Regeneration or Conversion?

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
You believe that, yet do not believe that we are made in the image of God? For, If we are in the image of God then we have the same freedom of will that God has, we simply do not have divine will.

Lost or saved we possess the same characteristics of will! There is no switch that God turns turns on when He saves us that gives us 'freewill'. What He does is set us free from the bondage and confinement of the prison walls of sin. That however, does not change the characteristics of our will! We pass from the condemnation of unbelief into life eternal through belief. Our will, the capability, is not changed, but our desires are. Our self centered passions become subdued and eventually replaced by a passion for Jesus and his work. We no longer face the second death, because now we will appear before the judgment throne of God as a person of faith in God's only Begotten Son, thus there can be no condemnation for us. God's son atoned for the sins of the whole world, so they cannot be held against us.

The unsaved, whose sins are atoned for too, will appear before the Throne of God, but because of their unbelief they come to the Throne condemned already, Just as Jesus said in John 3:18. Their sentence is that of being cast into the lake of fire.

You believe that, yet do not believe that we are made in the image of God? For, If we are in the image of God then we have the same freedom of will that God has, we simply do not have divine will.

The freedom of the will is non-existent in natural man. We do not have divine will, correct, but to say we have the same freedom God has, then why did God need to send his only Begotten Son as a kinsman redeemer? We had no need of the death of the lamb of God all we should have just used the freedom of God that we possess and just be so free.

Lost or saved we possess the same characteristics of will! There is no switch that God turns turns on when He saves us that gives us 'freewill'. What He does is set us free from the bondage and confinement of the prison walls of sin.

CONTRADICTION

That however, does not change the characteristics of our will! We pass from the condemnation of unbelief into life eternal through belief. Our will, the capability, is not changed, but our desires are. Our self centered passions become subdued and eventually replaced by a passion for Jesus and his work. We no longer face the second death, because now we will appear before the judgment throne of God as a person of faith in God's only Begotten Son, thus there can be no condemnation for us. God's son atoned for the sins of the whole world, so they cannot be held against us.

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• our desires are</font>
• Our self centered passions</font>
• become subdued</font>
• and eventually replaced by a passion for Jesus and his work.</font>

All contradict past posts you have made stating that man's will is free, if his will is free there are no contrary desires to Christ's will; no self-centered passions, nothing to subdue (being already in line with God's will), and nothing to replace.

We no longer face the second death, because now we will appear before the judgment throne of God as a person of faith in God's only Begotten Son, thus there can be no condemnation for us. God's son atoned for the sins of the whole world, so they cannot be held against us.

We no longer face the second death, because now we will appear before the judgment throne of God as a person of faith in God's only Begotten Son, thus there can be no condemnation for us.

In the past you have posted that men can become unbelievers and then again face this condemnation.

God's son atoned for the sins of the whole world, so they cannot be held against us.

For this statement to be true then all men shall be saved; for all sin, including unbelief would be atoned for by God's Son.

This is why I remain firmly a believer and teacher and preacher of God's Sovereign Grace where there is no contradictions to be found.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew]

The freedom of the will is non-existent in natural man. We do not have divine will, correct, but to say we have the same freedom God has, then why did God need to send his only Begotten Son as a kinsman redeemer? We had no need of the death of the lamb of God all we should have just used the freedom of God that we possess and just be so free.

You misunderstand. I did not say that we have the same freedom that God has! I said we do not have divine will! We are made in the image of God to have a will, if God's will is free, man's will is free. If not so, then we are not made in the image of God!

I said that saved or lost we have the same will, there is no switch that gets thrown during conversion (regeneration) that changes the will from unfree to free.

 

[Frogman]

The divine will is what is necessary in order for us to have the mind of Christ; the divine will is what is necessary in order that we possess a righteousness exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees.

Yelsew, If you know anything about human nature you know that you are claiming here more for man that the 'image' of God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lost or saved we possess the same characteristics of will! There is no switch that God turns turns on when He saves us that gives us 'freewill'. What He does is set us free from the bondage and confinement of the prison walls of sin.

CONTRADICTION</font>[/QUOTE]In you mind only!

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lost or saved we possess the same characteristics of will! There is no switch that God turns turns on when He saves us that gives us 'freewill'. What He does is set us free from the bondage and confinement of the prison walls of sin.

CONTRADICTION</font>[/QUOTE]In you mind only! </font>[/QUOTE]What is the need of the new creature???? Your teaching is not even in the bounds of possible scripture, not even in the apochrypha.

How do you figure we are released as if from a prison? if our will is so utterly free?

Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God's son atoned for the sins of the whole world, so they cannot be held against us.

For this statement to be true then all men shall be saved; for all sin, including unbelief would be atoned for by God's Son.</font>[/QUOTE]You say this because you believe that atonement is what saves. Scriptures say that it is FAITH that saves. Unbelief or lack of faith, in my opinion, is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the one unforgiveable sin. So the unbeliever has no defense when before the Judgment Throne of God. Therefore, that which saves is not atonement, but rather FAITH. For those without faith in Jesus Christ are cast into the lake of fire.

I've posted here the definition of Atonement for your consideration.

atonement, n.
1. satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2. (sometimes cap.) Theol. the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.

What separated man from God for which reconciliation is required? Sin. What does Jesus' death on the cross do? It reconciles man to God by paying the price for sin. Since scriptures say that Jesus' death is the atonement for the sins of the world, then the sins of the world are paid for, and man is not held accountable for them.

That leaves only the matter of faith, and Jesus said, whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life. Perishing is described in Revelation 20 as the second death or the being cast into the lake of fire.

Does that mean then that once we come to faith that we can keep on sinning all the more? Paul answered that! Besides how often do you want to crucify Jesus? Every time you sin it is tantamount to sending Jesus once again to the cross. Furthermore, we are known by our actions, the fruit we produce. If we go on sinning, we are no different than the unbeliever, and there is no evidence that Jesus did anything for us.

 

[Yelsew]

How do you figure we are released as if from a prison? if our will is so utterly free?

Do you think that those in prison do not act according to their free will? Of course they do! That is why there are murders, rapes, frauds, etc. that abound behind prison walls. The free will of the prisoners simply adapts to its environment. Spiritual conversions take place behind those same walls, and sinners become saints, many for real, and some as an act of fraud.

The walls of sin do not keep the sinner from exercising his/her free will wherever they may be. It is the same characteristics of human will that operate for the sinner and the saint alike. The difference is the desires that one possesses in both conditions. The sinner desires to sin in accordance with self, while the saint has a higher calling for which to exercise his/her free will. So again, the characteristics of will operate equally well in either, and any, environment.

 

[Yelsew]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />We no longer face the second death, because now we will appear before the judgment throne of God as a person of faith in God's only Begotten Son, thus there can be no condemnation for us.

In the past you have posted that men can become unbelievers and then again face this condemnation.</font>[/QUOTE]Can a person stop believing? As children we believed in Santa Claus, as an adult do you still believe in Santa Claus? In one sense yes we do, but in the reality sense, no we don't. We stopped believing in Santa Claus in the innocent sense that we did as a child. When one becomes a believer, in the early stages we have an innocent belief, and we are not usually tested until we try to tell others about our faith. This is the stage that we feed on the milk of the Word. Unless we are wiened from the milk and delve into the meat of the word, we are likely to "fall away" or stop believing. So, Yes, one can lose their salvation by once again becoming an unbeliever. "I tried that religion stuff, but it didn't do anything for me". That is often heard from those seeds that fell on rocky ground, or that were plucked up by the birds, or that wilted because their roots could not get to the water of life.

It is only when one comes to faith and strives for the faith, switching from the Milk of the Word to the Meat of the Word in an orderly and timely fashion, that one retains the faith unto salvation. Remember, it is one's faith condition at the judgment that determines where the one spends eternity. Sins of the world are paid for, the individual's works are tested as if by fire, and even if the works are consumed in fire, the individual is saved as if from fire, so all that is left is the faith condition before the Judgment throne of God.

 

[Frogman]

You mix rewards with eternal life. My brother, if our Lord called it eternal life then the faith that the smallest child possesses is equal to the greatest saint, even C.H. Spurgeon is not greater in faith though he spoke innumerable words warning lost sinners to look to Christ; your continuing in the system of works, works and none other but works. Did Christ call it eternal life as a joke, or did he simply lie when he said this?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

That is why there are murders, rapes, frauds, etc. that abound behind prison walls.

This is what you call a 'free-will'? What part of this is it that causes man to 'come' to Christ to receive the gift of eternal life?

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew wrote:

Does that mean then that once we come to faith that we can keep on sinning all the more? Paul answered that! Besides how often do you want to crucify Jesus? Every time you sin it is tantamount to sending Jesus once again to the cross. Furthermore, we are known by our actions, the fruit we produce. If we go on sinning, we are no different than the unbeliever, and there is no evidence that Jesus did anything for us.

My friend all sin is paid for, if we have faith it would matter not whether we have repented or not; or whatsoever may be considered 'fruits of repentance.' As for me, in regards to this kind of thinking I will continue in the line of the Baptist (not baptizer) who came preaching 'repent ye' and demanded 'fruits meat for repentance.' Do as you may, I will not exalt man.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That is why there are murders, rapes, frauds, etc. that abound behind prison walls.

This is what you call a 'free-will'? What part of this is it that causes man to 'come' to Christ to receive the gift of eternal life?

Bro. Dallas Eaton </font>[/QUOTE]"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Yelsew wrote:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Does that mean then that once we come to faith that we can keep on sinning all the more? Paul answered that! Besides how often do you want to crucify Jesus? Every time you sin it is tantamount to sending Jesus once again to the cross. Furthermore, we are known by our actions, the fruit we produce. If we go on sinning, we are no different than the unbeliever, and there is no evidence that Jesus did anything for us.

My friend all sin is paid for, if we have faith it would matter not whether we have repented or not; or whatsoever may be considered 'fruits of repentance.' As for me, in regards to this kind of thinking I will continue in the line of the Baptist (not baptizer) who came preaching 'repent ye' and demanded 'fruits meat for repentance.' Do as you may, I will not exalt man.

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]NOR DO I! Sin paid for does not gain you eternal life! Without faith you go to the lake of fire with your sins paid for!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
You mix rewards with eternal life. My brother, if our Lord called it eternal life then the faith that the smallest child possesses is equal to the greatest saint, even C.H. Spurgeon is not greater in faith though he spoke innumerable words warning lost sinners to look to Christ; your continuing in the system of works, works and none other but works. Did Christ call it eternal life as a joke, or did he simply lie when he said this?

Bro. Dallas

That is exactly the point. At the judgment, God does not get out a measuring stick to see who has the greatest faith, he sees whether or not you have faith in His only Begotten son, even on his name,the size of the tiny mustard seed. If you do, you receive eternal life. If you have no faith you go to the lake of fire. Works do not matter for Salvation and in fact the scriptures tell us that salvation is not of works lest any man should boast.

You continually say that I have a system of works, yet you cannot give scriptures that support your contention, in fact you have ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORT for your contentions so cease your vain repititions of that garbage.

 

[Frogman]

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed.

Grace is dispensed prior to faith.

That is the Word of God, not garbage.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed.

Grace is dispensed prior to faith.

That is the Word of God, not garbage.
Bro. Dallas

Grace has been the norm since Jesus appeared on this earth.

Grace has been present for over 2000 years without interruption, yet the way to hell is broad and easy to travel while that pathway to salvation is narrow and few there are who find it!

If it is grace that saves, every human being for at least the past 2000 years is saved! All the sins that man has done or does is done by Saints!

Grace is an attribute of (that which is true of) God, not a commodity that he hands out like candy or bestows upon some and not others. God's grace covers all mankind equally. To think otherwise is to have a fools perspective of God!

Grace does not save, faith saves!

 

[Frogman]

Grace entered when God visited Adam's sin upon him; then Adam became the first man to know the Grace of God. Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ, but none were saved in the OT apart from Grace.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Grace entered when God visited Adam's sin upon him; then Adam became the first man to know the Grace of God. Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ, but none were saved in the OT apart from Grace.

Bro. Dallas

None were saved in the OT apart from Faith. See Hebrews 11.

 

[KenH]

By grace through faith is the Biblical expression.

 

[Yelsew]

NO, "For by grace are ye saved through faith" is the biblical equation. But you must know what grace is and what faith is have the truth.

Grace is an attribute of God, an attribute that is NOT a commodity that is bestowed or handed out like candy. Faith is an attribute, or condition of man's spirit.

God requires no faith, he is always faithful.

So the equation is while God's Grace prevails ye are saved through your faith in God!