Reformers' interpretations of the AntiChrist

[Walpole]

What washed the sins of paul was calling on Name of Jesus, not getting dunked!

But tell me why I should believe you and not the Scriptures? Here again are the words of Ananias to Paul. And, keep in mind Jesus instructed Paul to go to Damascus and meet with Ananias...

Acts 22:16 ---> "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."


Why should I reject the explicit words of Scripture in favor of your teaching? Can you make a compelling case why I should believe you over the Scripture?

 

[AustinC]

Then why would he need to be baptized to have his sins forgiven?

He didn't have his sins forgiven by water baptism. He had his sins forgiven when he confessed his sins to God. (1 John 1:9)

 

[AustinC]

But tell me why I should believe you and not the Scriptures? Here again are the words of Ananias to Paul. And, keep in mind Jesus instructed Paul to go to Damascus and meet with Ananias...

Acts 22:16 ---> "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."


Why should I reject the explicit words of Scripture in favor of your teaching? Can you make a compelling case why I should believe you over the Scripture?

You ignore what Ananias said before this.

Acts 22:14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth;

God made Paul alive with Christ when he met Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul was confessing his sins in repentance and receiving forgiveness.
Your quote shows that water baptism is indeed symbolic as it testifies to the truth that God has washed away our sins.

 

[Walpole]

You ignore what Ananias said before this.

Acts 22:14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth;

God made Paul alive with Christ when he met Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul was confessing his sins in repentance and receiving forgiveness.
Your quote shows that water baptism is indeed symbolic as it testifies to the truth that God has washed away our sins.

You just destroyed your own argument. For if Paul was already forgiven the moment he believed, then Ananias was in error when he told him to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

 

[Walpole]

He didn't have his sins forgiven by water baptism. He had his sins forgiven when he confessed his sins to God. (1 John 1:9)

You just torpedoed your own argument. If Paul was already forgiven the moment he believed, then Ananias was in error when he told him to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Recall Jesus instructed Paul to see Ananias in Damascus. Your position renders Jesus instructing Paul to receive erroneous instruction from Ananias.

 

[Walpole]

Too good not to share with the anabaptists here...

--->

 

[AustinC]

You just destroyed your own argument. For if Paul was already forgiven the moment he believed, then Ananias was in error when he told him to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

He didn't say "be baptized to have your sins removed." You are forcing your interpretation upon the text.
Pastor John Piper has an excellent response to the question surrounding your verse.

Then, we go to the relevant text in Acts that the questioner raised, Acts 22:16: “Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins . . .” Now, if you stopped right there, you’d say, “Well, there it is. The water is the forgiving agent.” But that’s not where you stop. It says, “Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.” The sense I think is the same. Baptism is the outward expression of calling on the name of the Lord in faith. It’s not the water that effects our justification or union with Christ. The water is a picture of the cleansing, but the faith in the heart, the call on the Lord from faith, is what unites us and forgives us.

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

 

[Walpole]

He didn't say "be baptized to have your sins removed." You are forcing your interpretation upon the text.

You are forcing your interpretation out of the text. Here again is Ananias’ instruction to Paul...

Acts 22:16 ---> "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Once again, if Paul’s sins were washed away when he believed, then Ananias, and hence Jesus for telling Paul to seek him out, was in error.

Pastor John Piper has an excellent response to the question surrounding your verse.

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

You can have John Piper, I’ll take Jesus, Peter and Paul.

 

[AustinC]

You are forcing your interpretation out of the text. Here again is Ananias’ instruction to Paul...

Acts 22:16 ---> "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Once again, if Paul’s sins were washed away when he believed, then Ananias, and hence Jesus for telling Paul to seek him out, was in error.





You can have John Piper, I’ll take Jesus, Peter and Paul.

Such a foolish and prideful thing to think you have interpreted God's word with greater accuracy that a Godly scholar who has studied the text of scripture at a far deeper level than you or I could ever study.

You aren't taking Jesus, Peter and Paul. You are taking SELF as the supreme ruler.

 

[Adonia]

Such a foolish and prideful thing to think you have interpreted God's word with greater accuracy that a Godly scholar who has studied the text of scripture at a far deeper level than you or I could ever study.

You know, I would agree on what he said that: "Faith precedes baptism". Yes, faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ is the first thing the believer needs to have and from that point on it is up to the believer to actively participate in the salvation process.

Our salvation cannot happen without us adhering to the plan of God, of listening to and following the teachings of Jesus Christ. The problem between us lies in the different way our respective faith traditions interpret the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Walpole]

Such a foolish and prideful thing to think you have interpreted God's word with greater accuracy that a Godly scholar who has studied the text of scripture at a far deeper level than you or I could ever study.

You aren't taking Jesus, Peter and Paul. You are taking SELF as the supreme ruler.

It's such a foolish and prideful thing to think you can interpret away the plain words of Scripture in lieu of an interpretation by a scholar.

Acts 22:16 ---> "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Once again, if Paul's sins were washed away when he believed, then the instruction of Ananias (and Jesus who directed Paul to seek out Ananias in Damascus) is absurd at best, erroneous at worst.

Trust Jesus, Peter and Paul and not thy self or your scholar. Believe God's word.

 

[AustinC]

You know, I would agree on what he said that: "Faith precedes baptism". Yes, faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ is the first thing the believer needs to have and from that point on it is up to the believer to actively participate in the salvation process.

Our salvation cannot happen without us adhering to the plan of God, of listening to and following the teachings of Jesus Christ. The problem between us lies in the different way our respective faith traditions interpret the Holy Scriptures.

So, you're saying God is helpless to save without our consent?

 

[AustinC]

It's such a foolish and prideful thing to think you can interpret away the plain words of Scripture in lieu of an interpretation by a scholar.

Acts 22:16 ---> "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Once again, if Paul's sins were washed away when he believed, then the instruction of Ananias (and Jesus who directed Paul to seek out Ananias in Damascus) is absurd at best, erroneous at worst.

Trust Jesus, Peter and Paul and not thy self or your scholar. Believe God's word.

I trust the entire word of God, which is why I know you're wrong. Scripture interprets scripture.

 

[Walpole]

So, you're saying God is helpless to save without our consent?

"Seek", "believe", "have faith", "love one another", "forgive", "be baptized", "obey the commandments" etc. etc. are all things God asks MAN to do. He doesn't compel.

I have found this is a good illustration of the difference between the God of Calvinism versus the God of Christianity...

Here is Calvin's God:

And here is the God of Christianity:

 

[Walpole]

I trust the entire word of God, which is why I know you're wrong. Scripture interprets scripture.

You are interpreting away the plain text of the Scripture. Your "interpretation" is demonstrably fallacious because if Paul's sins were washed away the moment he converted, then Jesus misled him by directing him to Ananias, who was thus in error.

 

[Adonia]

So, you're saying God is helpless to save without our consent?

I thought what I said was pretty clear in that I acknowledge what the good pastor is saying, that having faith comes first - before anything else.

Perhaps you could be a bit clearer on what you mean by your question.

 

[Adonia]

I trust the entire word of God, which is why I know you're wrong. Scripture interprets scripture.

If what you say is true, then there would have been no need for the Church here on earth and men (it's leaders) to discern the Holy writings.

In your case, you would not need a Pastor to teach you what your faith tradition has come up with. John Smyth would have been just another believer, not one who started his own sect, with it's own doctrines, and it's own adherents.

 

[AustinC]

"Seek", "believe", "have faith", "love one another", "forgive", "be baptized", "obey the commandments" etc. etc. are all things God asks MAN to do. He doesn't compel.

I have found this is a good illustration of the difference between the God of Calvinism versus the God of Christianity...

Here is Calvin's God:

And here is the God of Christianity:

A painting of a white man knocking at an 18th century door is the God of Christianity? Well, perhaps that's your god. It's certainly not the God of the Bible.

Luke 12:49-53 “I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

 

[AustinC]

You are interpreting away the plain text of the Scripture. Your "interpretation" is demonstrably fallacious because if Paul's sins were washed away the moment he converted, then Jesus misled him by directing him to Ananias, who was thus in error.

Scripture interprets scripture. Therefore your position cannot be correct.

 

[utilyan]

So, you're saying God is helpless to save without our consent?

You are saying God can't win a checkers unless he moves your pieces too.

The entire book of Job deals with this. The accusation thrown by the devil Is Job is only faithful because he is manipulated to be. Never mind blessings and happy times to BUY a person's love with good fortune, but to down right force it would mean the devil is the victor of the book of Job. The devil would laugh of course he is faithful you have forced him so like a robot.

In fact in a full manipulation that means you COULDN'T be trusted at all.