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Regeneration before faith can it be proven?

Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MB said:
Before I answer this you need to read 2nd peter 1:10
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
We need to make our calling and election sure. Calvinist believe it to never fails to give them Salvation.If this were true then you wouldn't have to make it sure
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You really need to learn what context is. Another cherry-picked verse out of context.

MB said:
You asked me to read the whole chapter and it made no difference. John 12:32 still says what it says in or out of text This is what you can't deal with
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Of course it makes a difference.

MB said:
Do you think your self to be in charge? hehehehehe.
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What mature person debates with "hehehehehe"?

MB said:
This also is clear;
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
None of it is individual. and not once is this choosing for Salvation. The inclusion of the Gentiles was not specific as individuals but as a whole. Read it again because when you get to the parts that make it cooperate the light blinds you to the facts.
The end of chapter 11 is definitly not speaking about individuals.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
MB
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So there were not individuals chosen out of Israel in chapter 11? Good luck arguing that point.
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
MB said:
One thing for certain you are wasting your breath. Read the book of Romans and then read the chapter of Gen. 25. You won't do it because you are convinced you already know it all. The choosing of Jacob was a choosing of a nation not any particular individual.
MB
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Really?
Jacob, the individual, wasn't chosen? Only a future nation was chosen?
I would argue that the entire story of Jacob in Genesis is about a wicked child whom God graciously chose, despite his wickedness.
Certainly a nation comes from Jacobs lineage and specifically, a promised Redeemer comes from Jacob's lineage, which establishes an eternal Kingdom. But, Jacob is most certainly chosen as an individual as well.
Why are you so bent on trying to run around this truth? Is it because you refuse to give up the theology you have created?
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
Really?
Jacob, the individual, wasn't chosen? Only a future nation was chosen?
I would argue that the entire story of Jacob in Genesis is about a wicked child whom God graciously chose, despite his wickedness.
Certainly a nation comes from Jacobs lineage and specifically, a promised Redeemer comes from Jacob's lineage, which establishes an eternal Kingdom. But, Jacob is most certainly chosen as an individual as well.
Why are you so bent on trying to run around this truth? Is it because you refuse to give up the theology you have created?
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He, doesn't know what he is talking about, as usual.
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
Really?
Jacob, the individual, wasn't chosen? Only a future nation was chosen?
I would argue that the entire story of Jacob in Genesis is about a wicked child whom God graciously chose, despite his wickedness.
Certainly a nation comes from Jacobs lineage and specifically, a promised Redeemer comes from Jacob's lineage, which establishes an eternal Kingdom. But, Jacob is most certainly chosen as an individual as well.
Why are you so bent on trying to run around this truth? Is it because you refuse to give up the theology you have created?
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You like David are ignorant of the scriptures. You read in to it what it does not support.
This is not individual.
Gen 25:21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Gen 25:24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
Gen 25:25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
Gen 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.
No where here is this choosing individual. Nor in romans 9 is it ever shown as individual Show me what makes you think this is individual? The embolded above makes it cooperate. This is settled you and David have lost.
MB
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
MB said:
You like David are ignorant of the scriptures. You read in to it what it does not support.
This is not individual.
Gen 25:21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Gen 25:24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
Gen 25:25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
Gen 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.
No where here is this choosing individual. Nor in romans 9 is it ever shown as individual Show me what makes you think this is individual? The embolded above makes it cooperate. This is settled you and David have lost.
MB
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You desire to have two "nations" being born, as though two literal nations came out of Rebecca's womb. Are you incapable of recognizing the foretelling of God in the individual children who, at birth, were not nations, but were individual humans?
Notice, after the birth, scripture says "When the boys grew up..." It doesn't say "When the nation's grew up..."
Notice as well, in your quote, it says "two people's from within you shall be divided." Those two people are the person's of Esau and Jacob.
No matter how you slice it, Jacob is chosen and Esau is rejected.
I can see you will die holding onto your image. I will let you go.
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
You desire to have two "nations" being born, as though two literal nations came out of Rebecca's womb. Are you incapable of recognizing the foretelling of God in the individual children who, at birth, were not nations, but were individual humans?
Notice, after the birth, scripture says "When the boys grew up..." It doesn't say "When the nation's grew up..."
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God told Rebecca there were two nations in her womb.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
What really get's me is you take at your convenience what you want to believe. You believe we were all in Adam when Adam sinned, but you willnot accept that all Israel was in Jacob..when God chose unto Him Self a people. This choosing was not unto Salvation as you claim it is for you.

Particular said:
Notice as well, in your quote, it says "two people's from within you shall be divided." Those two people are the person's of Esau and Jacob.
No matter how you slice it, Jacob is chosen and Esau is rejected.
I can see you will die holding onto your image. I will let you go
.
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What can I say you can't pull the wool over my eyes. My faith will never waver. Did you really think you could change my mind and beliefs with your nonsense Calvinism? There simply is no such thing as individual election.
MB
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
davidtaylorjr said:
Trust me, I am not ignorant of the Scriptures. However, you show you can't even engage in basic Bible study much less advanced theology.
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Why don't you compare your self with someone else?
Bible study is held in my home. Advanced theology you wouldn't even know where to begin. What can I say your a Calvinist and ignorant of the scriptures. You claim your not a Calvinist yet you hold to all the doctrines of Calvinism. This is dishonesty. You obviously don't want the baggage of Calvin hanging around neck. All most, all Calvinist see them selves as advanced theologians. Believe me you are not advanced. You want people to think you know what you are talking about but you don't and it is obvious. Your comments are always worthless.
MB
 
P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Particular said:
Really?
Jacob, the individual, wasn't chosen? Only a future nation was chosen?
I would argue that the entire story of Jacob in Genesis is about a wicked child whom God graciously chose, despite his wickedness.
Certainly a nation comes from Jacobs lineage and specifically, a promised Redeemer comes from Jacob's lineage, which establishes an eternal Kingdom. But, Jacob is most certainly chosen as an individual as well.
Why are you so bent on trying to run around this truth? Is it because you refuse to give up the theology you have created?
Click to expand...


Why was Jacob the chosen one and therefore, a nation, through Jacob?

Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Who was the end result of all that begetting?

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. ----------------------------
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
percho said:
Why was Jacob the chosen one and therefore, a nation, through Jacob?

Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Who was the end result of all that begetting?

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. ----------------------------
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All elect are heirs of the promise. This has been true from Adam and Eve and onward. God has always saved by graciously choosing his sheep.
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
davidtaylorjr said:
No. We did not physically sit under the teaching of Christ Himself. It is not the same thing.
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david, there is a tendency today to imagine a degree from an accredited institution makes one a deeper theologian. This isn't true. It makes that person better read in theology books and just well read enough to think he is smart. But, the best theologians I have met are those who have allowed God's word to sink deep when the storm and waves crash in.
I'll take an illiterate man of faith who has fought the good fight over a highly trained man who has never had to battle in the storm.
 
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