Replacement Theology is cloaked anti-Semitism

You must make a decision regarding your own beliefs. Is Christ coming again or not. There are many references in the Bible to the birth of Christ, and Christ did come. There are over 300 promises that Christ will come a second time. When He comes a second time He will come for the nation of Israel itself. That is not to say that Christians will not share in the blessings of the second coming of Christ. They will. But the Second Coming of Christ is specifically centered around the Jewish nation.

Zechariah 2:10-12 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.

The Lord says: I come. I will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. You shall know that the Lord of host has sent me unto you. The Lord shall inherit Judah. He shall choose Jerusalem again.
Christ is coming again. The emphasis is on the nation of Israel.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK,

I do believe Christ is coming again. But I don't believe that is what Romans 11 is about. I think the misunderstanding of the passage is in the phrasing.

The use of the word "so" is not merely superfluous, rather it refers to the O.T. quotation from Isaiah 59 which imediately follows, thus describing the manner of the salvation, i.e. through the Deliverer.

Saying that "all shall" be saved, is not a prophecy, but rather proclaims an obligation, just as "You shall not kill" is not a prediction, but states an obligation upon "you". Thus the obligation is placed upon "all Israel" to be saved by the Deliverer promised in the O.T.

So Paul is reaffirming that salvation is in Christ alone, a warning to any Jews who rested their confidence in their ethnicity and their heritage from OT times. Paul reminds them that Isaiah had already prophesied the necessity of salvation in Christ long ago.

Then regarding the promise of the restoration of Israel from OT prophecies--they have been fulfilled in the restoration of Israel from the Babylonian captivity. Israel was restored to their land to prepare the way for the coming Messiah and the subsequent establishment of His spiritual kingdom. Even many OT prophecies tie together the first advent of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom. And of course, the soon coming of the kingdom is a major theme of the NT.

In Christ,

Tim

 

Your argument is out of silence, and you are reading into Scripture that which is not there. In every other place in Scripture Paul conditions salvation with belief in the Saviour. For example, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." "Whosoever shall call upon he name of the Lord shall be saved." No such statement is made here. No such condition is made here. It is a statement of fact. All Israel shall be saved! That is a promise; a fact; without condition, i.e, unconditional. Whether they believe at the present time or not, they will as a nation, in the future believe and be saved. This is a fact. You cannot read into the Scripture "If they trust Christ." It doesn't say that. You "wrest the Scriptures"...and I won't quote the rest of the verse. You are adding to it. It says that they shall be saved. It is a declarative statement put in the future statement. Was it General McArthur who said: "I shall return!" Was it a statement or a promise or a prophecy or all of the above? Did he return? Man is fallible. Does fallible man keep his promises? He is able to. Does the infallible sinless perfect Almighty infinite God keep His promises to mankind: both Jew and Gentile? Absolutely--100% of the time.

IMHO, This position is absurd. When will Israel be restored? The theme runs through the OT prophecies time and time again, not to speak of what the NT says on the subject.

Jeremiah 31:23-24 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
24And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.

This is their restoration. Do they yet dwell in ALL the cities of the land. Does the above description sound like the Israel of today??

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
This covenant did not take place at Pentecost. It has not been fulfilled yet.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Is God's law in all the hearts of the Israelites? Is God now their God, i.e., are they all now saved? Look carefully at verse 34. "For they shall all know me." Do all the neighbors (the world) know (have a personal relationship) with the Lord? This is generally speaking. We know that a minority will not. Is this our world today? A theocracy ruled by Christ and Israel, with Christianity the predominant and only religion of the world. It is against the law to worship any other but Christ. Have you seen this fulfillment? This is what happens when Israel is restored to her country.
Do you want more? I can fill the pages of this thread with prophecies from almost every prophet that point to this one great event--the restoration of Israel and the coming of Christ--both of which are uniquely tied together, such as one (the restoration) cannot take place without the other (the second coming).
DHK

 

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

Fulfilled at the time of Christ:

2 Corinthians 3
1 Are we beginning again to commend ourselves? or need we, as do some, epistles of commendation to you or from you?
2 Ye are our epistle, written in our hearts , known and read of all men;
3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink , but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh .

34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

Fulfilled:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God . Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.


their sin will I remember no more

Are anyone's sins remembered in the New Covenant?

The writer of Hebrews talking about Christ as
Priest quotes Jeremiah:


Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.


Heb. 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,
17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

I feel we are going around in circles on this. It seems to boil down to who you believe the Israel of God is.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/MauroArchive/mh-19.html

From the book "The Hope Of Israel" by Philip Mauro (1922)

 

How can you say this is fulfilled, with not a word of explanation? Look again:
for they shall all know me
ALL means all. All the world does not know Christ; all the world doesn't even know "about" Christ let alone know Christ in a personal way. If you believe that, then you are living in a dream world. This has never happened in all of history. How can you ever say that it has been fulfilled. It will only be fulfilled when Christ comes again and sets up his Millennial Kingdom.
DHK

 

I don't have to explain it John does it for us:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God . Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.

All means all the elect. Be careful how you interpret words like all and world. Otherwise you have Caesar Agustus registering people in Australia and the Hawaiian islands in Luke 2:1.

 

DHK,

So now you quote the phrase "All Israel shall be saved" without the citation from Isaiah 59 at the end and drop off the "so" from the beginning. You quote it out of it's context, then tell me I'm wresting the Scripture.

The word "so" means "in this manner". Isaiah 59 describes the manner of their salvation. Therefore the statement IS QUALIFIED, it is NOT UNCONDITIONAL.

If the statement meant All (100%) of the nation of Israel will be saved--then why do you limit it to all the nation which is alive when Christ returns? That's not 100% of the nation of Israel.

Finally, "shall" can have the idea of obligation". When God told Israel "You shall have no other Gods before me", he wasn't predicting they would never be idolators-rather He was laying down an obligation.

Tim

[ December 23, 2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Tim ]

 

John 6:45-47 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Why do you even quote this passage? Certainly Jesus referred to it. He said: "It is written in the prophets." He did not say or even intimate that it was fulfilled or being fulfilled. He makes it clear that he that "believeth on me hath everlasting life." Not everything in the passage that Christ was quoting was applicable to that time and age. This quite common in most prophecies.
Take for example Joel 2:28-32. Much of that passage was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. But much of that passage will not be fulfilled until Christ comes again in the Millennial Kingdom.

The sun has not turned to darkness and the moon has not turned to blood. The great and terrible day of the Lord (the Tribulation) has not come.

Joel 2:31-32 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

But just previous to these verses are the prophecies that were fulfilled at Pentecost.

Again, Can you point to a time in history where all the world, even the known world has recognized that Christ is Lord, has known and accepted him as Lord.
If not, then the prophecy in Jeremiah is still future. Just because Jesus quoted the verse does not mean that it is fulfilled. He never said that it was fulfilled, never even inferred that it was.
DHK

 

No, it doesn't sound like modern Israel. It sounds like Israel after the Babylonian captivity. God restored them to their land before the time of Christ. Then at their rejection of Christ, the nation was judged again. That time more thoroughly.

But in the midst of that judgement at the hands of the Romans, God preserved a faithful remnant of Israel and was thus 100% faithful to His promises to them.

Tim

Tim

 

Let's look at the entire quote from Paul and see what he is saying:

Romans 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
--Paul doesn't want us to be ignorant about these things.
Israel is still in existence. Israel has not been replaced. Don't be wise in your own conceits--apparently some believed just that--a form of replacement theology. Paul rebukes them: Don't be wise in your wise in your own conceits. There still exists the nation of Israel. But what has happened? "Blindness in part is happened to Israel." For how long? "Until the fulness of the Gentiles ge come in." Has that happened yet? No, of course not. In this day and age of grace, God still reaches out to the Gentiles. It indeed the times of the Genitiles. And their time is not up yet up. But God will deal again with the nation of Israel. Israel has not been replaced; just set aside for a temporary period of time.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
--The Deliverer for the nation of Israel will indeed come. He will come again, and all Israel will turn to Him and be saved. They will as a nation be saved. All throughout the Old Testament God has promised David that He would preserve a remnant for David's sake. It is this remnant that is spoken of here. They will be saved at the end of the Tribulation Period before the Coming of Christ.
Israel is very ungodly right now. The deliverer will turn away the ungodliness from Jacob (the other name for Israel).

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Notice this is God's covenant with Israel, not with the church. God will take away their sin when Christ comes again and sets up His Kingdom. That is what is referred to here.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
--They were the enemies of the gospel in the respect that they rejected the gospel and rejected Christ the first time He came.
But as touching the election they are the beloved. They are still the apple of God's eye. They still play an important part in God's redemptive plan. God has not cast them off forever. They have not been replaced. The Lord will come for them. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
DHK

 

I love how futurist always want to split up passages and even a verse into two time-frames.

Notice these OT verses describing PAST events.

Judgement on Egypt(530BC)
Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light .
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Fall of Babylon(539BC)
Is. 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.


Fall of Israel
Amos 8: 8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? yea, it shall rise up wholly like the River; and it shall be troubled and sink again, like the River of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord Jehovah, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

Judgement on Nineveh
Nahum 1

1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
2 Jehovah is a jealous God and avengeth; Jehovah avengeth and is full of wrath; Jehovah taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt ; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.


Judgement on Edom
Is. 34: 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll ; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.
5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Compare with
Rev. 6:14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Davids flight from the Anger of Saul
Ps.18: 4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled ; The foundations also of the mountains quaked And were shaken, because he was wroth.
8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, And fire out of his mouth devoured: Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his hiding-place, his pavilion round about him, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies

Now knowing how God used this type of apocalytic language to describe His judgements in the OT, is it too hard to imagine Him using the same, familiar language to describe coming judgement in the NT?

Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness , and the moon into blood , before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be saved;

1st century jews understood this language, therefore understood its meaning. Is verse 32 still future? Can someone today call upon the name of the Lord and be saved? Or is that future as well?

How about this from Matthew:

Matt. 24: 29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

You think those 1st century Jews who spent their entire life reading and studing OT scriptures understood this? I do.

 

Can you demonstrate this both Biblically and historically?
After the Captivity, Judah was permitted to return to the land and rebuild. The operative word here is "permitted." You can read about this in Ezra and Nehemiah. They did so with much opposition. It was not the peace of Jerusalem that Christ promised them. Even then, when some of them returned, most were still scattered throughout Syria and Babylon. Percentage wise it was just a few that had returned.
Thus on the Day of Pentecost you can count the number of nations that the Jews came from (as many as 13 in all) that came to this Jewish feast. They did not all return to Jerusalem. Very few did. The Scripture was not fulfilled, at any time before the time of Christ, or at any time since. The Jews have been the most hated and persecuted nation in the world--and you dare to say they live or have lived in peace??? Regrettably, only the opposite has been true.
DHK

 

I love how futurist always want to split up passages and even a verse into two time-frames.

Notice these OT verses describing PAST events. </font>[/QUOTE]Not all the passages you quoted to refer to past events. I am sorry that you allegorize so much of Scripture. I don't. The J.W.'s allegorize or spiritualize the Resurrection of Jesus Christ saying that it was only a spirit resurrection, and not bodily. Do you do the same with the resurrection as you do with these passages? Why not?
DHK

 

Really, which ones? If you admit that some do, did the sun go dark? Did the Hills melt? Why do you have a problem with God using this type of language to describe Judgement on nations and peoples? Does it mess up your eschatology?

Not sure this is relevant to apocalyptic language but if you want to change the subject I understand. Of course it was bodily. Why? Because scripture teaches it.

 

Really, which ones? If you admit that some do, did the sun go dark? Did the Hills melt? Why do you have a problem with God using this type of language to describe Judgement on nations and peoples? Does it mess up your eschatology?</font>[/QUOTE]No, I have learned to take everything in its own context. There is a time to take things figuratively, and a time not to. All too often some are too quick to spiritualize when there is no need to.

Judgement on Egypt(530BC)
Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light .
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.
--Agreed, This is a very descriptive judgement on Pharaoh of Egypt where Ezekiel uses much imagery and metaphors, as he does through much of his book.

Fall of Babylon(539BC)
Is. 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their
light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to
shine.
--A past event? No. This is future. Look at the context.
Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
--The Day of the Lord, most often refers to the judgement day at the end times before the Coming of Christ. The Day of the Lord refers often to the Tribulation Period, the Time of Jacob's Trouble. The Day of the Lord often refers to the Coming of Christ Himself. Nevertheless it is still a future event.

Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
--More evidence. It referst to the Tribulation Period right before the coming of Christ, a time when the Lord "will punish the world for their evil" just as this passage refers. This is a future event. Definitely.

Fall of Israel
Amos 8: 8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? yea, it shall rise up wholly like the River; and it shall be troubled and sink again, like the River of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord Jehovah, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

Though it is possible it may be a purely descriptive judgement against the nation of Israel, one must keep their mind open to the possiblility of other interpretations. David Guzik in his commentary says:

Nahum 1
1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

2 Jehovah is a jealous God and avengeth; Jehovah avengeth and is full of wrath; Jehovah taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt ; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
--Agreed. These verses are descriptive. But why? Nahum was a prophet sent to a heathen country, Nineveh, like Jonah was. He is describing to these ungodly people the sovereignty and omnipotence of Jehovah. No doubt he uses very descriptive language in doing so. Context is everything.

Judgement on Edom
Is. 34: 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll ; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.

5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
--Chapter 34 and 35 speak of the judgement of the enemies of Israel, perhaps in very descriptive terms. But put it all in its context. Look toward the end of chapter 35:

10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with singing and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

This is still future; still yet to come. There will be no more sorrow and sighing. And yet it is an earthly scene, not a heavenly one. It speaks of the Millennial Kingdom to come.

Rev. 6:14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
--And so shall it be during the Tribulation Period, no doubt right near the end of it, just before Christ comes again. Many other NT passages corroborate with this same passage that there will be tremendous astral, seismic, and geological pheonomena happening in the end times. Men shall see signs and wonders in the end times.

Davids flight from the Anger of Saul
Ps.18: 4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled ; The foundations also of the mountains quaked And were shaken, because he was wroth.
8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, And fire out of his mouth devoured: Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his hiding-place, his pavilion round about him, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies

Again context is everything. You identified part of it, why not the rest? It is David's Psalm, a poem set to music. Poetry almost always has imagery and figurative and descriptive language employed.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness , and the moon into blood , before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be saved;

Of course it is future. How the sun is turned into darkness we don't know. God doesn't say. Perhaps he will use an eclipse. The same is true for the moon turning into blood, or the color thereof. But it will happen in the future during the Tribulation Period. I do not doubt the veracity of God's Word.

Matt. 24: 29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

The verse you quoted speaks directly of the Tribulation, and the events associated with it.
Did the Jews of that day understand all this? No. They could not even fathom the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They could not understand the simple gospel message. Jesus went through all the OT prophecies concerning himself with two of his disciples o the road to Damascus. That is a lot of Scripture. Only when He broke bread with them, did they recognize who he was and believe. Very few understood His words. His disciples continually came to Him asking the meaning of His parables, even when he quoted from the OT prophets. No, I don't believe they understood what Jesus was speaking about. Hindsight is better than foresight.
DHK

 

DHK,

Again, your post demonstrates that you are reading this passage through dispensational lenses. You have defined things in particular ways that the text doesn't warrent.

For example:

1. "till the fullness of the gentiles be come in"
You have assumed that this phrase describes some future day when God is finished with the gentiles and returns His attention to the Jews (a la Scofield).

But it simply says that God had blinded ethnic Israel for a time until the congregation of the people of God (I'd use the word "church" here, but I'll refrain) was full of gentiles. Something that clearly had happened within the first century.

2. "all Israel shall be saved"
You assume that this is referring to a future salvation of the modern nation of Israel (again a la Scofield).

But Paul had previously made it clear that not all Jews were considered truly Israel. Not all the seed of Abraham were his heirs (Rom. 9:6-8).
He is simply still dealing with that issue in Rom. 11--i.e. only those Jews who turn to the Deliverer will be saved.

3. You also assume that the citation from Isaiah 59 (Rom. 11:26,27) refers to events in our time or beyond, rather than the events playing out in Paul's own time.

But Christ established the New Covenant with Israel (that which actually remitted their sins-- Mat. 26:28) at His death. We don't call it the New Testament for nothing.

4. Finally, you assume the Israel and the church must be two separate entities (again a la Scofield).

But the New Testament NEVER EVEN ONCE demands such a separation. Faithful Israel BECAME the church, as the entire book of Acts demonstrates, and as the epistles consistently confirm (including a proper reading of the book of Romans in its entirety).

DHK,
I know what I'm saying probably sounds like a foreign language--it used to sound that way to me. But when I stopped loooking in the Scripture for prooftexts of what I already had been taught, and read it afresh--the big picture came into focus.

National Israel was chosen for a particular time and purpose, but spiritual Israel was always the ultimate goal--and we (gentiles) are grafted into it.

"Unto [God] be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end." (Eph. 3:21)

Have a blessed Christmas,

Tim

 

I didn't take the time to plow though this whole thread but did any one look at Acts 1:6-7?

Acts 1:6-7
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power

Personally, I take this as a yes answer that Israel will be restored, but also a “not for you to know when” qualification.

To me it seems well within the character of God as well as scriptural for Him to redeem his ancient people Israel and restore them to a place of leadership among the nations when He returns to his home town.

Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

HankD

 

You may identify yourself with "spiritual Israel." I have no problem with that. Replacement Theology goes far beyond that. It claims that the nation itself has been replaced. Go to the nation of Israel, and gather some of the more orthodox Jews around you and tell them that they no longer exist as a nation. See what reaction you will get. Hate mongering. Anti-semitism. The Catholics believe this. Did you ever wonder the Catholics did not give any assistance to the Jews during the holocaust? They "the Church" have replaced the nation of Israel. To this day they feel there is no need of evangelizing the Jew. Go down to the Other Religions forum and start a thread on Replacement Theology there, and ask some of these specfic questions there. You will find the anti-semitism crop up among certain if not many of the Catholic apologists. Furthermore, as to the Scriptures themselves please explain this one verse:

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

If you can tell me in history when this has happened you may have a point. If you can't your theology is very precarious to say the least. The Millennial Kingdom is yet to come when Christ will rule, when such a time will come when there will be perfect harmony in nature such as the wolf and the lamb shall feed together. This isn't talking about modern day Zoos.
DHK

 

Either it is a past event or you believe the Medes will be reborn and destroy Babylon again. Verse 17 tells us who God uses to accomplish His judgement on Babylon. That is the "context".

Also in verse 6 it says "at hand". Of course you will tell you "at hand" is many years in the future. in this case it would be about 2500 years. So when you read "at hand" in reference to when something is to happen, it is meaningless.

Merry Christmas

 

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

2Thes.2:2 says distinctly that the Day of Christ is at hand. That does not necessarily mean that the Day of Christ will be tonight, this week or this month. The Day of Christ is imminent. It could be tonight; it could be in another century or two—perhaps longer. The Bible says that He is coming soon; that is all. His coming in nigh; near; at hand.
Thus to impose an artificial time limit on the phrase “at hand” as you have with Isaiah 13:6, is to put restraints on a sovereign God. It was the Lord Himself who said:

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty

Most prophecies of the Old Testament have both a near and a far reaching fulfillment—a double fulfillment if you will. This may have had an application back in the sixth century before Christ. But its ultimate fulfillment will come at the Tribulation Period, when the Day of the Lord will be at hand. When it shall come. When, as verse 11 tells us:

Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

The entire world will be punished for their evil and wickedness. The world was not punished back then, but it will be in the future.
DHK