Reconciled while enemies

[The Biblicist]

the bib



No, The Unregenerated Elect are never under the Wrath of God, for God's Wrath towards them has been propitiated by the Death of His Son !

Also, I have showed you what scripture states about the Elect while they are unregenerated and enemies, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So you repudiate Paul's interpretation of the "wrath of God" revealed from heaven according to his description in Romans 1:22-30?

So you repudiate Paul's description of God's wrath is revealed by being given over to worse and worse sins in Romans 1:22-30?

So you repudiate Paul's confirmation that "some" (1 Cor. 6:9-11) of the elect were such as those described under the wrath of God in Romans 1:22-30?

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

The elect are in need of subjective reconciliation because they are subjectively under condemnation.

Thats false teaching. They are in need of subjective reconciliation because they are sinners and without it and out of fellowship with God.

The elect are never condemned by God, Christ was condemned by God for them. Christ came in the Likeness of sinful flesh and condemned sin in the flesh. Rom 8:3

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That is, all of the Elects sins that they commit in the Flesh, was condemned in Christ, God imputed them all unto Him. He bare them all in His own Body on the Tree. 1 Pet 2:24

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And he was condemned for them all ! Now how can the Elect be condemned for them also ? God would not be Just in that . Now either you believe Christ acted as an Surety Substitute or you do not !

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

So you repudiate Paul's interpretation of the "wrath of God" revealed from heaven according to his description in Romans 1:22-30?

No, I reject that its revealed from heaven against the Elect. You reject that Christ's Death propitiated God's Law and Justice and Wrath in behalf of the Elect.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Thats false teaching. They are in need of subjective reconciliation because they are sinners and without it and out of fellowship with God.

How can they be even called "sinners" unless they have come under the condemnation of God's Law? God's law cannot call the righteous "sinners"?

The elect are never condemned by God, Christ was condemned by God for them. Christ came in the Likeness of sinful flesh and condemned sin in the flesh. Rom 8:3

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That is, all of the Elects sins that they commit in the Flesh, was condemned in Christ, God imputed them all unto Him. He bare them all in His own Body on the Tree. 1 Pet 2:24

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And he was condemned for them all ! Now how can the Elect be condemned for them also ? God would not be Just in that . Now either you believe Christ acted as an Surety Substitute or you do not !

You then quote passages that deal only with OBJECTIVE redemption in order to nullify scriptures that deal with SUBJECTIVE redemption when both are equally true.

Christ OBJECTIVELY reconciled the elect to God by the cross but did not SUBJECTIVELY reconcile the elect to God by the cross as that is not the work of Christ but the work of the Holy Spirit. Hence, Paul says "be ye reconciled" after talking about the reconciliation of Christ on the cross. Both are true.

The elect are SUBJECTIVELY CONDEMNED UNDER THE LAW simply because the OBJECTIVE provision of the cross has not been applied in their unregenerate condition. So they are condemned by the law and the proof is that they are called "enemies" - "while we were yet enemies" and "sinners" and all the TEMPORAL condemnations of sin were their SUBJECTIVE experience.

You simply do not know what you are talking about and I can see clearly you are incapable of being taught.

So my friend, I leave you to your heresies and I take my departure.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

How can they be even called "sinners"

Because they are, they sin..Why do you think Paul always says this to the saints Titus 1:4

To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Gal 6:16

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Why do they need Mercy ?

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



Because they are, they sin..Why do you think Paul always says this to the saints Titus 1:4

To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Gal 6:16

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Why do they need Mercy ?

The elect in their unregenerate condition were called "enemies" and yet "enemies" by the very nature of the term are those NOT RECONCILED to God.

 

[savedbymercy]

The elect in their unregenerate condition were called "enemies" and yet "enemies" by the very nature of the term are those NOT RECONCILED to God.

Yes they were enemies, but while being so, they were reconciled to God by the Death of His Son ! Rom 5:10, God was at peace with them..

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes they were enemies, but while being so, they were reconciled to God by the Death of His Son ! Rom 5:10, God was at peace with them..

Reconciliation is not one sided. There is no such thing as reconciliation while one side is at war or enemies! That is pure oxymoronic thinking.

Your problem is that you cannot distinguish between objective and subjective reconciliation nor between objective and subjective wrath and so you pit one against the other. Bye!

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

There is no such thing as reconciliation while one side is at war or enemies

Thats according to your philosophy, which I am not interested.

The Elect were reconciled to God , while they were enemies. Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

God was at peace with them, and received into His Favor, while they hated Him !

You discredit the Death of Christ and what it accomplished Godward for those He died for.

 

[savedbymercy]

He accomplished Reconciliation !

Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

He accomplished Reconciliation , that is, His Death ALONE has reconciled to God ALL for whom He died, that is precisely what the verse tells us. This reconciliation is Two Fold, it is objective, by which all the elect of God, of all time, by Christ's Death ALONE, have been reconciled to God, not that they were made reconcilable, but actually reconciled, a finished transaction, a done deal !

Can a person be reconciled to God by the Death of His Son and be a Unbeliever and at enmity with God by Nature ? Yes, of course. Paul in Rom 5:10 is stating to Believers, that WHEN or WHILE we were Enemies of God, even THEN, we had been Reconciled to God by the Death of His Son. You see when a sinner who Christ died for , and His Death had satisfied God's Law and Justice on their behalf, those sinners, who are born dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:5, who are born as OTHERS , by Nature Children of Wrath Eph 2:3, Who are born by nature Ungodly in their manner of life Rom 5:6 , All such differ from from all others who are born in the same condition, these have already objectively been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, and to all of them is the PROMISE GIVEN, that they shall be SAVED [ Subjective Reconciliation or Conversion which includes being given both Faith and Repentance] BY HIS LIFE !

To deny this subjective reconciliation to any for whom Christ died, is a denial of the Gospel, the Word of Reconciliation; And since it is obvious from other portions of scripture that everyone in the world without exception shall not be saved by His Life, then reason would tell us that the World in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to only those that actually Saved by His Life Rom 5:10. So the conclusion is this, If anyone in that world of 2 Cor 5:19 is not saved by Christ's Life as promised in Rom 5:10b, then the scripture has been proven to be false, and Paul and the other Apostles are found to be False Witnesses ! However, I am absolutely SURE that the Scripture is True and that the Christ I witness of did actually accomplish and effected reconciliation to God for all whom He died, and not one shall be Lost..

 

[DaChaser1]

bib



Thats according to your philosophy, which I am not interested.

The Elect were reconciled to God , while they were enemies. Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

God was at peace with them, and received into His Favor, while they hated Him !

You discredit the Death of Christ and what it accomplished Godward for those He died for.

when is this reconciled state obtained by the elect?

At the time of death of Christ, when the Church was birthed into existence, or at the time of faith being placed in Jesus, after God has effectually applied his Grace unto the elect in order to get them saved?

 

[savedbymercy]

da

when is this reconciled state obtained by the elect?

Objectively, its nothing for them to obtain, its an accomplished fact by the Benefit of the Death of Christ. Scripture says they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ! What can be more plainer than that ?

 

[DaChaser1]

da



Objectively, its nothing for them to obtain, its an accomplished fact by the Benefit of the Death of Christ. Scripture says they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ! What can be more plainer than that ?

jesus died for all, but ONLY WHEN God applies that grace effectual unto His elect towards their spiritual behalf and actually saves them are they reconciled back to God!

 

[savedbymercy]

da

jesus died for all,

Uh, No He did not, not the Jesus of scripture. Because if He did all would be saved by His Life.

The scripture is plain here that Jesus Christ reconciled to God objectively all for whom He died Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now, everyone reconciled to God by Christ's Death, even while they are unbelievers, enemies, it is promised that they shall be saved by His Life. Now unless you believe in universalism, which is also heresy, then Christ could have not died for all without exception, since all for whom He died shall be saved, that is a promise !

 

[DaChaser1]

da



Uh, No He did not, not the Jesus of scripture. Because if He did all would be saved by His Life.

The scripture is plain here that Jesus Christ reconciled to God objectively all for whom He died Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now, everyone reconciled to God by Christ's Death, even while they are unbelievers, enemies, it is promised that they shall be saved by His Life. Now unless you believe in universalism, which is also heresy, then Christ could have not died for all without exception, since all for whom He died shall be saved, that is a promise !

depends upon how one define "died for all"

IF one means died to actual pay for the sin death for all sinners, would be wrong as you stated...

IF one means that His death had suffieceny in its worth to be able to save all sinners, that would be true, but that ONLY those who were elected out by God would receive its benefits and actually had Him die for thir sins in their place!

 

[savedbymercy]

da

depends upon how one define "died for all"

Its no problem with me. Scripture says that those Christ died for were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, they were reconciled scripture says even while they were enemies, unbelievers, unregenerated ! Says it right here Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

Then Paul made a promise to these reconciled unregenerated, enemies. The promise to THEM is this:

much more, being reconciled[ While enemies], we shall be saved by his life.

Now, we know the whole world without exception will not be saved, so then Rom 5:10 applies to God's Elect. We know also the whole world without exception could not have been reconciled to God !

 

[savedbymercy]

The word of reconciliation !

God has reconciled the Church, the Body of Christ, by Jesus Christ. This is first objectively, and then it is applied subjectively to each one that has been objectively reconciled. Now objective reconciliation for all whom Christ died is a Gospel Truth even before the beneficiary believes it or experiences it subjectively ! Even when they [ the beneficiaries] are in themselves by nature, enemies to God, and Children of wrath, definitely deserving of it as others, they have been reconciled to God, God reconciled them to Himself, not by their freewill, not by their faith, not by anything they did, because they are enemies, but solely by Jesus Christ, this same blessed Truth is taught in Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

As it is proclaimed by Paul here, those enemies which have been objectively reconciled, SHALL BE SAVED by His Life ! Saved here means simply subjective reconciliation or conversion !

Now this is part of the word of reconciliation, the Gospel !

 

[savedbymercy]

The word of reconciliation !



Secondly, Paul says : And has given[not offered] to us [The church] the ministry of reconciliation, "to wit" Who is the us ?

2 Cor 5:18-19

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Well of course it means primarily the Apostles, but not exclusively, but to the Church itself, the Body of Christ, for it is composed of many different members for the purpose of ministry or the work of the ministry Eph 4:11-13


11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we[The Body of Christ] all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Look at vs 12 " The work of the ministry" the same Ministry of Reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:18 !

A very important truth is here highlighted, and that is, The Gospel Ministry was never to go out and try to win the whole world to Christ, but strictly and distinctly for the gathering in of the unconverted Body of Christ, the Elect !

 

[savedbymercy]

Now how was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself ?

To answer this is to give a valuable doctrine of the Gospel ! It was by not imputing to this world, their sins unto them ! Non Imputation is a Gospel Truth that must be preached, Paul preached it. Scripture says something else about Non Imputation Ps 32:1-2

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Paul quotes this in Rom 4:6-8

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

God does not impute iniquity to their charge Ps 32:2 ! So they can never be called by God this Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Nor will they ever hear this Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because God never charged them with Iniquity, but laid them upon their Surety Isa 53:6

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That world is blessed in 2 Cor 5:19, because it's iniquity was not imputed to it's Charge, but it was imputed to Christ charge.

Now does one have to be a believer in order for Christ to have died for them ? No ! If Christ died for people who were not born until the 1950's, and their iniquities had been laid upon Christ in 33 ad, were they believers in 33 ad also ? No they were not. Were their sins laid to Christ charge then in 33 ad before they were born ? Yes of course or how else did Christ die for their sins if they had not been charged unto Him ??? Now if they had been Charged to Christ in 33 ad, Did God charge them also upon them when they were born in the 1950's ? The answer is no !

 

[DHK]

SBM,
This thread is from February.
You have posted four consecutive posts without any interaction.
Furthermore you are posting to a person that cannot interact with you because he is banned. Please post on those threads that are current.