Regeneration

[MB]

No, I cut and paste. Not all versions do the italics. The NIV omits It is. Just compare the versions.

rom 8, John 8; eph 2, 4 etc. All through it. Surely if have studied reformed theology enough to have such a dogmatic opinion, you have seen hte passages that Calvinists use to support their belief.

When you say we are not saved by our faith, you have departed from orthodoxy and embraced heresy. Period. God saves those who believe on him, no matter whether you are arminian or Calvinist (or like to pretend there is some mysterious ground in between).
It says "you cannot hear my word." He is not talking about physical hearing, but about understand, and he says "You cannot" using a word of ability. It is "You are not able."

then I would suggest you need to study them more.

It says "You cannot please God." How is that not a disability? Perhaps we are using different dictionaries.

All men know God exist. When God draws someone, they come.

I won't argue with you any longer on this. If you wish to continue go ahead I just won't discuss it with you. I'd rather converse with someone else Thank you.
MB

 

[whatever]

Is this Reform outline an official outline or is it as you understand it?

I don't know that it is official or anything, but I believe it is the majority position among Reformed theologians. It isn't hard to find disagreement though.

 

[lindell dunning1]

Dear Mr. Slocum,
When the Lord spoke with Nicodemus concerning the New Birth,He made it clear that man had no part in that operation. Verse 8.
The entire discourse with this man shows that a man is ignorant of heavenly treasures in his own religious notions.
This statement may shock you,and I wouldn't be surprised that you would disdain everything written here,but it must be addressed.
John 3:16 is not and never was an evangelical call to repentance. There are many passages of scripture that are but this is not one of them. When our Lord said "Whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" is simply making a declaration that this operation of the Holy Spirit has taken place in his life as told in verse 8. Our Lord did not say that if you will believe,then you can help yourself to the New Birth. John 3:16 is an assurance statement for the new found sheep.
It is amazing that the glory of the Lord is totally ignored because men will not include verse 21 in their teaching.
Regeneration has always been performed the same way from Adam till today. One monumental verse concerning the issue is Psalm 65:4.
Isn't it ironic that after our Lord explained these things to Nicodemus,the Bible does not say that he experienced the New Birth? In John 7:50-53 shows that he is still with some of those whom Our Lord calls the devil's children in John 8:44. And his last mention is in John 19:39-42,where he aided Joseph of Arimathea in our Lord's burial. You would think that after a meeting such as this that he would have prostrated himself before our Lord but he did not. Why didn't he?
When our Lord talked with the woman at the well,she asked for this living water even though she did not understand and there are several other men and women who made demands of our Lord,but the learned Nicodemus never called Him Lord.
If you will examine John 12:24,you will see clearly the New Birth and how it is accomplished. Adios amigo

 

[Pastor Larry]

I won't argue with you any longer on this. If you wish to continue go ahead I just won't discuss it with you. I'd rather converse with someone else Thank you.

That is more than fine with me. But you need to remember that your problem is not with me. Christ is the one who said "cannot" and "are not able." So I am not the one who created the idea of inability.

People try to put words in the mouths of Calvinists that are words that come right from Scripture. It points out that your problem is with Scripture, not with Calvinists.

 

[skypair]

Your concept of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation is sort of like 'slopping the hogs', you throw it in the trough and they get it if it looks good. [See Matthew 7:6]

My concept of "election" is that God chose all of us but, just like you interviewing for your last job, it's up to you to accept it.

Read and reread and pray until you can understand. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:1 that we were spiritually dead. A dead man can do nothing, whether Spiritually dead or physically dead, except perhaps stink. Paul tells us in the following passage that while we were Spiritually dead God made us Spiritually alive; that is regeneration. I use the NKJV in case you don't understand 'quicken'.

oldreg -- I "been there, done that." But you do highlight another false impression Calvinism has promoted -- that lost men are dead as Lazarus. Oh, don't they love to make the comparison! WRONG! Not even the spirit of man is that dead!

Which is interesting to me because they will allow such an one to come to their churches. If that person seems to "get" what they are talking about, they immediately assume that the newcomer is "elect." Know why? Cause indeed, there are a lot of things the people who want to be religious can fake. And a church that merely wants to sanctify rather than save them is perfectly happy letting them do so.

Me: John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

OR: The 'whosoever' is one who has experienced regeneration.

Two points, OR: 1) You did manage to find where Jesus said you must believe to be born again so that part of your post is in tatters. 2) I am aware of and don't believe that "whosoever" to a Calvinist departs from the actual meaning of that word just so as not to have this and other scriptures contradict their FALSE SOTIEROLOGY. In fact, if just you and the Spirit read that together, you would not come up with such a silly construct as that!

But Calvinism had planted his lies in scripture -- like "dead in sins" meaning dead like Lazarus -- like "foreknow" meaning forechose. There's a "raft" of them in TULIP -- None of those terms is in scripture. And "devices!" "Personal faith" (again, not in scripture) = belief.

skypair





:godisgood:[/QUOTE]

 

[skypair]

When our Lord said "Whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" is simply making a declaration that this operation of the Holy Spirit has taken place in his life as told in verse 8. Our Lord did not say that if you will believe,..

Oh, it DOES SPECIFICALLY say that just one verse earlier! John 3:15 -- "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." And that "whosoever" is not God believing -- it's not the Holy Spirit believing -- it's not Jesus believing. They already believe. It is MAN, any man/woman, who believes that "should not perish but have everlasting life."

It is amazing that the glory of the Lord is totally ignored because men will not include verse 21 in their teaching.

Let everyone else in on your "secret verse," indell. John 3:21 -- "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." So -- the "elect" are no totally deprave after all, eh? We always figured there was a bit of false modesty about them! :laugh: They claim to be just as "totally depraved" as we but in truth, they're not, are they. Else they couldn't come to the light.

Isn't it ironic that after our Lord explained these things to Nicodemus,the Bible does not say that he experienced the New Birth?

He couldn't -- not until Jesus died. There's 2 things you need to know: 1) Jesus was carrying out the great commission in John 2-3 before He met His disciples. As such you will see Him preaching the church gospel in Judea, in Samaria ("I must needs go through"), and to the uttermost parts of the world. 2) It is a fact that OT saints weren't born again in their lifetime -- re: Acts 19:1-5. John the B's disciples were "saved" but hadn't received the Holy Spirit until they named the name of Christ (Course, I don't blame your ignorance. Your spiritual leader never saw this either.)

In John 7:50-53 shows that he is still with some of those whom Our Lord calls the devil's children in John 8:44. And his last mention is in John 19:39-42,where he aided Joseph of Arimathea in our Lord's burial. You would think that after a meeting such as this that he would have prostrated himself before our Lord but he did not. Why didn't he?

Now do you see why this is a misguided diatribe on your part as well??

When our Lord talked with the woman at the well,she asked for this living water even though she did not understand and there are several other men and women who made demands of our Lord,but the learned Nicodemus never called Him Lord.

This, indell, is Christ revealing -- at the end of His own "great commission" -- the 7 churches whom He likened to her 7 husbands.

Jesus life did not start the church -- His death did.

If you will examine John 12:24,you will see clearly the New Birth and how it is accomplished. Adios amigo

Yup. Now go and compare that to 1Cor 15:37-38 -- and then to your life.

skypair

 

[johnp.]

Hello skypair.

EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins...

Yet another Calvinist lie? If dead doesn't mean dead then it means alive? So the living can be made alive in Christ. Cool.

God's foreknowledge isn't based on Him having been there and seen the future but that He knows the future because He causes it to be. EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...
Two more Calvinist lies? Predestined doesn't mean predestined and dead means alive and belief doesn't mean faith. Can I assume that hate means love?Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Election doesn't mean chosen or selected and I suppose that slaves are free to pick and choose their own Master? Jesus died for everyone and 1 Sam 3:16 is just an inconvienience I should ignore and God works out nothing in conformity with the purpose of his will. Can I join your Church?

...that lost men are dead as Lazarus.

Lazarus isn't dead. If you mean the 'lost' as in all men are lost you have misunderstood. The 'lost' are the elect in Christ, the lost are not all men. Those going to Hell are reprobates chosen by God. Jesus came to find the lost ones and because He is God He was able to find them all. ...you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21. The Good Shepherd will lose none of His sheep will He?

What's the difference between faith and belief please?

They claim to be just as "totally depraved" as we but in truth, they're not, are they. Else they couldn't come to the light.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
We were just as depraved as all men but God had mercy on me and drew me to Jesus. Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit to spirit. That we came into the truth is true but the truth tells us that we are the same as all men, if we weren't we wouldn't need mercy would we?

He couldn't -- not until Jesus died.

JN 13:10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you."
If a man is clean then he has recieved the forgiveness of sins which means he is saved, born again. ...But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:11.

Pentecost was not the day the disciples became Christ's followers was it? They had been cleaned, they had been washed, they were already sanctified and justified, but not in their faith, in Christ.

The prophets had no bother seeing did they?

John 3:15 -- "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." I believe in Him. I know He died for my sins, my trust is that, my belief is that and my faith is that. I shall live forever and I shall never perish. Now that's cool.

"A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet..." The disciples were unaware of their rebirth.

john.

 

[OldRegular]

Regeneration, of God or of man???

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Your concept of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation is sort of like 'slopping the hogs', you throw it in the trough and they get it if it looks good. [See Matthew 7:6]

Response by skypair
My concept of "election" is that God chose all of us but, just like you interviewing for your last job, it's up to you to accept it.

skypair, you are making man the author of his own salvation, a salvation by works since even though he is chosen by God his salvation or damnation is up to him. I thought Jesus Christ said something like the following:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Are you saying that God chose some but did not give them to Jesus Christ?

Furthermore, 'skypair' you are claiming that some of God's elect will wind up in the 'lake of fire' since they can reject His election. Doesn't that contradict the above Scripture as well as the following?

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Having faith in God has nothing to do with working for our salvation.

It is given up on one self and trusting in God.

Our wages for our sin is death, faith is not the requirement for our sins it is death.

Your only hope is Jesus.

 

[MB]

Hi Old regular;
You need to consider all that Paul said;
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Are you claiming that you are saved with out submission? Do you think it's different for the Jews than it is for the Gentiles. What about submission. Got an answer?
MB

 

[johnp.]

Having faith in God has nothing to do with working for our salvation.

Faith is a work Psalms. Jesus said it was a work. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Our wages for our sin is death, faith is not the requirement for our sins it is death.

The wages of sin is death but our condemnation was imputed to us from Adam. That's why babies die, they die because Adam took the fruit. RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Work of God

The work of God is that we believe.

We cannot believe until we have faith.

It does not matter what we believe we are to have faith in Jesus and He will direct our path.

Praise be to Jesus, i am hopeless without Him.

 

[Blammo]

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[johnp.]

Psalms, you said:
Having faith in God has nothing to do with working for our salvation.

And then you have said:
The work of God is that we believe.

And you lost me. I can't understand what you mean could you try again please.

Blammo ...man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ...

Did Jesus say faith was a work or not? JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Either way that is read, either God works faith in us as it is God's work or it is a work God requires of you and you are saved by works. Which is it?

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith In God

Faith in God is not belief but to trust in God's word no matter what you believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Hi Old regular;
You need to consider all that Paul said;
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Are you claiming that you are saved with out submission? Do you think it's different for the Jews than it is for the Gentiles. What about submission. Got an answer?
MB

We are discussing regeneration. The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Unregenerate man is incapable of submitting to or interacting with God as the Apostle Paul notes in the following Scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Insofar as man himself is concerned, perhaps even aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ vividly demonstrate this difference between the effect of the gospel call on the unregenerate man and the regenerate man in the parable of the sower [Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23]. In this parable four people heard the Gospel call but only one, the last, received the effectual call. He received the seed into good ground, ground that had been prepared through regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration, justification, adoption, and pardon. In conversion the regenerate person submits to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. As the believer grows in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [2 Peter 3:18] he will come to more fully understand these graces and, though they are freely bestowed, the extent of the actual cost. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. It is also important to understand that both faith and repentance are gifts of God [Ephesians 2:8; Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18]

 

[johnp.]

faith noun 1 trust or confidence...
belief noun... 2 trust or confidence...
trust noun 1 belief or confidence in...
Faith, trust and belief have the same meaning how do you make them different.

john.

 

[skypair]

Faith is a work Psalms. Jesus said it was a work. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

But belief is NOT a "work" (Rom 4:5) and we MUST believe before God will give us faith.

Plus, you quote a verse on belief -- not faith. So it is really hard to follow your reasoning here, johnp.

Faith, trust and belief have the same meaning how do you make them different.

They are distniguished by the one who is accomplishes each. God cannot believe for us but He can give us faith/evidence. We cannot generate faith in God by ourselves, but we can believe God and obey. Now reconsider all those passages where they are found and see if that doesn't make spiritual sense to you.

skypair

 

[skypair]

skypair, you are making man the author of his own salvation,...

No, I am making man the "reader about" and "believer" in God. The "Author" is the one who planned it and went to the cross for it. It is clear that you are just repeating someone else's begus accusation.

... a salvation by works since even though he is chosen by God his salvation or damnation is up to him.

Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." See, the man that believeth WORKETH NOT. So how are you going to make my salvation be one of works. The believer in Christ works not but believes -- he/she is justified, and God gives him/her faith.

I thought Jesus Christ said something like the following:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Right. BUt your vitation relies on other verses to discover how God gives believers to Jesus. Try Col 1:13. When we are justified by belief, then God "translates" us into the kingdom of Christ and Christ will not reject us but will keep us! :jesus:

Are you saying that God chose some but did not give them to Jesus Christ?

God chose ALL. Christ died for the sins of "all the world." It is we who must eccept through belief.

Furthermore, 'skypair' you are claiming that some of God's elect will wind up in the 'lake of fire' since they can reject His election. Doesn't that contradict the above Scripture as well as the following?

Even in your own theology, the elect are the saved -- so no, the elect perserve.

OR, your main problem here is in using the wrong sotierology model. Before we are Christ's and given all those wonderful gifts of sanctification like rebirth, faith, Holy Spirit indwelling, the rapture escape, etc. we have to be justified before God. We have to hear the gospel, believe, and repent. Today when that happens, God transalates us into Christ's kingdom. In the OT, there was no Christ's kingdom so they await the resurrection of the just to enter into Christ's kingdom.

skypair

 

[GordonSlocum]

Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." See, the man that believeth WORKETH NOT.

One of my favorite verses in the Bible. Notice what it says. A person who will believe is justified. A person who will believe this believing is counted as righteousness. Justified and counted for righteousness are synonymous for new birth, salvation, regeneration, etc.