Regeneration

johnp.

Actually, you've got a "grain of truth" -- you've just turned it around. :laugh:

We HAVE elected God as our King -- the lost have "elected" Satan. Under that scenario, we are "elect" or, perhaps more truly, His "electorate." We help "run His campaign" here on earth and His campaign is exactly what is going on in bringing others in.

But the would be King DOES love everybody! Who is the king, God or Satan, that doesn't want people to "vote" for him??

"And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever." First off, recall that in the OT, there were sacrifices for healing such things as leprosy. or cleansing thing contaminated by an unclean woman. Many such sacrifices that dealt with clearing sin in this life. What God said through Samuel is that He will NOT restore the house of Eli to the ministry.

Justified by God in your soul. Recall that in sin, the first thing to die is your soul -- immediately and eternally! Sin commits your soul to self and turns it and you away from God.

Thus, in restoring your soul, God first justifies/saves your soul immediately and eternally! This we could see in the OT saints who had yet to be "regenerated" by the indwelling Spirit, Acts 19:1-5. They were believers -- God GAVE them faith upon their active belief in Him. But Christ had NOT sent the Comforter to indwell and, thereby, "regenerate" and sanctify them spiritually (the part of us, our spirit, that is PROGRESSIVELY saved).

What Calvin has done is "cut out the middleMan" so to speak. He has assumed that we believe in God and are justified if we are "elect" (which is an if that he cannot prove of any man's life) and so his treatment of anyone who appears to understand his theology would be to begin "sanctifying" them as if they were already regenerated. Is it not the assumption of Calvin that we are regenerated before we are saved? when, in fact, we are saved through justification before we are regenerated and sanctified?

"In Christ," this appears to be all simultaneous if we come in via the right "Gate." But if we come in "some other way," we might easily overlook the "Gate" and wander around with the "Shepherd" all our lives never really hearing Him, 1Cor 2:6-16). I suspect that Calvin came in via the latter even though I know that many who follow him today did not.

skypair

john.[/QUOTE]

 

Why? We have been asking you to show your position in Scripture for pages and days now and you have absolutely refused.

 

Faith

None of you can prove that you are the elect of God before the foundation of the world, but Jesus has proved it.

Your hope has never been election, for if it was you are elected by your own words.

We know who have been elected by God, those who have faith in His Son.

Faith has to come first or it is just your own words not the Fathers that you make your claim.

The audiance was those who put thier trust in Jesus and yes those who put thier trust in Jesus has been predestained by the words of God before even the foundation of the world, that whosoever believes shall be saved.

I have never found assurance in election, because of the elect being cut out for unbelief.

I have found hope in Jesus.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.

People with faith can only make the claim they have been saved before the foundation of the world, because if you don't have faith you are not the elect of God. You never will be be, so faith comes first and God forknew who they were so also predestined them.

 

How can we not endure if we are kept? We are kept if we keep ourselves? Is that what you are saying? Abuse of language that's all that is.

He refused because God caused him to refuse. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44. Who knows what happened later?

Why use a verse that proves they were never of us to prove one can turn away after salvation. You believe in works not grace. RO 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

And that is what we believe regardless of your misrepresentations Psalms.

john.

 

How would you know?

You do believe in democracy don't you. HaHa!

Slaves have no voice. Mocking God is your problem. I can understand how you republicans can get monarchy wrong but you have no excuse changing the meaning of election.

DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"

I'll leave you to the would be King. You are obviously as far from Christianty as it's possible to get.

john.

 

Truth

I cannot agree with one scripture and deny another.

We must live by every word that comes from the mouth of.

It is Jesus who keeps, but you can walk away. The young rich ruler was called drawn to Jesus and was chosen by Jesus , but yet walked away.

We either go into God's plan or walk away from it. God's plan for the young rich ruler was to follow Jesus, He walked away and went the wide path instead.

See we must endure to the end to be saved, and remain in Jesus.

Jesus is my only hope, election cannot save me.

They were cut out for unbelief, not because they were not chosen.

If I cannot be saved by Jesus unless I'm elected to salvation, then Jesus does not save election does. That is limiting the grace of God

 

Psalm 109:31

What is with your aversion to posting Scripture? Every post of yours is full of one-liners devoid of any Scriptural support. What is your deal?

 

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mark 10:21-22 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

John 15:4-6 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

Scripture

The scripture should be written on the hearts of men, not tablets of stone. You see the scripture within those words.

I was drawn to Jesus my His word's

That He loved the world that the Father sent His Son and that whosoever believes in Him shall not perishbut have eternal life.

Men have been trying to explain that away for a long time, but I stiill believe that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 Peter 3:
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


1 Corinthians 16:13
Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.


Ephesians 6:11
Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

 

Larry -- welcome back

Apparently they ALL do as the ALL use either faith or belief in the same places depending, I suppose, on that distinction.

I've been maintaining the distinction all along. Have you paid attention? Belief -- trust without evidence. faith -- trust with evidence (Heb 11:1). Ed Young goes so far as to quote Heb 11:1 as "faith is the evidence of things believed!" And see, from blueletterbible.com concordance, I'm getting 4100/believe = "to think something to be true" whereas 4120/faith = "to have confidence something is true." Plus they are derivatives of the same word without being the same word, Larry.

This really avoids the main issue, that revolves around it, of where is regeneration (in your mind) relative to the "effectual call?" IOW, what precipitates regeneration and faith which you say are simultaneous and before salvation?

Here's a "quick and dirty:"

You gotta be JUSTIFIED before you can be regenerated. God is NOT going to take the old "totally depraved" man and make him inexplicably new. That's basically saying the elect are saved without hearing! Does that make sense to anyone?

skypair

 

Here we go, of course you will not believe it less God gives you understanding to see it. here goes:

1 jn 5 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God[has been born of God in the original]: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

jn 5 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, [because of regeneration]and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Also what Jesus is saying here is that having eternal life produces faith and not faith produces eternal life.

Christ gives eternal life to all the election of grace Jn 17

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This eternal life given to the election of grace ensures their faith in him , because faith is that spiritual grace whereby God brings his elect into the knowledge of and realization of there salvation..

 

beloved...

...

I see you don't waste any time tackling the thorny issues! Welcome to BB! :wavey:

Let's try emphasizing the verse a little differently and see if it says that same thing to you.

jn 5 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, [because of regeneration]and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,..." Wouldn't you say now that the prerequisite for being "born of God" is BELIEF that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah?

Now the sad thing among Calvinists is that they can't distinguish "belief" from "faith." That is, belief is what one thinks to be true whereas faith is "the evidence of things believed." This being the case, your verse becomes a matter of believing in Christ before regeneration.

This is a misunderstanding of the "process" of salvation on your part, beloved. The "process" is the "justification" of the soul through obedience to God and then, Col 1:13, He "translates us [gives us] into the kingdom of His dear Son." So you see, by the time that one is "given" to Christ, he/she already has eternal life of his/her soul. The "giving to Christ" is for sanctification by the Holy Spirit indwelling as a citizen of Christ's kingdom.

skypair

 

Huh....:tonofbricks:

What you said made no sense at all, none...

 

Knowledge

See you either trust in Jesus and you get regenerated by Him or you trust in election and be regenerated by trusting in election.

It is Jesus that changes you not election. Election can never change you, but make you grow cold in the hopeless of the world. You do hold the key to knowledge for the world.

The Holy Spirit regenerates us as He stands at the door for you to open it and let Him.

The Holy Spirit is given to believers.

Then it is your choice to walk away as the young rich ruler or just to depend on Jesus.

While the Holy Spirit is at the door of your heart through the words of Jesus you have been given the power to make a choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

Our faith is being given to us through the words of Jesus, it doesn't mean you can't walk away from it.

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

 

Jesus

Jesus is a better hope than election, the Law or anything else men will hang higher than Jesus.

I want you to know this, you can place election in the place of the law, because anything other than drawing near to God through Jesus Christ is no hope at all and has not made anything perfect.

Hebrews 7:18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

 

beloved...

Oops. You're right! I did segregate your words from mine. :laugh: Try again.

IOW, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God [regenerated],..." Wouldn't you say from this excerpt that the prerequisite for being "born of God"/regenerated is BELIEF that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah?

How could that be?

This is a misunderstanding of the "process" of salvation on your part, beloved. The "process" is the "justification" of the soul through obedience to God and then, Col 1:13, He "translates us [gives us] into the kingdom of His dear Son." So you see, by the time that one is "given" to Christ, he/she already has eternal life of his/her soul. The "giving to Christ" is for sanctification by the Holy Spirit indwelling as a citizen of Christ's kingdom.

skypair

 

Please sir, I have no desire to dialoug with you, I percieve you have no spiritual understanding whatsoever, you or ps 119. I would like to hear from some others now..

Thanks !

 

Just like Saddam, eh? Just get rid of the nay-sayers. :laugh: OK, pardon my hospitality. I'll now officially "unwelcome" you here as well. :laugh:

Apparently you think you can drop in on the 21st page of the thread and add something that no one else knows. Go figure!

skypair

 

Being Born Again

John 1

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

A person according to John is born again not by blood, that is , it is not a status that is inherited by physical bloodline, hence the jews of his day thought that they were in a right relationship with God because of their being born a jew !

Jesus refutes this misconcept in jn 8

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed;[natural seed] but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [Jesus is not speaking of abraham now]

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, [spiritually]ye would do the works of Abraham.

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father.[spiritual father] Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

This means they have not the ability to hear, not physical hearing, this they had, but spiritual hearing, only the regenerated [ those made spiritually alive have that ability]


44Ye are of your father[spiritual father] the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.[ lust here is mans own religon] He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John goes on to say , neither is he born of the flesh[ human nature in general] Not only are the jews rebuked for their national pride of thinking they are in right relationship with God because of nationality, but no flesh, no human racr can produce naturally newbirth or regeneration.

Finally John goes on to say , nor the will of man

Where my freewillers at ? John plainly says that newbirth/ regeneration is not a result of mans will, mans decision, mans desire, mans effort.

For a person to believe or promote regeneration because of mans choosing or choice or freewill is in direct contradiction of scripture and therefore God. Its just like the physical jew saying , I am regenerated or born again because I was born a physical jew. And as jesus addressed those religous jews in jn 8, as having been of their father the devil, so unless evidenced otherwise, those cleaving to freewill regeneration, newbirth and salvation are of their father the devil.

Then How are people born again or regenerated ? What does scripture teach about this blessed truth ?

John 1 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They were born again by the will of God , By the sovereign will of the Holy Ghost, Who is God !

Lets look at jn 3

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit of God has to give newbirth , and it is done sovereignly, that is He sovereignly gives newbirth according to the counsel of Gods sovereign will ! Just like the wind is sovereignly controlled by God. Man cannot control the direction of the wind

rev 7 1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

ps 107 24These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.

25For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.

29He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.


ps 148

8Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

The point is that God The Holy Spirit is in control and determines who will be born again and when and where.

Being born again is a work of God, its a new creation, its a resurrection that man cannot contribute to.

Just like the jews of old who blasphemed and attributed the work of God to satan when christ did so many miracles amongest them, in similar, the arminans and freewillers blaspheme when they attribute regeneration or newbirth to mans will.

Jesus told those jews back then that such baspemy against the Holy Spirit would not never find forgiveness. I believe The same plight may be in for those who are arminians and freewillers,

2 thess

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Folks believing in freewill and the universal atonement of arminianism is a Doctrine that denies the effectual work of the Holy Spirit that discrimanetly and sovereignly applies the salvation of christ to Gods elect and them only. It denys also that the death of christ alone is the efficasious cause for saving all those that were intened....

Anyone believing in freewill and arminanism in the day of christ, is sure to hear these words:

matt 7

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Nothing about believing in Calvinism...

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Nothing about believing in Calvinism...

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Still, nothing about believing in Calvinism...

Are there any verses in the Bible that say you must believe in Calvinism to be saved? I didn't think so.

For the person that is about to inform me that Calvinism is just another name for the Gospel - - let's stick to the original name for it then, shall we?