Regeneration

[skypair]

And what part of this passage allows for us to give birth to ourselves through the faith of the natural man?

10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

You got the same "issues" as Larry with "spiritual things." Look at 1Cor 2:6 which precedes this section you quote (lucky I knew your reference, BTW).

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect,..." Paul has just transitioned from telling the Corinthians that he only came to them preaching the gospel -- "Christ crucified," 2:2). THAT anyone can understand!

NOW he says he will teach them "wisdom" that only the born again can understand -- which is the section you quote. So the lost CANNOT understand this wisdom but they CAN understand the gospel.

skypair

 

[whatever]

BINGO! But Calvinists DON'T believe that. They mostly believe that "regeneration" precedes salvation such that the "elect" are enabled to "hear" "spiritual things" 1Cor 2:14 -- namely the gospel.

skypair

Once again, regeneration does not precede salvation. Regeneration is part of salvation.

 

[johnp.]

John the Baptist was reborn before he was physically born.

But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:41.

john.

 

[rstrats]

skypair,

re: "Gal 3:22 -- ‘But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.’"



A few translations that render Galatians 3:22 a bit differently than your translation:

The New English Bible - "But Scripture has declared the whole world to be prisoners in subjection to sin, so that faith in Jesus Christ may be the ground on which the promised blessing is given, and given to those who have such faith."

Moffat Translation - "...but Scripture has consigned all without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise due to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who have faith."

Williams Translation - "But the Scripture pictures all mankind as prisoners of sin, so that the promised blessing through faith in Christ might be given to those who have faith."

The Jerusalem Bible - "but it is not: scripture makes no exceptions when it says that sin is master everywhere. In this way the promise can only be given through faith in Jesus Christ and can only be given to those who have this faith."

The above examples do not use the word "believe". But even in your translation, which does use the word "believe", why isn’t there the possibility that the faith "OF Christ" refers not to faith IN Christ, but to Christ's actual faith?


The "Complete Jewish Bible" sees it that way: "But instead, the Tanakh shuts up everything under sin; so that what had been promised might be given, on the ground of Yeshua the Messiah’s trusting faithfulness, to those who continue trustingly faithful."

 

[johnp.]

Regeneration is faith being given.

john.

 

[MB]

Hi Gordon;

I know - As soon as a person can stretch a gnat around a telephone pole then and only then will there view be true. Someone would say that is sarcasm. They would be correct. Their view of regeneration is the gnat and the truth is the telephone pole and the gnat will never be stretched around the telephone pole. OK everyone lighten up. Go count to 10 and take a deep breath. Smile and laugh. :laugh: We are debating not fighting.

Thanks and Is there any hope for our brethren in Christ who are Calvinist? Makes you wonder sometimes don't it.

I haven't changed there minds and they haven't changed mine. Although the discussion it self has taught me some things about scripture. That is we need to rely on the Bible more than the thoughts of men. This includes myself.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi John;

John the Baptist was reborn before he was physically born.

But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:41.

john.

This is only your conclusion. The truth is since John hadn't been born yet he was still with out sin. We aren't sinners until we are born. We aren't spiritually dead until we are physically born. We must first be born in order to to be an heir of adams sin. He had not been reborn because he hadn't been born at all.
MB

 

[christianyouth]

I will give you credit for trying and posting Scripture. Of course the passage is speaking of Israel. It is speaking to the nation as a whole not to individuals, "Therefore say to the house of Israel" There are countless Jews who have come to salvation individually. This salvation is a corporate salvation.

These verses do not speak to a personal salvation of individual Jews.

There is nothing in these verses that supports the process of Regeneration of an individual where by that individual person can then have faith in God and be saved.

I do not see how the fact that God is speaking to Israel as a nation changes the message behind the text. Sure, they were a nation, but what is a nation made up of? Individuals. So, He was promising to restore Israel against their will, consequently, God was speaking of individual people, Israelites.

I actually think it is a very good text for regeneration.

- Andy

 

[Pastor Larry]

Time to laugh. You are ducking, bobbing, weaving, hiding and stepping form one side to the other. Someone needs to recruit you to their football team as a back.

Send me a copy if that is your premise for being apart of this discussion

or

Defend it yourself.

Defend it myself? I don't even believe it. But how can you be so dogmatic on this issue and yet not have studied one of the key works on it? It never ceases to amaze me how many people do not even know what they disagree with.


I imagine this discussion is not your attempt to think about the issues involved but rather to have an argument. That being the case, while I could make the case for regeneration prior to faith, I won't take the time. There is likely nothing that will convince you.

 

[johnp.]

Hello MB.

This is only your conclusion.

No it's not a lot of people believe it.

The truth is since John hadn't been born yet he was still with out sin.

This is only your conclusion. PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Scipture says otherwise. This is why unborn babies die, they are collecting on the wages of sin. That an unborn child has done nothing right or wrong doesn't change the fact that we were all condemned in Adam not for our own sins. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

We aren't sinners until we are born.

What you think MB? Only sinners can die.

He had not been reborn because he hadn't been born at all.

Is there something about being born that causes on to be a sinner or do you mean that a baby isn't a sinner until it breaks a law?

john.

 

[MB]

Hello MB.



No it's not a lot of people believe it.



This is only your conclusion. PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Scipture says otherwise. This is why unborn babies die, they are collecting on the wages of sin. That an unborn child has done nothing right or wrong doesn't change the fact that we were all condemned in Adam not for our own sins. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

Being shapened in iniquity and being conceived in sin are two different things.

What you think MB? Only sinners can die.



Is there something about being born that causes on to be a sinner or do you mean that a baby isn't a sinner until it breaks a law?

john.

I meant simply that a baby who hasn't been born in sin isn't a sinner until it is born. It would be rather senseless to make John then being alive spiritually at his making only to make him dead only to rebirth him spiritually. You had him reborn before he had a chance to be made completely to begin with.
How you could assume such from him being formed in iniquity and conceived in sin is a mystery to me. We are born in sin this is true but we are not sinners until we sin. It's true we have a sin nature but we are not sinners until we sin.
MB

 

[J.D.]

Calvinism teaches the opposite that we need Grace to have faith and this is why no one can prove this position with scripture. It simply isn't in scripture.

Uh, so, we DON'T need grace to have faith???

 

[MB]

Hi JD;

Uh, so, we DON'T need grace to have faith???

No we need faith to have Grace.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
This is simply saying, if we have no faith, we have no Grace.
Can you show proof that we need Grace to have faith?
MB

 

[J.D.]

What does "access" mean? And why is the word "also" there?

Grace is a secret operation of God, and the personal experience makes it known to us. Faith is how we "access" grace experientially.

Also - "in addition" to the legal status of being at peace with God, we experience this peace by faith.

Here's some proof texts:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

1 Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

So, in light of these scriptures...do you still say we do not need grace to have faith?

 

[J.D.]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So, is faith the work of man or the work of God?

 

[J.D.]

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Who opened the door, and why was it closed?

Not trick questions.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Who opened Lydia's heart? And what was the result of this opening?

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

No need of grace?

 

[Blammo]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So, is faith the work of man or the work of God?

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Sort of like...

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[J.D.]

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Sort of like...

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Blammo, this was my question - "is faith the work of man or the work of God?"

What are you saying?

 

[Blammo]

Blammo, this was my question - "is faith the work of man or the work of God?"

What are you saying?

I am saying, from Scripture, it appears the believing is done by man. I don't see anything in the Bible saying man is saved when God believes in Himself.

 

[J.D.]

I am saying, from Scripture, it appears the believing is done by man. I don't see anything in the Bible saying man is saved when God believes in Himself.

I agree that man must believe (exercise personal faith). And in order for him to exercise faith, he must have faith. But where does "the work of God" come in to play in this scheme? "This is the work of God, that you believe..." We posses faith, but faith originates from God. That's the only way you can "exercise" faith, and that faith still be the "work of God". We do it, but God authors it.

In the words of Whittier:

All things are Thine; no gift have we,
Lord of all gifts, to offer Thee:
And hence with grateful hearts today
Thine own before Thy feet we lay.

Thy will was in the builders’ thought;
Thy hand unseen amidst us wrought;
Through mortal motive, scheme and plan
Thy wise eternal purpose ran.