Renouncing the Catholic faith formally

[JonC]

Historical truth prevails



Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism "pagan" fail. Catholic doctrines are neither borrowed from the mystery religions nor introduced from pagans after the conversion of Constantine. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices. The charge of paganism just doesn’t work.

Think back to the ANE worldview. What did they believe regarding God that was in stark contrast to how God revealed Himself to be to the Hebrew people? Notice that this is the same pagan worldview that existed in Greece and Rome. It is, distilled, the root of paganism. Now look at the Catholic Church. Can you now see why through the centuries many have declared the RCC pagan?

Catholics affirm a pagan root to their Sacraments, but they hold that the “paganism” was cleansed when the church laid hold of the practices. But I’m saying that it is deeper than the Sacraments - although the Sacraments certainly prove a pagan ideology when compared to Scripture. Look at the practice of wearing the scapular. Look at last rites. There is so much that is reflective of paganism it is sad (and you can’t cop out with “it means something else” because your definitions are the same).

Yes, Lakeside…historical truth prevails over Catholic mythology. And yes, even more the Truth of the Word of God prevails. Most devout Catholics are blinded by their own tradition, histories, and ever-changing doctrines. They have eaten what was served, drank the Kool-Aid, and now are at the mercies of Rome for “salvation.” If you have ever studied ANE paganism then you would be astounded at how helpful the RCC is in providing a contemporary model.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Think back to the ANE worldview. What did they believe regarding God that was in stark contrast to how God revealed Himself to be to the Hebrew people? Notice that this is the same pagan worldview that existed in Greece and Rome. It is, distilled, the root of paganism. Now look at the Catholic Church. Can you now see why through the centuries many have declared the RCC pagan?

Catholics affirm a pagan root to their Sacraments, but they hold that the “paganism” was cleansed when the church laid hold of the practices. But I’m saying that it is deeper than the Sacraments - although the Sacraments certainly prove a pagan ideology when compared to Scripture. Look at the practice of wearing the scapular. Look at last rites. There is so much that is reflective of paganism it is sad (and you can’t cop out with “it means something else” because your definitions are the same).

Yes, Lakeside…historical truth prevails over Catholic mythology. And yes, even more the Truth of the Word of God prevails. Most devout Catholics are blinded by their own tradition, histories, and ever-changing doctrines. They have eaten what was served, drank the Kool-Aid, and now are at the mercies of Rome for “salvation.” If you have ever studied ANE paganism then you would be astounded at how helpful the RCC is in providing a contemporary model.

Young man....where you ever a Catholic?

 

[JonC]

Young man....where you ever a Catholic?

No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once or twice.

I was never Mormon, either. But that does not prevent me from looking at their doctrine and judging it against the Word of God. Neither does it prevent me from looking at history and comparing it to their mythology. I'm not Catholic...I'm allowed to do that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once or twice.

I was never Mormon, either. But that does not prevent me from looking at their doctrine and judging it against the Word of God. Neither does it prevent me from looking at history and comparing it to their mythology. I'm not Catholic...I'm allowed to do that.

Ahhhhhh, what!?! Do I detect attitude?

 

[JonC]

Ahhhhhh, what!?! Do I detect attitude?

:laugh: No...no attitude....getting ready for church and pulling the Boston Butt out of the smoker....(I'm not Jewish either)

On a serious note, they do have an astounding pagan worldview. I have friends who are Catholic (that's how I learned about the scapular....it was foreign to me), and it does sadden me, but they have a pagan outlook of God. I don't know any other way to say it. It is an ANE view of God - with man/church controlling the modes through which God operates.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yea well they need to be "blown out " from the inside.....and that would be by people who are in right relationships with Christ. Thats a daunting task! Not for the faint of heart. I know someone right now who is doing that. Hope it doesn't kill him.

 

[lakeside]

JonC, you really can say pagan practices begun in the Gospel where the woman with the hemorrhage touches the fringe of Jesus' cloak and is healed. Then in Acts, there are the sick who just wanted St. Peter's shadow to fall on them. Efficacious in all cases. So if there was EVER any lack of respectability with relics/miracles it was introduced by the Reformers.

 

[JonC]

Yea well they need to be "blown out " from the inside.....and that would be by people who are in right relationships with Christ. Thats a daunting task! Not for the faint of heart. I know someone right now who is doing that. Hope it doesn't kill him.

I don't know that one with the right relationship with Christ could stay in the Catholic Church (I don't understand how someone could be in a right relationship with the RCC and with Christ - unless you mean "undercover"). All that I've known who have been saved while attending a RCC quickly left - they studied Scripture and arrived at the gospel. I don't think that the RCC is going anywhere soon.

On a side note - there is a sign on the bathroom door at the Catholic Church by my home. It reads "Minors must be accompanied by a guardian, no exceptions." I know that sin is not limited to the RCC, but by the mere nature of their religion...should it not be expected?

 

[JonC]

JonC, you really can say pagan practices begun in the Gospel where the woman with the hemorrhage touches the fringe of Jesus' cloak and is healed. Then in Acts, there are the sick who just wanted St. Peter's shadow to fall on them. Efficacious in all cases. So if there was EVER any lack of respectability with relics/miracles it was introduced by the Reformers.

I don't get your connection. Christ healed the woman who touched the fringe of His cloak. He also put mud on the eyes of the blind man. We don't know that people were healed by Peter's shadow falling on them (it was noted what people were doing, and it was custom that a great person's shadow - both evil and good people - was powerful....but your assumption is not warranted).

I did not say anything about relics (although I do believe it, in practice, to be idolatry....but that's another topic that you're introducing here).

 

[lakeside]

JonC, What would your idea of "paganism"of the Catholic Church be?

If, for instance you consider the Classical tradition to be "pagan", then you will have to part with any number of things in our culture which likewise have "pagan roots", such as:

- Our alphabet (Phoenician)
- The English language (an amalgamation of pagan tongues, including those of German barbarian tribes and Viking (Norman) French)
- Any architecture containing arch or column
- Law
- Our system of government
- Literature
- Theater
- Philosophy
- Wedding Rings
- Agriculture
- Building Guilds
- Logic (well, you anti-Catholics won't mind seeing that one go)

You're more than welcome to go live in mud huts out in the wasteland and begin the task of rebuilding civilization absent those pernicious pagan influences.

Beyond that JonC you only need to read the Bible to know that the Catholic Church's roots are Jewish. Perhaps that is what you really object to.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't know that one with the right relationship with Christ could stay in the Catholic Church (I don't understand how someone could be in a right relationship with the RCC and with Christ - unless you mean "undercover"). All that I've known who have been saved while attending a RCC quickly left - they studied Scripture and arrived at the gospel. I don't think that the RCC is going anywhere soon.

Heck no...it can be done with impunity right out in the open. All you gotta do is be a part of the church which is quite simple....especially for a lapsed Catholic ....I mean they would do victory laps and the snoopy dance to get someone back. Ever see the commercials "Come back home " that would be child's play. They would probably even invite the labsed individual to their Bible studies and men's groups....invite him to join their clubs ( the Knights of Columbus) etc. Yea, would probably have cart Blanche.:laugh:

On a side note - there is a sign on the bathroom door at the Catholic Church by my home. It reads "Minors must be accompanied by a guardian, no exceptions." I know that sin is not limited to the RCC, but by the mere nature of their religion...should it not be expected?

Do you really think sexual deviency is not prevacive among non Catholics? Really???

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

JonC, What would your idea of "paganism"of the Catholic Church be?

If, for instance you consider the Classical tradition to be "pagan", then you will have to part with any number of things in our culture which likewise have "pagan roots", such as:

- Our alphabet (Phoenician)
- The English language (an amalgamation of pagan tongues, including those of German barbarian tribes and Viking (Norman) French)
- Any architecture containing arch or column
- Law
- Our system of government
- Literature
- Theater
- Philosophy
- Wedding Rings
- Agriculture
- Building Guilds
- Logic (well, you anti-Catholics won't mind seeing that one go)

You're more than welcome to go live in mud huts out in the wasteland and begin the task of rebuilding civilization absent those pernicious pagan influences.

Beyond that JonC you only need to read the Bible to know that the Catholic Church's roots are Jewish. Perhaps that is what you really object to.

Oh no....most Baptist absolutely love the Jews....where ya been Lakeside....haven't you been reading the posts on the subject:laugh:

 

[JonC]

JonC, What would your idea of "paganism"of the Catholic Church be?

I see why you misunderstood my comments and apologize for not making it clear. When I say that the Catholic Church is pagan in nature I am speaking of its worldview. ANE religion held that man could wield, through rites and rituals, the mode through which God would work. For example, an idol was not merely a representation of a thing. There were rites involved whereby the image became an idol. I am not making the connection between Catholics and idols, but between ANE worldviews and Catholics. Go forward to Rome. Roman paganism was very much akin to Catholic sacrament. I am not making the connection that it is the same (I'm not talking about idols and sacraments) but the worldview is the same. It is man (or the church) controlling the means by which God's actions are conveyed. Think back to God and the Hebrew religion. This was a revelation - a transcendent God that man cannot wield. Man's ritual was meaningless, his obedience however was crucial. This transcendence, in a very significant way, became immanence in the person of Christ as God's most complete revelation of Himself. But still, there is that distinct difference.

The Catholic Church carries a worldview that is pagan. My Catholic friends wear a scapular….just in case they die before receiving last rites. They believe Mary is a mediator. They confess to a priest their sins and believe in penance for those sins. They pray for their dead family members. They believe in a human vicar for Christ here on earth. They believe an infant’s original sin is cleansed with the sprinkling of water. Any and all of this stems from a pagan worldview (in fact, it cannot exist apart from a pagan worldview). That is what I’m talking about. The Catholic Church as we know it was born apostate.

 

[JonC]

Do you really think sexual deviency is not prevacive among non Catholics? Really???

No, I agree with you there.

 

[lakeside]

JonC, Earth, Wind and Fire, Mary is not venerated as a Goddess in Catholicism. I am sure you know this but I just want to make this clear for any other readers. There is a difference between the Hyperdulia offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Latria offered to God alone.

Saints are not looked upon in any way as some kind of pantheon of lesser gods. Again, a difference between latria and dulia. Nor do we see them as aspects of God.

Ritual. I'll give you that. We really don't like anything better than a good ritual, that carries spiritual significance, rather than empty ritual created merely to fill a requirement.

Praying to ''dead "saints { those in heaven are more alive than we are } was actually taking from Judaism, in fact much of the rituals and customs are Jewish. Catholicism is the completion of Judaism.

Telling our sins to a priest is very biblical, if you believe in the Words of Jesus { which I believe you do } Jesus gave this important authority to His Apostles and the apostles to other ordained clergy. Jesus came on earth not only for the 1st century Christians but also for all future generations.

As far as your remark about the Pope, your church has a limited geographical pope, your pastor. The Catholic Pope is a Pastor to the whole world population of Christians. All non-Catholic churches have there "little' popes. Jesus was a practicing Orthodox Jew even He believed in His Rabbi [ a kind of Pope ] Moses was the leader of His flock, Moses was a Pope.

I wear a scapular, when I was in the military I wore medal[ pagan in origin ] other military personal wore more medals than I including non-Catholics and Jews. You accept the wedding rings that members wear in your church, again pagan in origin passed on to the Catholic Church and accepted by all.

 

[Croyant]

I just discovered I have another big problem. While asking the pastor what the policy was about marriage, he said that it was only allowed to marry another evangelical.

This is actually a big predicament in a place where the evangelical congregations are very small and scarce like here and where virtually everyone is from a catholic background. Like I said, there are 0.5% of evangelicals, and when removing English-speaking communities it is much smaller.

In the same vein, there are almost no young adults, in any of the congregations I have seen. It is mostly all elderly and immigrants with their families.

This might be a deal breaker, because this is way too big a burden for me. It would mean I would have zero hope of marrying and would have to remain celibate all my life or else be disfellowshipped.

It's already difficult enough to meet a woman, but to have her accept to refrain from any cohabitation or intercourse until marriage, or to have her join a baptist church, which is viewed no differently than a cult here in the most secular part of western civilization, is impossible.

It's simply too big a price to pay and I can't stomach it. I'm really, really disappointed. It seems like an impossible situation.

 

[Salty]

I just discovered I have another big problem. While asking the pastor what the policy was about marriage, he said that it was only allowed to marry another evangelical. ...

Methinks your post is way off OP!

 

[Croyant]

I don't think so at all, because there are many factors to consider in either joining an evangelical community or remaining in the catholic church and some are practical but very important.

You might not think it's so reasonable... but I'm sure almost everyone here lives where there is a big proportion of evangelicals. When they're precious few it actually becomes a huge deal and it makes your life very difficult.

 

[JonC]

I don't think so at all, because there are many factors to consider in either joining an evangelical community or remaining in the catholic church and some are practical but very important.

You might not think it's so reasonable... but I'm sure almost everyone here lives where there is a big proportion of evangelicals. When they're precious few it actually becomes a huge deal and it makes your life very difficult.

I think it is reasonable. We are to "count the cost." I have friends who would have left the RCC long ago, but it would have cause discord with their family (their parents, in this case). Others couldn't leave because they felt that they were an integral part of that congregation. Their family and friends were Catholic...it would be almost like abandoning their entire culture...what they know. I know many who have left the RCC and they have told me of "losses" that they experienced (they counted them as gain, but it was not a painless move). So I can see how all of these issues would come into play.

 

[lakeside]

JonC I know a couple of Baptists ministers [ I was in a Baptist fundamental/evangelical church for approx. two and half years ] who would have left the Protestant religion long ago, but it would have cause discord with their family (their mature children, in this case). Others couldn't leave because they felt that they were an integral part of that congregation. Their family and friends were Baptist...it would be almost like abandoning their entire culture...what they know. I know many clergy seen on" EWTN " Coming Home Network that have left Protestantism { anybody that 'protests ' against God's earthly Church } and they have told me of "losses" that they experienced (they counted them as gain, but it was not a painless move). So I can see how all of these issues would come into play, especially for ministers.