Rebel not.

[Cathode]

“Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.” Matt 23.

Faced with the corruption in Judaism, did Jesus teach to rebel against the Chair of Moses and interpret scripture for yourself? No.

The Chair of Moses had Authority, the High Priest even prophecied as they were plotting Jesus death.

Jesus taught people to do what they teach you but do not follow their behaviour.

This is why Protestantism was wrong from its inception, corruption is no grounds for rebellion, even if the leadership was as completely rotten as the Jewish leadership. They even accused Incarnate God to His Face putting Him on trial.

Jesus established Peter and The Apostles with the binding and loosing authority that the Jewish authorities had.
Jesus established The Chair of Peter to govern His Church.

 

[atpollard]

Was the Church wrong to stop worshiping at the Temple and offering the prescribed animal sacrifices?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Jesus established The Chair of Peter to govern His Church.

I know that you are not going to listen to me, but maybe someone else will.

Two points: {I have several, but here is only two.}

1. Look at this verse where the Catholic church gets the false idea of a papacy: Matthew 16:18 - "And I tell you, you are Peter [Πέτρος - petros] and on this rock [πέτρᾳ - petra] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You have "Peter" and this "rock". Two DIFFERENT Greek words.

Peter = "petros" - regular size or normal "rock".
Rock = "petra" = BOULDER

Two different things. Peter was congratulated by Christ for listening the Father who explained who Jesus was, BUT it's NOT upon Peter, but upon that HUGE, HUGE concept taught by the Father would the church be built. NOT upon Peter.

The church is built upon the factual understanding that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Not Peter.

2. If the church was built upon Peter, and Peter was now "the Chair", "the Vicar", "the Bishop of Rome' and the ROCK -petra], then why oh why did Peter stupidly say FIVE VERSES LATER that Jesus would not have to die? Jesus doesn't call Peter Satan, but rebukes Peter and says "Get behind me, Satan....." Five verse earlier, Peter was listening to the Father. Now, Peter is listening to Satan.

 

[canadyjd]

You are error because you don’t know or understand scripture, nor the power of God.

The “chair of Moses” was a place of honor for visiting officials in a synagogue.

God has given us scripture to test every doctrine. The RCC, formed in the 4th century when a pope forged a will of Emperor Constantine, has many false doctrines that are contrary to God’s Word, and are founded in paganism.

Peter himself told the religious leaders of his day to consider whether it seemed right to obey God or obey man.

That’s what I say to you now. For Protestants, it seems right to obey God, as revealed in His Word. The RCC has mixed the word of God with satanic writings that distort the truth.

We rebel against the demonic powers in the RCC and will never enslave ourselves to those false doctrines.

Peace to you

 

[Blank]

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

To say and do not is sin.
By likening the Papacy to this statement aren't you pointing out their fallibility?

 

[Cathode]

I know that you are not going to listen to me, but maybe someone else will.

Two points: {I have several, but here is only two.}

1. Look at this verse where the Catholic church gets the false idea of a papacy: Matthew 16:18 - "And I tell you, you are Peter [Πέτρος - petros] and on this rock [πέτρᾳ - petra] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You have "Peter" and this "rock". Two DIFFERENT Greek words.

Peter = "petros" - regular size or normal "rock".
Rock = "petra" = BOULDER

Two different things. Peter was congratulated by Christ for listening the Father who explained who Jesus was, BUT it's NOT upon Peter, but upon that HUGE, HUGE concept taught by the Father would the church be built. NOT upon Peter.

Jesus wasn’t speaking Greek. He was speaking Aramaic. Jesus didn’t say evna small stone, he said Kepha, large rock.
To write this down in Greek you have a problem because Greek has masculine and feminine delineation.
So even though the masculine petros, means small rock, Kepha in the Aramaic means great Rock.
But Peter had to be still addressed in the masculine because he is male.
Writing Petra would have been accurate to denote large Rock, but would have been like calling Peter Petrina a feminine name.

The church is built upon the factual understanding that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Not Peter.

2. If the church was built upon Peter, and Peter was now "the Chair", "the Vicar", "the Bishop of Rome' and the ROCK -petra], then why oh why did Peter stupidly say FIVE VERSES LATER that Jesus would not have to die? Jesus doesn't call Peter Satan, but rebukes Peter and says "Get behind me, Satan....." Five verse earlier, Peter was listening to the Father. Now, Peter is listening to Satan.

That’s right. Peter had pronounced the first foundational infallible statement of the Church regarding who Jesus was, revealed by The Father.
This wasn’t just Peters personal profession of Faith, this was God The Father Himself, The Highest Authority revealing to Peter who Jesus was definitively for all.

“ It was not flesh and blood that revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven “

How many other Apostles does Scripture say have direct Revelation from God The Father? None, only Peter.
They were all guided by The Holy Spirit, but nowhere is any other Apostle guided directly by The Eternal Father.

There is nothing more Rock foundational than revelation direct from The Eternal Father and Peter alone Spoke for The Father in Heaven, The Highest Authority.

Was this a one off thing? No.

“He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.” Acts 10

The Father in Heaven directly guided Peter again, this time on the important matter of receiving the Gentiles into the Church.

Peter has this gift of a hotline directly to The Father in Heaven to Infallibly guide and direct the Church.

Speaking of himself Peter is just a fallible man, but regarding the life and guidance of the Church and doctrine like who Jesus is, which is an important theological point to establish, Peter is the mouthpiece of God The Father.

From Peter will come the Infallible Rock surety of The Eternal Fathers pronouncement.

 

[Cathode]

To say and do not is sin.
By likening the Papacy to this statement aren't you pointing out their fallibility?

Infallibility is not impeccability, it doesn’t mean the person cannot sin. It means that they are guided to teach the truth, despite human weakness.

This is gift for the Church, not the individual in office.

It is so the sheep of Jesus flock can have rock surety in guidance and teaching.

 

[37818]

Matthew 23:8-10, . . . be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

 

[Cathode]

You are error because you don’t know or understand scripture, nor the power of God.

The “chair of Moses” was a place of honor for visiting officials in a synagogue.

No, it was much more than that.

“He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,” John 11:51.

The Chair of Moses was God’s visible Authority to guide and teach Israel, it had binding and loosing Authority over all Israelites.

Even though Caiaphas was a horrible, sinful man, God prophecied through him as high priest on the Chair of Moses.

That is why Jesus said to follow what they teach because they sit in the Chair of Moses, but do not do what they do, because they do not practice what they preach.

This is the beautiful way God still guarantees true guidance and teaching to his flock, even though the shepherds are bad men of themselves.

 

[Blank]

It is so the sheep of Jesus flock can have rock surety in guidance and teaching.

Is that why the Catholic Church is in disarray under Francis?

 

[Cathode]

Is that why the Catholic Church is in disarray under Francis?

Francis is nothing compared to some popes of the past, people have no idea , The Catholic Church survived them all.

The point is that every leader of the Church Old Covenant or New, is a sinner, but God’s guidance is not dependent on whether they are nice guys or not.

Caiaphas judging God to His Face being the most extreme example, still prophecied by the power of God while on the Chair of Moses.

I don’t think anyone on the Chair of Peter has behaved as badly Caiaphas on The Chair of Moses, abusing God directly to His Face.

 

[Cathode]

Matthew 23:8-10, . . . be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

“And he has appointed some with grace to be apostles, and some with grace to be prophets, and some with grace to be evangelists, and some with grace to be pastors, and some with grace to be teachers.”

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

This is not a blanket injunction, otherwise we couldn’t call our own fathers Father. This was in context of the Emperor wishing to be called Father God, or All Father as the Norse called Odin.

“And Stephen said: "Brothers and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,” Acts7:2

"Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you." Acts 22:1

“Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?” Heb 12:9

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

“ He who listens to you, listens to me “

If you listen and learn from the Apostles and their successors, you are listening and learning from Christ.

Paul tells Titus “ teach and reprove with all Authority, let no man despise you “, this is Christ’s Voice and Authority being passed on.

He who listened to Titus, listened to Christ.

 

[37818]

This is not a blanket injunction, otherwise we couldn’t call our own fathers Father. This was in context of the Emperor wishing to be called Father God, or All Father as the Norse called Odin.

“And Stephen said: "Brothers and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,” Acts7:2

"Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you." Acts 22:1

“Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?” Heb 12:9

Acts 7:2, "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; . . .
Luke 16:24, "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, . . .
1 John 2:13, " I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. . . .
Versus:
John 17:11, ". . . and I come to thee. Holy Father, . . .

You understand the difference for why Jesus taught in Matthew 23:7-10, "And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

 

[Blank]

Francis is nothing compared to some popes of the past, people have no idea , The Catholic Church survived them all.

The point is that every leader of the Church Old Covenant or New, is a sinner, but God’s guidance is not dependent on whether they are nice guys or not.

Caiaphas judging God to His Face being the most extreme example, still prophecied by the power of God while on the Chair of Moses.

I don’t think anyone on the Chair of Peter has behaved as badly Caiaphas on The Chair of Moses, abusing God directly to His Face.

So why is the Catholic Church in disarray under Francis?

 

[canadyjd]

No, it was much more than that.

“He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,” John 11:51.

The Chair of Moses was God’s visible Authority to guide and teach Israel, it had binding and loosing Authority over all Israelites.

Even though Caiaphas was a horrible, sinful man, God prophecied through him as high priest on the Chair of Moses.

That is why Jesus said to follow what they teach because they sit in the Chair of Moses, but do not do what they do, because they do not practice what they preach.

This is the beautiful way God still guarantees true guidance and teaching to his flock, even though the shepherds are bad men of themselves.

Again, you associate the “chair of Moses” with the office of the high priest. You are wrong. It was a seat of honor for visiting officials in a synagogue.

Right after Jesus spoke to Peter about building His church upon the “rock”, He referred to Peter as “Satan”. “Get behind Me Satan”. He told him he was setting his mind on the things of the world and not the things of God.

How fitting the RCC distorts this passage and claims Peter as the first “Pope” in Rome when there is absolutely no evidence Peter ever traveled to Rome.

Wow! Jesus called your first “Pope” Satan. I stand with Jesus. All of your “Popes” are disciples of Satan.

You don’t have the ability to critically think about anything to do with the RCC. You simply ignore all evidence to the contrary and regurgitate the propaganda.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Jesus wasn’t speaking Greek. He was speaking Aramaic. Jesus didn’t say evna small stone, he said Kepha, large rock.
To write this down in Greek you have a problem because Greek has masculine and feminine delineation.
So even though the masculine petros, means small rock, Kepha in the Aramaic means great Rock.
But Peter had to be still addressed in the masculine because he is male.
Writing Petra would have been accurate to denote large Rock, but would have been like calling Peter Petrina a feminine name.



That’s right. Peter had pronounced the first foundational infallible statement of the Church regarding who Jesus was, revealed by The Father.
This wasn’t just Peters personal profession of Faith, this was God The Father Himself, The Highest Authority revealing to Peter who Jesus was definitively for all.

“ It was not flesh and blood that revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven “

How many other Apostles does Scripture say have direct Revelation from God The Father? None, only Peter.
They were all guided by The Holy Spirit, but nowhere is any other Apostle guided directly by The Eternal Father.

There is nothing more Rock foundational than revelation direct from The Eternal Father and Peter alone Spoke for The Father in Heaven, The Highest Authority.

Was this a one off thing? No.

“He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.” Acts 10

The Father in Heaven directly guided Peter again, this time on the important matter of receiving the Gentiles into the Church.

Peter has this gift of a hotline directly to The Father in Heaven to Infallibly guide and direct the Church.

Speaking of himself Peter is just a fallible man, but regarding the life and guidance of the Church and doctrine like who Jesus is, which is an important theological point to establish, Peter is the mouthpiece of God The Father.

From Peter will come the Infallible Rock surety of The Eternal Fathers pronouncement.

Eamon Duffy, a Catholic historian, says there is nothing directly approaching a papal Authority in the pages of the New Testament. Mat_16:18-19 was never interpreted by the 1st century Church in terms of claims to preeminence by a non-existent monarchical Bishop of Rome or even later by the Apostolic fathers.

The French Roman Catholic llinois surveyed the writings of the church fathers to see what the early church said about Mat_16:18 {Peter the rock} did they say that this made him the Pope? He found 17 citations from church fathers who agreed that Matthew when he says the rock it's referring to Peter so 17 citations that make Peter the rock. Now they did not say that Peter was the Pope most of them don't even talk about that because it historically didn't exist yet but they did say that the phrase the rock referred to Peter. He found 16 citations that identify the rock as Christ so those are split 50-50. He found 8 that identified the rock as all of the disciples not just Peter but all the disciples and he found 44 citations that identified the rock as the confession that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God so the favorite interpretation of the Church Fathers is that the rock is the confession of trusting Christ as God so 80% of the time the Church Fathers disagree with the Roman Catholic position.

 

[37818]

@Cathode,
You understand the difference for why Jesus taught in Matthew 23:7-10, . . . .
So your denial of that is without excuse.

Acts 7:2, "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; . . .
Luke 16:24, "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, . . .
1 John 2:13, " I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. . . .
Versus:
John 17:11, ". . . and I come to thee. Holy Father, . . .

You understand the difference for why Jesus taught in Matthew 23:7-10, "And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

 

[37818]

Typical college dictionary definition for Holy Father, noun. Roman Catholic Church. a title of the pope.

 

[Cathode]

So why is the Catholic Church in disarray under Francis?

The real disarray is in Bible alone Protestantism, where each man subjugates scripture to his opinion and comes away with his own conflicting doctrines.

There is no greater example of religious disarray in the history of the world.

 

[Cathode]

@Cathode,
You understand the difference for why Jesus taught in Matthew 23:7-10, . . . .
So your denial of that is without excuse.

Not getting your point here.