Regeneration

You got the same "issues" as Larry with "spiritual things." Look at 1Cor 2:6 which precedes this section you quote (lucky I knew your reference, BTW).

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect,..." Paul has just transitioned from telling the Corinthians that he only came to them preaching the gospel -- "Christ crucified," 2:2). THAT anyone can understand!

NOW he says he will teach them "wisdom" that only the born again can understand -- which is the section you quote. So the lost CANNOT understand this wisdom but they CAN understand the gospel.

skypair

 

Once again, regeneration does not precede salvation. Regeneration is part of salvation.

 

John the Baptist was reborn before he was physically born.

But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:41.

john.

 

skypair,

re: "Gal 3:22 -- ‘But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.’"



A few translations that render Galatians 3:22 a bit differently than your translation:

The New English Bible - "But Scripture has declared the whole world to be prisoners in subjection to sin, so that faith in Jesus Christ may be the ground on which the promised blessing is given, and given to those who have such faith."

Moffat Translation - "...but Scripture has consigned all without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise due to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who have faith."

Williams Translation - "But the Scripture pictures all mankind as prisoners of sin, so that the promised blessing through faith in Christ might be given to those who have faith."

The Jerusalem Bible - "but it is not: scripture makes no exceptions when it says that sin is master everywhere. In this way the promise can only be given through faith in Jesus Christ and can only be given to those who have this faith."

The above examples do not use the word "believe". But even in your translation, which does use the word "believe", why isn’t there the possibility that the faith "OF Christ" refers not to faith IN Christ, but to Christ's actual faith?


The "Complete Jewish Bible" sees it that way: "But instead, the Tanakh shuts up everything under sin; so that what had been promised might be given, on the ground of Yeshua the Messiah’s trusting faithfulness, to those who continue trustingly faithful."

 

Regeneration is faith being given.

john.

 

Hi Gordon;

I haven't changed there minds and they haven't changed mine. Although the discussion it self has taught me some things about scripture. That is we need to rely on the Bible more than the thoughts of men. This includes myself.
MB

 

Hi John;

This is only your conclusion. The truth is since John hadn't been born yet he was still with out sin. We aren't sinners until we are born. We aren't spiritually dead until we are physically born. We must first be born in order to to be an heir of adams sin. He had not been reborn because he hadn't been born at all.
MB

 

I do not see how the fact that God is speaking to Israel as a nation changes the message behind the text. Sure, they were a nation, but what is a nation made up of? Individuals. So, He was promising to restore Israel against their will, consequently, God was speaking of individual people, Israelites.

I actually think it is a very good text for regeneration.

- Andy

 

Defend it myself? I don't even believe it. But how can you be so dogmatic on this issue and yet not have studied one of the key works on it? It never ceases to amaze me how many people do not even know what they disagree with.


I imagine this discussion is not your attempt to think about the issues involved but rather to have an argument. That being the case, while I could make the case for regeneration prior to faith, I won't take the time. There is likely nothing that will convince you.

 

Hello MB.

No it's not a lot of people believe it.

This is only your conclusion. PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Scipture says otherwise. This is why unborn babies die, they are collecting on the wages of sin. That an unborn child has done nothing right or wrong doesn't change the fact that we were all condemned in Adam not for our own sins. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

What you think MB? Only sinners can die.

Is there something about being born that causes on to be a sinner or do you mean that a baby isn't a sinner until it breaks a law?

john.

 

Being shapened in iniquity and being conceived in sin are two different things.

I meant simply that a baby who hasn't been born in sin isn't a sinner until it is born. It would be rather senseless to make John then being alive spiritually at his making only to make him dead only to rebirth him spiritually. You had him reborn before he had a chance to be made completely to begin with.
How you could assume such from him being formed in iniquity and conceived in sin is a mystery to me. We are born in sin this is true but we are not sinners until we sin. It's true we have a sin nature but we are not sinners until we sin.
MB

 

Uh, so, we DON'T need grace to have faith???

 

Hi JD;

No we need faith to have Grace.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
This is simply saying, if we have no faith, we have no Grace.
Can you show proof that we need Grace to have faith?
MB

 

What does "access" mean? And why is the word "also" there?

Grace is a secret operation of God, and the personal experience makes it known to us. Faith is how we "access" grace experientially.

Also - "in addition" to the legal status of being at peace with God, we experience this peace by faith.

Here's some proof texts:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

1 Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

So, in light of these scriptures...do you still say we do not need grace to have faith?

 

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So, is faith the work of man or the work of God?

 

Who opened the door, and why was it closed?

Not trick questions.

Who opened Lydia's heart? And what was the result of this opening?

No need of grace?

 

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Sort of like...

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

Blammo, this was my question - "is faith the work of man or the work of God?"

What are you saying?

 

I am saying, from Scripture, it appears the believing is done by man. I don't see anything in the Bible saying man is saved when God believes in Himself.

 

I agree that man must believe (exercise personal faith). And in order for him to exercise faith, he must have faith. But where does "the work of God" come in to play in this scheme? "This is the work of God, that you believe..." We posses faith, but faith originates from God. That's the only way you can "exercise" faith, and that faith still be the "work of God". We do it, but God authors it.

In the words of Whittier:

All things are Thine; no gift have we,
Lord of all gifts, to offer Thee:
And hence with grateful hearts today
Thine own before Thy feet we lay.

Thy will was in the builders’ thought;
Thy hand unseen amidst us wrought;
Through mortal motive, scheme and plan
Thy wise eternal purpose ran.