I see he has posted and he is on ignore as I am so tired of his attitude, his pride, his divisive spirit and so forth. Did he learn anything in his suspension? WinMan you need to learn.

I would like to see your answers to what he posted, so here are his questions (I took the liberty of deleting personal remarks; Winman and moderators, my apologies if I've overstepped my boundaries):
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That's not how it works John. Take ANY of those verses you posted, and explain exactly how they support a Pre-Trib rapture.

I will show you a verse that refutes a Pre-Trib rapture.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These verses say AFTER the tribulation the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood, and the stars will fall, and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see Jesus coming in the clouds.

Now you show ANY verse that says Jesus will come before the tribulation.

 

[JonC]

Re-read them

I do see how 1 Jn 3:2 could provide support, but not necessarily the other passages for a pre-trib rapture. I am not, however, debating this with you...I believe in a pre-trib rapture but am disqualified to defend that position due to a lack of study on my part. I look for our coming Lord, but beyond that the issue has largely escaped my attention. Eschatology is an area of weakness for me.

 

[JamesL]

I heard someone once say:

Those who are looking for a PreTrib rapture will willingly take the mark of the beast. Why? Because they're not expecting to encounter the man of sin. They're looking to be taken outta here beforehand. So whatever this thing us, it can't be the mark.

Not that I agree, but is worth condidering

 

[OldRegular]

I do see how 1 Jn 3:2 could provide support, but not necessarily the other passages for a pre-trib rapture. I am not, however, debating this with you...I believe in a pre-trib rapture but am disqualified to defend that position due to a lack of study on my part. I look for our coming Lord, but beyond that the issue has largely escaped my attention. Eschatology is an area of weakness for me.

Just why do you believe in the pre-trib removal of the Church if you cannot defend that position. Of course I do not believe it is defensible but the invention of John Nelson Darby while recovering from a folk off a horse!

 

[OldRegular]

Many here disagree with the Pretrib position, and instead hold to other views that are not consistent with scripture. I am not sure how one can come to such conclusions, and my only guess is not enough Bible study. Anyways here are some defenses.

John 14:1-3-Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Phil 3:20-21-But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

2 Thes 2:1- Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Tit 2:13-while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

1 John 2:28-3:2-And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 Thes 4:13-18-Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

You have been asked on several occasions how the verses of Scripture you cited above prove a pre-trib removal of the Church. You have yet to do so!

 

[InTheLight]

If God has predestined salvation as Calvinism teaches, why bother with evangelism at all?

That is a great question.

...and all believers are going to be snatched up as Dispensationalism teaches, why bother with evangelism at all?

Presumably because Christ's return is imminent and there is a desire to see as many people become believers as possible. Actually, it is a great motivator.

Because Jesus said so, being obedient you say? How is that not God just giving out busy work to the saved?

Well, if God has elected people for salvation from before the creation of the world (as Calvinism teaches) then evangelism efforts do seem somewhat like busy work.


(Preemptive Calvinist response: It's a mystery how God works, you shouldn't be questioning this sort of thing.)

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

That's not how it works John. Take ANY of those verses you posted, and explain exactly how they support a Pre-Trib rapture.

I don't think you have a clue, you just believe what others tell you.

I will show you a verse that refutes a Pre-Trib rapture.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These verses say AFTER the tribulation the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood, and the stars will fall, and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see Jesus coming in the clouds.

Now you show ANY verse that says Jesus will come before the tribulation.

You would be a lot more credible if you had a clue what you were talking about. You don't.

Winman this does not refute the Pre Trib Position.

This is talking about when Jesus comes again after Satan has gathered the armies of the world.

This does not prove that there is not a rapture though.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

the invention of John Nelson Darby while recovering from a folk off a horse!

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:
“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
Again we see use of language commonly found in reference to the Rapture as Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.
In line with the Apostle Paul who wrote that “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation..” Cyprian expressed joy and encourages the believing reader to rejoice that the Church will be “taken away” before the disastrous Great Tribulation. Just as The Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 used the same language of one “taken away” and the other “left.” Additionally Cyprian references the mansions which The Lord Jesus Christ promises to come back and take His believers to in John 14.
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” – John 14:1-3.


Info courtesy of http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Info courtesy of http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

Ephraim The Syrian
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:
In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”
With a sense of urgency and strong warning, Ephraim writes that the end times are upon this world and could start at any moment. This text very clearly states the saints and elect of God, all born again believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, will be “taken to the Lord” before the Great Tribulation. Ephraim also identifies the Old Testament “Day of The Lord” and the end times Great tribulation as the same event (in line with the teachings of the Beginning and End Rapture Series). Ephraim quotes Amos 5:18 which says: “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”
The point he makes is that a Christian should know the Day of The Lord is coming. In the first part of the passage Ephraim notes that:
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated)” And not only that but that true Christians will be taken away before it starts.
Here he is describing the first 3 of the first 4 seals of Revelation 6 – wars, famines and plagues. These are the same end times signs Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 24:
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. – Matthew 24:3-8.
Jesus describes these events as “the beginning of sorrows.” He also says that when these things come to pass “the end is not yet.” Ephraim’s writing agrees with this interpretation as he says those same events have been “fulfilled (consummated)” in his day, but it was still not the actual Great Tribulation. This also falls in line with Beginning and End’s Rapture series as explained in our article Who Are The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse? (The first four seals of Revelation 6 were opened at the time Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven. And the rapture itself does not occur until the opening of the 6th Seal.)
Ephraim in very strong language warns the reader not to be consumed with the cares of the world because the world in its current form, is coming to an end. As the Second Advent or Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ grows near, believers are to look to Heaven and set their hearts on pleasing God. It is clear that Ephraim distinguishes the Second Coming of Christ from the rapture, placing the Rapture before the Great Tribulation to come.

 

[Thousand Hills]

I look for our coming Lord, but beyond that the issue has largely escaped my attention. Eschatology is an area of weakness for me.

I'm in the same boat, as my father used to say "I'm still trying to get the love your neighbor part down pat" .

Not that these discussions aren't helpful, they are, but just like any other issues discussed here we can become obsessed with them. Kind of like the old joke about being a panmilleniast "however it pans out"

 

[evangelist6589]

I do see how 1 Jn 3:2 could provide support, but not necessarily the other passages for a pre-trib rapture. I am not, however, debating this with you...I believe in a pre-trib rapture but am disqualified to defend that position due to a lack of study on my part. I look for our coming Lord, but beyond that the issue has largely escaped my attention. Eschatology is an area of weakness for me.

I posted verses on the rapture but perhaps an error of mine not on the pretrib so I will correct this tonight. Off the top of my head I can think of Rev 3:10 and the churches absence from various OT passages on the tribulation as well as the rest of Revelation.

 

[OldRegular]

I'm in the same boat, as my father used to say "I'm still trying to get the love your neighbor part down pat" .

Not that these discussions aren't helpful, they are, but just like any other issues discussed here we can become obsessed with them. Kind of like the old joke about being a panmilleniast "however it pans out"

Most people are not well versed in eschatology and really have never been. I believe that is one reason for the success of Scofield's book. It purported to teach something new and many unlearned fell for it. Darby's revelation about Isaiah 32 and the popularity of the SRB have caused much rancor within the Christian community as evidenced on this BB.

I suspect that 90% or more of the "Rapture Ready dispensationalists" in the Southern Baptist Convention have no idea that the Classic Dispensationalism of Darby, Scofield, and many others teaches that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, was a "parenthesis" or an "intercalation" in God's program for Israel. That is perhaps the reason so much venom is spewed when that doctrine is mentioned.

 

[JonC]

Just why do you believe in the pre-trib removal of the Church if you cannot defend that position. Of course I do not believe it is defensible but the invention of John Nelson Darby while recovering from a folk off a horse!

You misunderstand me. I have reasons for my belief but I have not ventured enough to defend those reasons (it has not been much of a matter of interest for me). My reasons are Scripture (I think they are listed here), reasoning (studying church history, I do not believe that they looked to a tribulation period but to a more immediate return of Christ. I also agree with the reasoning that God does not "pour His wrath" upon his Church). Now, I recognize that the Scripture I would use for my position has other interpretations (and I have not worked through the subject enough to stand upon my own interpretation) and I realize that my reasoning may very well be flawed and I also realize that my both my interpretation & reason are influenced by what I was taught as a child. That is what I mean when I say I cannot defend that position (although, studying the history of the Church I do not think it correct that pre-trib is an invention of Darby). I simply have not objectively examined my view and worked through my own eschatological views. It is not, for me, a pressing matter.

 

[evangelist6589]

I'm in the same boat, as my father used to say "I'm still trying to get the love your neighbor part down pat" .



Not that these discussions aren't helpful, they are, but just like any other issues discussed here we can become obsessed with them. Kind of like the old joke about being a panmilleniast "however it pans out"

Good to be humble. I am weak in the field of textual criticism and why I rarely participate in the posts on that board.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon.

Answer these questions

.
okay,,,i will try-
\

1. How can you prove he came back in AD 70?

I do not believe Jesus physically returned to earth as per the second coming.

However...I do believe his coming....was a....[ coming IN Judgement} in other words...in the OT when God is said to be coming in judgement, or coming in the clouds......these expressions meant he judged the people...when Jesus said that there were some standing here who shall not "see death" until these things take place....in mT 24, 25, I believe he was speaking of the ...coming in judgement upon apostate Jerusalem.... a literal judgement...without a physical return....it was a sign that he was judging from heaven...look-

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


EV....now take all verses used in the premill scheme....verses that say..in the last days perilous times shall come,etc.....1tim4 and such...
now read it like it was speaking of the "last days" of the jewish theocracy, the last days of the OLD Covenant......then you will see it.

I know you do not believe that right now....but try it and see what you find.

2. How do you prove Satan was bound for 1000 years?

I believe he was bound at the cross.Satan is a spirit...how do you bind a spirit with a literal chain? he is restrained and his power is muted until one last rebellion is permitted...like a dog on a leach....
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

3. How do you explain that none of the events of the “end of the age” have ever happened, including the cataclysmic events that are supposed to take place in the heavens?

I would explain that they all happened in 70 ad.....I would explain it biblically by using OT symbols that were already known to the jews who had the scriptures....most of the symbols from mt 24, and rev...were used in the OT already.......
sun moon and stars...speak of governments being over thrown....

watchhere;
13 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.

3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

This describes a historical event the destruction of Babylon...look at the language and compare with mt 24...the birth pangs of a woman...it was a day of the Lord...

vs 10 the stars and constellations spoken of...there are many such passages in the OT used in the NT...

4. What evidence do you have that the tragic seige of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was indeed a fulfillment of Jesus’ description of the Great Tribulation?

He said there were some standing there who would see it before they died...it happened, the temple was destroyed by rome...not a revived roman empire, the temple was destroyed...the abomination of desolation.....not a rebuilt temple....the heavens being shaken in vs 13, like Hebrews 12...mens hearts melting like Hebrews 12

5. How can you possibly prove that Nero was the Antichrist, as you claim?

it happened already....why speculate that all the events must repeat themselves if it already happened?

6. If Christ returned in A.D. 70, when did the church go up in the rapture?

again....he came in judgement...not the second coming...that happens on the last day...the rapture is the last day.....jn6 says so 3x

Also Icon are you aware the document called The Didache? This document proves that those whom lived in AD 70 believed Mt 24:29-31 as unfulfilled prophecy. So in other words the early christians were futurists and not preterists

that is not so,and does not prove what scripture states.....more later...must go now

 

[Winman]

Winman this does not refute the Pre Trib Position.

This is talking about when Jesus comes again after Satan has gathered the armies of the world.

This does not prove that there is not a rapture though.

Sorry, I disagree Jordan.

Trust me, I was taught Pre-Trib all my life, but I have never been able to see it in scripture.

Prove the Pre-Trib rapture if it is in scripture. I promise you, if you can prove it from scripture, I will believe it.

But you have to show real scripture that shows it, I will not accept you reading into scripture what is not there.

 

[DHK]

Prove the Pre-Trib rapture if it is in scripture. I promise you, if you can prove it from scripture, I will believe it.

But you have to show real scripture that shows it, I will not accept you reading into scripture what is not there.

Sorry Winman I couldn't resist. :laugh:
What is the false scripture he would use? The Apocrypha? Koran?

 

[Winman]

Sorry Winman I couldn't resist. :laugh:
What is the false scripture he would use? The Apocrypha? Koran?

What I meant is that I will not accept scripture that does not make definite statements, kind of like the scripture Evangelist used to start this thread. None of those verses actually teaches a Pre-Trib rapture, but many folks have read their views into those verses and taught them over and over again, so people believe them without really examining them.

Kind of like Psalm 51:5, people say it teaches all men are born sinners. It does no such thing, it does not even speak about all men, but David alone. It says "and in sin did my mother conceive me" which is saying David's mother was doing something wrong when David was conceived. This verse does not say one word about all men being born sinners, but folks have been shown this misinterpretation so often, they accept it mindlessly without thinking.

Lots of folks do not have a clue what the Bible says, they believe a lot of man-made nonsense.

 

[Winman]

John 14:1-3-Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Not one word about when the rapture will occur.

Phil 3:20-21-But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Not one word about when the rapture will occur.


2 Thes 2:1- Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Not a word about when the rapture will occur.

Tit 2:13-while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Again, not a word about when the rapture will occur.

1 John 2:28-3:2-And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

Not a word about when the rapture will occur.

29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

This verse is not even speaking of the rapture.

3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

This passage doesn't say a thing about when the rapture will occur.

1 Thes 4:13-18-Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Not a word about when the rapture will occur.

Not one of all these verses tells us when the rapture will occur, yet Evangelist presented all these verses as evidence for a Pre-Trib rapture. He hasn't put one bit of thought into this scripture, he is just parroting what someone else wrote. And the person that used these verses as proof-texts did not have a clue either.

It is the blind leading the blind.

 

[DHK]

You only think I'm confused because you don't understand.

I am fairly certain that I understand the Scriptures quite well.

Those He foreknew (as adopted sons), He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (through suffering). Those He predestined, He CALLED (to suffer). Those He called, He justified. Those He justified, He also glorified (adopted)

A typical Calvinist cop-out. You are not really dealing with scripture as related to the OP are you?
Did God foreknow and predetermine that I should type this response to you? and what I should make for supper tonight? whether or not I should watch the news this evening?
Predestination is the default position of the Calvinist. According to one of the posters here everything is so pre-determined that God is the author of evil and man has absolutely no free will at all.

First, you were talking about how 2Thess 1:7-9 mentions Christ coming in glory with His angels, and how it is impossible for the resurrection to be at the same time. I showed you how, and now you're finished with those passages? It's no wonder so many of these threads go down so many rabbit trails. You need to learn to focus.

1Thes.4:13-18 and 2Thes.1:7-9 are irreconcilable. They talk of two different comings: one for believers and the other to take vengeance on unbelievers; one to the clouds and the other to the earth; one that no one will see and the other that all will see, etc. There are so many differences that it is impossible for them to be the same event. I don't accept your rationalization.

But, since we're just haphazardly jumping around from one topic to another (desultory conversation, apparently).....

You seem to think that wrath and tribulation are the same thing. I don't know why.

"The Tribulation," "The Seventieth Week," "Jacob's Trouble," and sometimes in the OT known as "The Day of the Lord," all refer to that seven year period when the Lord will pour out his wrath on the ungodly living on this earth at that time, after he has removed the saints.

Tribulation is from the evil one(s) toward the saints

Not always.
Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
--God's chastening may endure tribulation. It is often from God.
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
--Also sent from God.
James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
--Temptations (or tribulations) that come from God.

Wrath is from God toward the evil one(s)

--Not always.
Satan has a short time on this earth and he knows it.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

You got the wrath part, but you missed the tribulation. Daniel 7:

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,

20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.

24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

What is your point here? Satan is waging war with the OT saints, namely Israel.

Revelation 13:7

It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Also, the resurrection is at the END of the Tribulation, not the beginning. Revelation 20:

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

There's no getting around the fact that the FIRST resurrection includes those who did not take the mark of the beast, nor worship him. You view has them in the second or third resurrection. Or 4th, who knows?

If you read John MacArthur he does believe in 3 or 4 resurrections.
Jesus resurrection, rapture, Second Coming, OT saints, Tribulation Saints.
I am not sure why he has them all divided like that. I presume he believes that those who are saved (Jews and Gentiles) during the Tribulation must enter the Millennial Kingdom with a glorified body. Then, since it is only "the bride" that is raptured, the OT saints must be accounted for somewhere else.
BTW, every NT saint raptured will have not taken of the mark of the beast.

Wait, how many resurrections are you espousing nowadays, anyways? Last I knew, it was 4 or 5. Are you guys up to seven now, so it can match the number of dispensations?

I'm also not sure why you think it imperative that we go to heaven and take seven years to get our horses and come back.

Because the Bible says so.

I demand a scripture reference for a timeline and location that you prescribe. Otherwise, it is nothing but foolish conjecture.

1Cor.3:11-15 is no conjecture. It is a heavenly scene, not an earthly one. It takes place before the Great White Throne Judgment, and before the marriage supper of the Lamb (reference already given). Otherwise how would the Bride be purified completely?

But, you completely ignored what I wrote about the MEETING in the air.

I won't continue discussing any further points until you address APANTESIN, and what I wrote about it.

If you respond with any topic other than APANTESIN, I will be finished here. We'll get back to an orderly discussion, without you ducking any of my points, or I won't play your game

It is a weak argument and one I have never heard before in all the years of my teaching on this subject. So let's examine it.
First the word is used only four times in the NT:
Mat.25:1,6; Acts 28:15; 1Thes. 4:17.
It simply means: to encounter or meet.

Acts 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
--No special meaning can be given to the word here. They simply went out to greet or meet Paul, to accompany him after meeting him.
You presented a very weak argument which I don't accept. It is more eisigesis than exegesis. You are reading into a word a meaning that is not there.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The word which we usually focus on here is "parousia."
From Vine's Word Study:

Together with them (ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς)
Ἅμα, at the same time, referring to the living. We that are alive shall simultaneously or one and all (comp. Rom_3:12) be caught up. Σὺν αὐτοῖς along with them, i.e., the dead. Thus ἅμα is to be const. with shall be caught up. The A.V. and Rev. are inaccurate. These are the important words as related to the disquietude of the Thessalonians.
Shall be caught up (ἁρπαγησόμεθα)
By a swift, resistless, divine energy. Comp. 2Co_12:2, 2Co_12:4; Act_8:39.
In the air (εἰς ἀέρα)
Rend. into the air, and const. with shall be caught up. Ἁὴρ the atmosphere with the clouds, as distinguished from αἰθὴρ the pure ether, which does not occur in N.T.
And so
After having met the Lord.