The RCC was founded by a secular empire. The first pope was declared by a secular Emperor. Yes, it is built on a house of cards. It is "of this world" and subject to its own master.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Renouncing the Catholic faith formally
- Thread starter Croyant
- Start date
The RCC was founded by a secular empire. The first pope was declared by a secular Emperor. Yes, it is built on a house of cards. It is "of this world" and subject to its own master.
So what....do you really think most of these churches aren't? Please....your smarter than that.
House of cards? It has only endured for 2,000 years. No institution of the human race has lasted even half that long. Jesus established it. The apostles grew it. The bishops of the church have sustained it over two millennia. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it and so it shall ever remain until His return. House of cards indeed!
As far as pagan-filled institutions, it is young -- and certainly not 2000 years old. Hinduism, another pagan religion is much, much older. But the two do have some things in common.
Actually no....Catholics believe in Christ. But they add works to salvation. That is the big error. From there all heck breaks loose. What they seemingly cannot or will not accept is the Devine Grace doctrine....Sola Gracia. And that really is foolish in the 1st degree.
JonC wrote: The RCC was founded by a secular empire. The first pope was declared by a secular Emperor. Yes, it is built on a house of cards. It is "of this world" and subject to its own master.
JonC you are so very wrong;
Constantine was raised with Christian beliefs by his mother St. Helena although he delayed his baptism until he was on his deathbed. It seems clear that he had enough faith to seek salvation in Christ, knowing that he was facing eternity and his soul was in the balance
Your Young Men Will See Visions...
After seeing a vision in which he was told that he would conquer under the sign of the Christian cross, he adopted it as his standard and his entire army carried it into battle against the pagan general Maxentius and he won control of the empire in 312 AD.
Freedom At Last...
The following year Constantine signed the Edict of Milan (sometimes known as the Edict of Tolerance) that officially ended the persecution of the Church. It's hard to understand how anyone can believe that Constantine, (who died a Christian despite his delay) would have paganized the early Catholic Church.
Julian Doesn't Keep The Faith.
Forty-eight years later, in 361 AD, the emperor Julian the Apostate launched a persecution of the Church in an attempt to bring back paganism. Why would that have been necessary if Constantine had already corrupted the Catholic Church?
History Tells All
Some careful research and study of the first 300 years of Christianity will reveal that Catholic doctrines such as the Eucharist, Apostolic authority, and the pope as the successor of Peter were believed from the very beginning of Christianity and certainly were not the result of any pagan influence under Constantine.
In Fact
Christianity has been called Catholic in Acts 9:31 (Greek: "ekklesia katholos") and at least from 107AD when Ignatius, the Bishop of the Church in Antioch, used it in one of his letters to another church which indicates that by that time the original Christian Church was already well known as the Catholic Church in order to distinguish Christ's Church from heretical groups. Keep in mind that that same church in Antioch was where we were all first called Christians as recorded in Acts 11:26. (The Faith of the Early Fathers, William A. Jurgens, Collegeville, Minn.; Liturgical Press, 1970. p.25, #65)
JonC you are so very wrong;
Constantine was raised with Christian beliefs by his mother St. Helena although he delayed his baptism until he was on his deathbed. It seems clear that he had enough faith to seek salvation in Christ, knowing that he was facing eternity and his soul was in the balance
Your Young Men Will See Visions...
After seeing a vision in which he was told that he would conquer under the sign of the Christian cross, he adopted it as his standard and his entire army carried it into battle against the pagan general Maxentius and he won control of the empire in 312 AD.
Freedom At Last...
The following year Constantine signed the Edict of Milan (sometimes known as the Edict of Tolerance) that officially ended the persecution of the Church. It's hard to understand how anyone can believe that Constantine, (who died a Christian despite his delay) would have paganized the early Catholic Church.
Julian Doesn't Keep The Faith.
Forty-eight years later, in 361 AD, the emperor Julian the Apostate launched a persecution of the Church in an attempt to bring back paganism. Why would that have been necessary if Constantine had already corrupted the Catholic Church?
History Tells All
Some careful research and study of the first 300 years of Christianity will reveal that Catholic doctrines such as the Eucharist, Apostolic authority, and the pope as the successor of Peter were believed from the very beginning of Christianity and certainly were not the result of any pagan influence under Constantine.
In Fact
Christianity has been called Catholic in Acts 9:31 (Greek: "ekklesia katholos") and at least from 107AD when Ignatius, the Bishop of the Church in Antioch, used it in one of his letters to another church which indicates that by that time the original Christian Church was already well known as the Catholic Church in order to distinguish Christ's Church from heretical groups. Keep in mind that that same church in Antioch was where we were all first called Christians as recorded in Acts 11:26. (The Faith of the Early Fathers, William A. Jurgens, Collegeville, Minn.; Liturgical Press, 1970. p.25, #65)
Martin Luther was also raised with Christian beliefs.....are you converting to Lutheranism? Brigham Young was raised with Christian beliefs, and Joseph Smith dreamed dreams and had visions....are you converting to Mormonism? The problem is that your authority ends at men and what they determine to be true. They give you a history and you readily gobble it down. They trump God's Word because...well....as you said, they are the ones that determined what God was really saying in the first place. LDS may actually suit you. Like the RCC, they look internally to men to affirm their message. And EW&F is right, the RCC does, like the Mormons, believe in Christ. Ironically, so do demons....so who cares? The difference between the RCC and the LDS is antiquity. That's it....one is merely an older apostasy.
There is a far cry from the Church being called "catholic" and being the Catholic Church. If you look at older documents, it was common to refer to the Church as catholic .... and the catholic Church....when referring to the universal Church. In case you were wondering, people like R.B.C. Howell were not referring to the RCC when they spoke of the catholic church (Howell was, BTW, referring to Baptists). Just because the RCC claims a history that it has no legitimate claim over does not make it so. Just because you believe what is handed to you doesn't make it so. We should not change our history to suit the mythology your religion has created. You may believe whatever you wish, but believing doesn't make it so, and you shouldn't expect the world to accept the mythology of your faith.
Last edited by a moderator:
JonC, symbols don't mean anything intrinsically: they have the meaning we assign to them. It is no surprise some Christian symbols were used by pagans and there's nothing to apologize for.
- Similarities in things like shapes, styles of dress, habits (such as kneeling, praying, etc.) indicate nothing more than *coincidence* - obviously such things (circles, purple robes, beams of light, etc.) are simply *extremely common things* that pop up in all kinds of contexts. To assert a close and intentional relationship between two belief systems because of such similarities is simply either stupidity or blind prejudice in action.
- If pagan religions resemble Christianity in any form (and they do!) it is either because the pagans borrowed from the true faith, because the True God planted a seed of the true faith in their culture, or because the Enemy did so for his own designs.
Thus, any Protestant (and, yes, self-styled "Bible Christians" and Baptists are Protestants, since they reject the only Christian Church that existed for the first 15 centuries after Christ) who calls the Catholic Church "pagan" needs to look in mirror, for by any rational measure you and your religion are jus as "pagan". But educated Christians know that the secularists' charge of "pagan origins" and "pagan corruption" holds no more water than that of the fundamentalists. Similarities between ancient pagan religions and Catholicism do not mean Catholicism has been "paganized" any more than the similarities between paganism and even more basic Christian symbols, beliefs, and practices mean that *all* Christianity has been "paganized".
The author of "Babylon Mystery Religion" - one of the main, original sources alleging the "paganizing" of Catholicism from which *many* fundamentalist authors have drawn - changed his mind after learning the facts, displaying his intellectual honesty - his honest search for truth.
If the Protestant finds *more* faux "paganism" in Catholicism that is only because *they are missing so much of Christianity*. John notes in his gospel that Christ did and said many things that were not written down. Paul commands his subjects to obey the oral Tradition he gave them. Protestants, who reject oral Tradition, have no idea what these things are. (In fact, as is clear from any holistic reading, the epistles are "occasional" in nature, specifically *not* covering the important things all Christians knew and did, but only there errors and the things they did *wrong*. The facts from the documentation we have from the earliest Christian congregations is that they were Catholic in all respects - they celebrated Mass, they honored the mother of God, they prayed for their God; the seed at least of every Catholic doctrine and dogma was present since all originate with the apostles. The honest seeker of truth who examines the material available will realize these things, as Cardinal Newman did.)
I'll repeat one long quote from Rev. Woodrow:
"My reason for pulling the original book out of print was quite basic: Citing similarities between Catholic practices and pagan practices proves nothing if there is no actual connection. One could take virtually anything—even McDonald’s golden arches—and do the same: The Encyclopedia Americana (article: "arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. As Babylon was called "the golden city" (Is. 14:4, KJV), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered again and again about the supposed pagan origins of the Catholic Church.
It is the same method atheists use in seeking to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Catholic Church. By this method, one also could condemn Protestant and Evangelical denominations such as the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist and Nazarene: Basic things such as prayer and kneeling in prayer would have to be rejected, as pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water. The list could go on and on.
By this method, even the Bible would have to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible were also known among pagans: raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, a city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, and tithes.
By this method, the Lord himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the "sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4)."
In contrast to Rev. Woodrow, anyone who *does* learn the facts of the matter and still insists that the Catholic Church has been "corrupted by paganism" is either incapable of intelligent reasoning (that is, mentally handicapped) or dishonest - period.
- Similarities in things like shapes, styles of dress, habits (such as kneeling, praying, etc.) indicate nothing more than *coincidence* - obviously such things (circles, purple robes, beams of light, etc.) are simply *extremely common things* that pop up in all kinds of contexts. To assert a close and intentional relationship between two belief systems because of such similarities is simply either stupidity or blind prejudice in action.
- If pagan religions resemble Christianity in any form (and they do!) it is either because the pagans borrowed from the true faith, because the True God planted a seed of the true faith in their culture, or because the Enemy did so for his own designs.
Thus, any Protestant (and, yes, self-styled "Bible Christians" and Baptists are Protestants, since they reject the only Christian Church that existed for the first 15 centuries after Christ) who calls the Catholic Church "pagan" needs to look in mirror, for by any rational measure you and your religion are jus as "pagan". But educated Christians know that the secularists' charge of "pagan origins" and "pagan corruption" holds no more water than that of the fundamentalists. Similarities between ancient pagan religions and Catholicism do not mean Catholicism has been "paganized" any more than the similarities between paganism and even more basic Christian symbols, beliefs, and practices mean that *all* Christianity has been "paganized".
The author of "Babylon Mystery Religion" - one of the main, original sources alleging the "paganizing" of Catholicism from which *many* fundamentalist authors have drawn - changed his mind after learning the facts, displaying his intellectual honesty - his honest search for truth.
If the Protestant finds *more* faux "paganism" in Catholicism that is only because *they are missing so much of Christianity*. John notes in his gospel that Christ did and said many things that were not written down. Paul commands his subjects to obey the oral Tradition he gave them. Protestants, who reject oral Tradition, have no idea what these things are. (In fact, as is clear from any holistic reading, the epistles are "occasional" in nature, specifically *not* covering the important things all Christians knew and did, but only there errors and the things they did *wrong*. The facts from the documentation we have from the earliest Christian congregations is that they were Catholic in all respects - they celebrated Mass, they honored the mother of God, they prayed for their God; the seed at least of every Catholic doctrine and dogma was present since all originate with the apostles. The honest seeker of truth who examines the material available will realize these things, as Cardinal Newman did.)
I'll repeat one long quote from Rev. Woodrow:
"My reason for pulling the original book out of print was quite basic: Citing similarities between Catholic practices and pagan practices proves nothing if there is no actual connection. One could take virtually anything—even McDonald’s golden arches—and do the same: The Encyclopedia Americana (article: "arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. As Babylon was called "the golden city" (Is. 14:4, KJV), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered again and again about the supposed pagan origins of the Catholic Church.
It is the same method atheists use in seeking to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Catholic Church. By this method, one also could condemn Protestant and Evangelical denominations such as the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist and Nazarene: Basic things such as prayer and kneeling in prayer would have to be rejected, as pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water. The list could go on and on.
By this method, even the Bible would have to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible were also known among pagans: raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, a city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, and tithes.
By this method, the Lord himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the "sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4)."
In contrast to Rev. Woodrow, anyone who *does* learn the facts of the matter and still insists that the Catholic Church has been "corrupted by paganism" is either incapable of intelligent reasoning (that is, mentally handicapped) or dishonest - period.
Why are you speaking of symbols? I never said anything about symbols. When I said that the RCC is a product of paganism, and when I offered you the Catholic answer that the RCC purified that paganism, I was not talking about symbols. Remember, I said I could care less about a tree (Christmas tree)? I'm taking about paganism itself, not symbols. I'm talking about a pagan worldview and ideology that is the RCC.
Maybe you haven't noticed Jon but there are allot of Catholics around. Come up North if you don't believe me.
So what do you plan to do about it...or are you content to have coexist all around you?
No, but I appreciate your concern. Have you ever considered the possibility that your religion has glimpses of light (hijacked from the Church and implemented centuries later as a secular version of Christianity) while Scripture has the fullness that your dogma lacks because it is truly the revelation of God?
I’ve lived around a lot of Catholics….many are friends. But nothing like when I lived in DC….or when I stayed in San Antonio (where Ash Wed. looks like something from a horror movie). I also have a couple of Mormon friends.
I do not plan to do anything about the Catholic Church. It is a part of the worldly structure which stands in antithesis of the Kingdom of God. I believe this is how it should be. It doesn’t matter if it is the Catholic Church, Mormonism, atheism, Satanism….whatever. The “World” and the children of God form a dichotomy throughout Scripture and I am not looking to mend a divide. As I said early on, lakeside and I can only make observations of and for each other. We cannot debate because we stand on entirely different foundations, but we can coexist and dialogue. It would be wonderful if Lakeside would brush off his/her Bible and prayerfully read the gospel message. It would be wonderful if God would open his/her eyes to the Truth contained therein. But my experience has been that there is no one as blind as an apologetic (using a contemporary definition rather than simply having an answer for one's faith) regardless of the belief.
Last edited by a moderator:
Its more than a faith, its primerially their identity.....they are mostly born into it. Besides its easy. Now you don't really have to study the Bible. But you do have a system imposed upon you that really isn't all that hard to accommodate.....and sometimes its pretty and sounds nice. The easy part is the sacrument of confession and the act of contrition. Then you gotta mechanism to heaven. So you can sin all week, go to confession and in 15 minutes you are a new person....cleansed of your sin. How easy is that? I truly don't understand why more people don't cop to it. Why do you think these homo priests keep stupping the kiddies....they get payed to wear silk gowns, they have access to innocent young things,they get revered by the community and they get exonerated for their most henious crimes.....Life Is Good:laugh:
Last edited by a moderator:
And Jon, you don't want to do anything about that?.....Really......cause I do. That crap is a scourge on the earth. Most of all.....Catholics know it too.
They are just like any other false religion pretending to be something it is not...so yes, they are a scourge, they are "anti-Christ"...but they are not alone.
On a side note, I might have to have a capsule endoscopy (where you swallow a camera pill). The good news is that in a few weeks there might be a pill camera…gently used….on ebay if anyone’s interested. :thumbs:
Last edited by a moderator:
Historical truth prevails
Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism "pagan" fail. Catholic doctrines are neither borrowed from the mystery religions nor introduced from pagans after the conversion of Constantine. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.
In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices. The charge of paganism just doesn’t work.
Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism "pagan" fail. Catholic doctrines are neither borrowed from the mystery religions nor introduced from pagans after the conversion of Constantine. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.
In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices. The charge of paganism just doesn’t work.
That is correct....my nephew was abused (along with 11 other children) by a IFB pedifile (the guy who drove the bus). But it does not exonerate any of these churches
But don't misunderstand me Lakeside, in many ways you Catholics got it going on. No matter how boring mass is, your churches have at least 5 on Sunday and at least one on Saturday evening. That's a ton of money in them thar collection plates! And you are everywhere. At any given time I can go to 6 churches that are local to me and you always keep the doors open so I can get into light a candle or say a prayer....I like that.
You align yourselves to ethnicities real well also. ST MICHAELS will be hosting the local Italian festival next week and all the Irish will be at ST MARYS for corned beef and cabbage for St Patties Day.....so at least there is still a local presence....oh and Christmas is so so beautiful with the midnight masses and high masses, enough to make the Episcopalians drool in envy. Yea you have the hearts and minds of most of the common folk, I will give you that. In my state, in RI, NY and PA your church dominates....And you have a growing population of Latins comming in in waves. And the biggest complement of all is you got the mainline protestant denominations copying you .....for example, Saturday night services.:thumbsup: Way to go!!!
So as far as I can see, your people have taken steps to insure your place in "Church Inc" for a long long time. Congrats on that:thumbsup:
But now what about the people who have a deep and spiritual transformation from weekly church goer to serious Christian....what depths do you go to in order to encourage his or her walk with Christ? Because this is what this whole convoluted thread is trying to ask. How does a born again Catholic reserve the Grace of God through the Holy Spirit and still remain in your works based salvation system? Got an answer for the Op Mr. CATHOLIC?
You align yourselves to ethnicities real well also. ST MICHAELS will be hosting the local Italian festival next week and all the Irish will be at ST MARYS for corned beef and cabbage for St Patties Day.....so at least there is still a local presence....oh and Christmas is so so beautiful with the midnight masses and high masses, enough to make the Episcopalians drool in envy. Yea you have the hearts and minds of most of the common folk, I will give you that. In my state, in RI, NY and PA your church dominates....And you have a growing population of Latins comming in in waves. And the biggest complement of all is you got the mainline protestant denominations copying you .....for example, Saturday night services.:thumbsup: Way to go!!!
So as far as I can see, your people have taken steps to insure your place in "Church Inc" for a long long time. Congrats on that:thumbsup:
But now what about the people who have a deep and spiritual transformation from weekly church goer to serious Christian....what depths do you go to in order to encourage his or her walk with Christ? Because this is what this whole convoluted thread is trying to ask. How does a born again Catholic reserve the Grace of God through the Holy Spirit and still remain in your works based salvation system? Got an answer for the Op Mr. CATHOLIC?
Last edited by a moderator: