Replacement Theology is cloaked anti-Semitism

[KenH]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
a Civil War (decidedly won by those opposed to terrorism)

If you are talking about the War Between the States, I must totally disagree with you. But I mention that only in passing as that's a topic for the History Forum.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Ken, realize the times.

I was not saying which eschatological interpretation is or isn't correct(if any of them are even close to being correct). I was simply giving a good reference for the history of how Southern Baptist thought has changed in various ways over the centuries.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DD: RIGHT NOW ISRAEL IS ANTICHRIST!

LE: You preached that from the pulpit of a Baptist church? </font>[/QUOTE]DD: I preached that from the pulpit of an Independant Fundamental Baptist church. How do you argue with that. I even told you the scripture. Read 1 John 4. Those who deny that Christ is complete deity and humanity are ANTICHRIST. The problem is that it tears down your unbibilical ideas. </font>[/QUOTE]

To all IFB Pastors: Be careful who you let be your pulpit supply! Guard your sheep!

 

[KenH]

What's the problem with the statement, LadyEagle, other than the fact it is a bit too broad? The Bible teaches that anyone, Jew or Gentile, who denies that Jesus is God in the flesh is antiChrist. But not everyone in the modern political state of Israel is antiChrist as there are some Christians living there.

1 John 2:22-23 (ESV)
[22]Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. [23] No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

1 John 4:2-3 (ESV)
[2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Ken, realize the times. Postmill was popular because of the strength of the reformation. People thought that the Church was on the rise. I guess 2 World Wars, a Civil War (decidedly won by those opposed to terrorism), a Korean War, a Vietnam War, a war on the unborn, etc., kind of removed the optimism of people.

Funny how truth (that times will get worse) actually is true.

Another case unfortunately of the church following the world, rather than the other way around.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Bethelassoc]

Going by what scripture teaches, from OT prophecy to NT fulfillment, we would see that the term "Replacement" Theology doesn't make sense.

Jeremiah spoke of a new covenant that God would make with the house of Israel. Now, if we follow logic, we'll see that that fulfillment took place with Christ and his 12 (were they gentile? no.) apostles, who preached to who? The lost sheep of ISRAEL.

How we fail to see the relationship between the OT and NT. Nobody was replaced, that's like saying Christ replaced (destroyed) the law. He didn't replace it but fulfill it.

It bothers us to "change" our viewpoint when it was taught to us through "grandma and grandpa" doctrine.

 

[LadyEagle]

I did not coin the phrase "Replacement Theology." In fact, I never even heard of it until I came to this board.

So, when using the term "Replacement Theology" this is my understanding of what the term means (not my words):

The Church is a Continuation of Israel

The dominant view in Christianity has been that the Church is the New Israel, a continuation of the concept of Israel from the Old Testament. This view teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in biblical, literal, Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Land of Promise are "spiritualized" into promises of God's blessing for the Church. The prophecies of condemnation and judgment, however, still remain for national Israel and the Jewish people. This view has been called Replacement Theology because the Church replaces Israel in the program of God. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, there being no future for the Jewish nation, how do we account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people, Israel's rebirth among the gentile nations, victories in major wars with the Arabs and a flourishing modern democratic Jewish state?


The Church is Totally Different and Distinct from Israel
Although being suppressed throughout the history of the Church, the view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Eph. 1:9-11). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel, the covenants, promises and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion. The Lord has preserved the Jewish people through great persecutions, though they are largely in unbelief.

After the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:16-18) God will restore Israel. The first event at this time is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble," also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a horrible period of seven years, which begins moderately during the first half then intensifies in full during the latter half. The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital as Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5).

This is at the link I provided in the OP.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
So, when using the term "Replacement Theology" this is my understanding of what the term means (not my words):

Don't always get your definitions from those who oppose the position you are trying to define. Instead, get the definitions first hand. I don't go to Mormons to find out what JWs believe, I don't to to a Ford dealership to find out what Chevy's are like, I don't ask a rap artist about classical piano.

God bless,
Brian

 

[LadyEagle]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
1) how do we account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people,

2)Israel's rebirth among the gentile nations,

3)victories in major wars with the Arabs

4)and a flourishing modern democratic Jewish state?

1)What's been supernatural about it?

2)The United Nations and wanting to do something for Jews as a result of the Nazi holacaust.

3)A superior military with better equipment and superior officers and leaders.

4)Democratic values and capitalism.

Of course, God rules over all of the affairs of mankind in all nations and people groups. God is sovereign.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:

My point is that the place you got that quote from is a premill/pretrib website. I've found that most premill/pretrib websites don't really accurately represent other viewpoints. It sounds like that particular site clumps everyone who is not premill/pretrib together into "replacement theology", which is really not accurate at all. If you want to know if a non-pretrib/premill person "replaces" Israel with the church, ask *them* instead of asking someone who is pretrib/premill. That's all I mean.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:

My point is that the place you got that quote from is a premill/pretrib website. I've found that most premill/pretrib websites don't really accurately represent other viewpoints. It sounds like that particular site clumps everyone who is not premill/pretrib together into "replacement theology", which is really not accurate at all. If you want to know if a non-pretrib/premill person "replaces" Israel with the church, ask *them* instead of asking someone who is pretrib/premill. That's all I mean.

God bless,
Brian </font>[/QUOTE]The first law of effective debate is that you must describe your opponent's position in such a way that he agrees that your description is what he actually believes.

I've found that many pre-trib, pre-millers don't do that. But those who do, I'm willing to listen to. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
To all IFB Pastors: Be careful who you let be your pulpit supply! Guard your sheep!

Exactly. Hyperdispensationalists should all be rebuked.

Ladyeagle, where do people go who reject Christ? Do they get eternal life, or eternal death? Is it the same for both Jews and Gentiles?

You keep ignoring 1 John 4 (not surprisingly).

 

[LadyEagle]

My answer is in the thread you started:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001950

 

[LadyEagle]

DD: You have enlightened me. I assumed all IFB beliefs were the same. Apparently not. And I guess if Southern Baptists now believe the same as you, I won't be joining the SBC church I've been attending even though I like it and the young pastor (who was educated at Tennessee Temple), but I don't want to put my tithe in a church that is affiliated with an organization who believes the nation of Israel is anti-Christ or if the official SBC position is Replacement Theology.

So I guess I'll start looking for a GARBC church because this is what I believe, too:

XVIII. Israel
We believe in the sovereign selection of Israel as God's eternal covenant people, that she is now dispersed because of her disobedience and rejection of Christ, and that she will be regathered in the Holy Land and, after the completion of the Church, will be saved as a nation at the second advent of Christ. Genesis 13:14-17; Romans 11:1-32; Ezekiel 37.


XIX. Rapture and Subsequent Events

We believe in the premillennial return of Christ, an event which can occur at any moment, and that at that moment the dead in Christ shall be raised in glorified bodies, and the living in Christ shall be given glorified bodies without tasting death, and all shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the seven years of the Tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 51-54; Philippians 3:20, 21; Revelation 3:10.

We believe that the Tribulation, which follows the Rapture of the Church, will be culminated by the revelation of Christ in power and great glory to sit upon the throne of David and to establish the millennial kingdom. Daniel 9:25-27; Matthew 24:29-31; Luke 1:30-33; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11:1-9; Acts 2:29, 30; Revelation 20:1-4, 6.

GARBC

A Baptist is not a Baptist is not a Baptist. No wonder the world thinks Christians are nuts - Baptists can't even get their act together in one accord. Now there are differences in IFBs!

Even so, Come, Lord Jesus. (sigh)

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Lady Eagle,

There are probably not two Southern Baptists who will agree with each other about everything. Just because I believe something does not mean Daniel does. Certainly after all this time on the Baptist Board, you know this to be true.

You should go to the pastor of your local Southern Baptist Church and ask him what he believes and then pray and study the Bible for yourself and see if it lines up.

A question about GARBC beleifs:

Are they saying that they believe that all Jews and all of Israel will be saved in the end?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

For many, many years I was taught in Premillennial churches that folks who hold other eschatological views are liberals, heretics, etc.

While I appreciate the Premillennial position (not necessarily all the hyper-dispy stuff), I have come to resent the one-sided, biased, and frankly, dishonest, presentation that seems almost universal in IFB and other fundamental churches. Because, for awhile, they had me believing that other Godly Christians were some sort of liberals or heretics.

I don't necessarily endorse everything on this website, but here is a link to just one site that will show very serious, Godly Christians presenting a different eschatological point of view:

http://www.postmillennialism.com

 

[KenH]

Here's another good site about the post-trib vs. pre-trib debate - www.lasttrumpet.com

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
if the official SBC position is Replacement Theology.

LadyEagle,

First, each SBC congregation is autonomous. No one can tell it what to teach. The only tie-in for all of these congregations is that they give to the Cooperative Program. The tie-in is financial, not theological.

Second, it has been my experience that the vast majority of Southern Baptists in the pew believe as you do concerning eschatology.

 

[Daniel David]

LadyEagle, I just want to point out that I am very opposed to "replacement theology". I despise it. I am against all forms of amill, postmill, and preterism.

You apparently do not understand this issue enough to know when to not accuse a person of something they don't believe.