Reformed Salvation

[The Archangel]

I do however believe, that when God created humans, He made them with the ability of repenting and believing.

The problem in this thinking is that what humans were at creation they are no longer as a result of the fall. It does not follow that humans were created with an ability to repent when, before the fall, there was no need of repentance.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

If SBG is starting to read Calvin and Watson he might just come around. The one thing I have honestly never heard a Calvinist propose is that there has ever been anyone lost who would have, if given a chance, turn to God on their own. That is constantly charged against Calvinism but I have never come across it taught anywhere.

Think that hell is God granting the lost final wish, as those who despised God on earth would see heaven as their hell!

 

[Yeshua1]

The reformers taught that repentance is required for salvation. They also taught that it is part of God's grace to us. (We are granted repentance). What they never taught was that repentance (or faith) was something of a meritorious thing that YOU bring to the table on your own.
Different Bible versus and different theologians have differing views on the exact order of salvation but the difference really comes down to one question - do you bring the required repentance or belief to God or is it of God from the start. I find the Calvinistic theology confusing sometimes but I find the Arminian theology flat out wrong and I do fully understand it.

Is salvation all of God and His grace, or does He have us cooperate in that saving process?

 

[Yeshua1]

says you and your theology. the Bible cleraly says in Titus 3:5, that REGENERATION is SALVATION, one and the same thing.

No, precedes receiving Jesus as Lord!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The problem in this thinking is that what humans were at creation they are no longer as a result of the fall. It does not follow that humans were created with an ability to repent when, before the fall, there was no need of repentance.

The Archangel

are you saying that God did not know that mankind would rebel against Him, and therefore have Created them with this ability?

How about the fact, that God Created Adam and Eve perfect, and yet they CHOSE to disobey Him and sin? Where did they get this from?

You are trying to argue from silence and from that we don't really understand, like the origin of evil/sin

 

[Yeshua1]

are you saying that God did not know that mankind would rebel against Him, and therefore have Created them with this ability?

How about the fact, that God Created Adam and Eve perfect, and yet they CHOSE to disobey Him and sin? Where did they get this from?

You are trying to argue from silence and from that we don't really understand, like the origin of evil/sin

Nothing happened outside of the will and plan of God, and Adam and all save Lord Jesus born with a sin nature, and no longer "fully free to choose"

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, precedes receiving Jesus as Lord!

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit

"Regeneration" is from the Greek, παλιγγενεσία, which is litearlly BORN AGAIN

So, being SAVED is BORIN AGAIN (REGENERATION).

 

[SavedByGrace]

Nothing happened outside of the will and plan of God, and Adam and all save Lord Jesus born with a sin nature, and no longer "fully free to choose"

God Created Adam and Eve perfect, right? But, He also gave them the WILL to disobey Him, because they DID! Are you saying that this CHOOSING to LISTEN to the devil, and DISOBEY God, came from someone/thing other than God?

 

[AustinC]

WRONG again! It is YOU that I question as YOU don't understand what the Bible says!

No, you actually question God, but you do not fathom you are doing so.
I understand that God very clearly tells us that he elects to have mercy on whom he wills and to harden whom he wills.
Is that my theology or is that God speaking?
Romans 9:18
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

 

[The Archangel]

are you saying that God did not know that mankind would rebel against Him, and therefore have Created them with this ability?

Since you later will bring up the so-called "argument from silence," it must be pointed out that you are making an argument from silence here.

How about the fact, that God Created Adam and Eve perfect, and yet they CHOSE to disobey Him and sin? Where did they get this from?

Adam and Eve could have obeyed or disobeyed. They disobeyed. Their disobedience--which was rebellion--was sin. Sin is not its own thing; sin is the absence of obedience to God. Sin happened as a result of disobedience and, thus, "entered the world."

You are trying to argue from silence and from that we don't really understand, like the origin of evil/sin

Paul is not silent on the origin of sin and evil.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

God Created Adam and Eve perfect, right? But, He also gave them the WILL to disobey Him, because they DID! Are you saying that this CHOOSING to LISTEN to the devil, and DISOBEY God, came from someone/thing other than God?

Are you asking here if God caused them to fall?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Since you later will bring up the so-called "argument from silence," it must be pointed out that you are making an argument from silence here.



Adam and Eve could have obeyed or disobeyed. They disobeyed. Their disobedience--which was rebellion--was sin. Sin is not its own thing; sin is the absence of obedience to God. Sin happened as a result of disobedience and, thus, "entered the world."



Paul is not silent on the origin of sin and evil.

The Archangel

So, even though God Created Adam and Eve perfect, He nonetheless gave them the ability to disobey and sin againt Him. Do you agree with this?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Are you asking here if God caused them to fall?

No, some of the Reformed Confessions say this.

 

[AustinC]

says you and your theology. the Bible cleraly says in Titus 3:5, that REGENERATION is SALVATION, one and the same thing.

Let's look at Titus 3:4-7.
But—“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior. Because of his grace he declared us righteous and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life.”
Notice that Paul agrees with what he said in Romans 9:18.
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

sbg, it's all God's choice and God's work. Stop trying to wrestle salvation away from God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, you actually question God, but you do not fathom you are doing so.
I understand that God very clearly tells us that he elects to have mercy on whom he wills and to harden whom he wills.
Is that my theology or is that God speaking?
Romans 9:18
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Read Romans 11:32 as well, "For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all". Both uses of ALL in the Greek, mean the same, "the whole" sum total of the human race, both Jews and Gentiles. If you are not the one, then you are the other. so, the entire human race is meant.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, some of the Reformed Confessions say this.

They state that God caused them to fall?

 

[SavedByGrace]

sbg, it's all God's choice and God's work. Stop trying to wrestle salvation away from God

You still fail to grasp what the Bible says. I have said many times, even the reformed theologins whom I have quoted in the OP, DISAGREE with your theology! I rest my case.

 

[SavedByGrace]

They state that God caused them to fall?

This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory

PURPOSED to ORDER the fall to His Glory. very clearly says that God CAUSED the fall!

 

[SavedByGrace]

KNOWING is not the same as CAUSING!

I might KNOW that my best friend will kill someone, this does not mean that I CAUSED him to do it!

 

[AustinC]

Read Romans 11:32 as well, "For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all". Both uses of ALL in the Greek, mean the same, "the whole" sum total of the human race, both Jews and Gentiles. If you are not the one, then you are the other. so, the entire human race is meant.

Let's look at Paul's argument in Romans 11. You will see it's not the entire human race.
Romans 11:26-32
And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness. And this is my covenant with them, that I will take away their sins.” Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Tell me why you believe in universalism in the one verse you quoted. You likely don't realize you are arguing for universalism (all humanity being redeemed), but you actually are making such an argument by taking half of a sentence and turning it into something you want rather than trusting all that God tells you.

Again, you recoil at God having the Supreme authority to have mercy on whom he wills and harden whom he wills.
"Why do you, oh man, talk back to God?" Paul asks you that very question in Romans 9. sbg, why do you fight against the word of God?