What do those who say tat the Abrahamic covenant applies to the physical descendants of Abraham (the Jews) rather the spiritual (the Church) make of Rom 9:6-9?
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
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Replacement Theology is cloaked anti-Semitism
- Thread starter LadyEagle
- Start date
Daniel David
New Member
Matt, the promises to the physical descendants will only be realized by those who embrace Christ. No unsaved Jew will have ever experience those promises.
That is Paul's point in Galatians 3. The promises to the many are only realized through the One, namely Christ.
Interesting thread and already some conclusions - that Baptists DO NOT AGREE with each other. BTW, MODERATORS on the BB do not agree with each other on a whole lot of areas, too!
I do see a great problem (apart from the covenant nonsense on which post/a mill "theology" is based - there, that doesn't show any prejudice on my part, right?) in getting mutually acceptable definitions.
Probably a new thread to simply hash out some basic definitions would be wise.
I do see a great problem (apart from the covenant nonsense on which post/a mill "theology" is based - there, that doesn't show any prejudice on my part, right?) in getting mutually acceptable definitions.
Probably a new thread to simply hash out some basic definitions would be wise.
Did you think the answer was going to be different from the multitudes of other times I have answered this question?? The answers are found all through the prophets of Scripture. They all center on the land and restoration to it in peace with a David ruler over the Kingdom of God on earth. It is repeated in the NT as proof that the NT church was not the kingdom and should not be confused with it. The promises haven't changed; God hasn't changed; he still intends to fulfil them.
LadyEagly has made some very good point, and some accurate ones.
Replacement Theology is born out of a covenantal theology, not necessarily what eschatological position you hold. The latter is irrelevant.
Replacement Theology is a dangerous doctrine, anti-semitic in its teaching and totally unbiblical. It teaches that the church has replaced the nation of Israel. This, of course is not true. If it is, then which of you can tell me what tribe you come from? We are not Jews. We do not descend from the nation of Israel. We have not replaced the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel is alive and well today. It is that nation over there in the mideast that causes so much trouble with Palestinians (or vice-versa. It became a nation (politically in the world's eyes in 1948). It always has been a nation in God's eyes. It has never been replaced by the church or anyone else.
When the law ended and the age of grace began, according to Paul, the nation of Israel has been blinded for a season, "set on shelf" if you will. It has not been replaced; it has been set aside. It still has a great role to play in God's redemptive history.
Paul says in Romans 11:26 "So then, all Israel shall be saved." This is still a future event. The nation of Israel (the remnant that remains in the future) will all be saved when Christ comes. For that to happen there must be a nation present. The church has not replaced it. In Revelation 1:7, it tells us that they that pierced him shall mourn because of Him at his coming. When Christ comes, the nation of Israel will be here waiting for Him. They have not been replaced by the church. If you allegorize this you may as well allegorize the ressurrection just as the J.W.'s do. What is to prevent you from doing so.
The anti-semitism comes in this way. It is inherently anti-semitic for it gives no reason to witness to the Jew for God has done away with them. They are damned. They have been replaced. The Muslims love this doctrine and also believe in it. The believe that as Christians believe the church has "replaced" Judaism, so they (Islam) will replace Christianity. And that is their goal. Not only to kill Judaism, but to replace Christianity, and to become the one world-wide religion in this world. They definitely believe in replacement theology. It is a demonic anti-semitic heresy.
DHK
Replacement Theology is born out of a covenantal theology, not necessarily what eschatological position you hold. The latter is irrelevant.
Replacement Theology is a dangerous doctrine, anti-semitic in its teaching and totally unbiblical. It teaches that the church has replaced the nation of Israel. This, of course is not true. If it is, then which of you can tell me what tribe you come from? We are not Jews. We do not descend from the nation of Israel. We have not replaced the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel is alive and well today. It is that nation over there in the mideast that causes so much trouble with Palestinians (or vice-versa. It became a nation (politically in the world's eyes in 1948). It always has been a nation in God's eyes. It has never been replaced by the church or anyone else.
When the law ended and the age of grace began, according to Paul, the nation of Israel has been blinded for a season, "set on shelf" if you will. It has not been replaced; it has been set aside. It still has a great role to play in God's redemptive history.
Paul says in Romans 11:26 "So then, all Israel shall be saved." This is still a future event. The nation of Israel (the remnant that remains in the future) will all be saved when Christ comes. For that to happen there must be a nation present. The church has not replaced it. In Revelation 1:7, it tells us that they that pierced him shall mourn because of Him at his coming. When Christ comes, the nation of Israel will be here waiting for Him. They have not been replaced by the church. If you allegorize this you may as well allegorize the ressurrection just as the J.W.'s do. What is to prevent you from doing so.
The anti-semitism comes in this way. It is inherently anti-semitic for it gives no reason to witness to the Jew for God has done away with them. They are damned. They have been replaced. The Muslims love this doctrine and also believe in it. The believe that as Christians believe the church has "replaced" Judaism, so they (Islam) will replace Christianity. And that is their goal. Not only to kill Judaism, but to replace Christianity, and to become the one world-wide religion in this world. They definitely believe in replacement theology. It is a demonic anti-semitic heresy.
DHK
Thank you, DHK, you understand and articulated what I was trying to say exactly. I must have communication problems because very few on this thread even got a grasp of what I was trying to say & it was hijacked multiple times. Thank you so much, you hit the nail right on the head!
DHK,
First, it appears from your interpretation of Rev.1:7 that you believe modern day Jews are guilty of killing Christ simply because they are Jewish. And you call my beliefs antisemetic?
Second, why quote only part of a phrase from Rom. 11? In context, it is more naturally understood as saying that Jews must also be saved through the Deliverer of Zion, Jesus Christ, as Isaiah prophesied. "So" i.e. "in this manner" all Israel "shall be" i.e. "must be" saved as it is written...
Third, why would someone who believes that Jews can only be saved by believing in Christ be unwilling to tell them of salvation in Christ? It seems more likely that those who believe they'll be saved simply because they are Jewish would think it unecessary to tell them of the Deliverer.
In Christ,
Tim
First, it appears from your interpretation of Rev.1:7 that you believe modern day Jews are guilty of killing Christ simply because they are Jewish. And you call my beliefs antisemetic?
Second, why quote only part of a phrase from Rom. 11? In context, it is more naturally understood as saying that Jews must also be saved through the Deliverer of Zion, Jesus Christ, as Isaiah prophesied. "So" i.e. "in this manner" all Israel "shall be" i.e. "must be" saved as it is written...
Third, why would someone who believes that Jews can only be saved by believing in Christ be unwilling to tell them of salvation in Christ? It seems more likely that those who believe they'll be saved simply because they are Jewish would think it unecessary to tell them of the Deliverer.
In Christ,
Tim
First of all, today is the first time I saw this thread and I read quickly through all six pages not memorizing who said what. I did not accuse anyone's beliefs specifically of being antisemitic. I simply defined what the doctrine is and what it leads to.
Hear is what Revelation 1:7 says:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
This is speaking of the return of Christ. What will be the attituded of the Jews (those that pierced him) when he comes? Also the Jews will be included in the following group called "all kindreds of the earth." I don't know what other spin you want to put on this verse.
Why? Because it was the most relevant to the discussion. All three chapters in Romans 9,10,11 deal with the nation of Israel. I don't believe the moderators would be too happy with me if I spent one post on the expostion of three chapters in the book of Romans. Neither is it needful. The Jews will be saved through the deliverer of Zion, Jesus Christ, but when He comes again in all of His glory with the mighty angels, which He has not done. Have you seen Him come again yet with his mighty angels? I haven't.
Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As you can see these verses are future, still to take place. God will forgive their sins (when Christ comes again). There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer. Paul was writing this long after Christ died, and rose again. It is still a future event.
God's promise from Abraham through the minor prophets was that Israel would ultimately be redeemed. God promised David that a kingdom would be set up where Christ would reign forever. There are many such prophecies in the minor prophecies, especially in Zechariah.
In this dispensation a Jew can be saved just as we: by believing in Jesus Christ as Lord, and trusting Him as Saviour. If they die without Christ, they, like anyone else will go to Hell. The Bible still teaches that it is more difficult for a Jew to believe than for others to believe. It also teaches that in the endtimes right before the coming of Christ, the nation of Israel as a whole will turn to Christ and be saved. I find no contradiction in that. It is a matter of timing in God's redemptive plan.
DHK
John 19:36 For these things came to pass , that the scripture might be fulfilled , A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Looks like 1st century to me.
Carry on Tim. This will be like taking candy from a baby.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Looks like 1st century to me.
Carry on Tim. This will be like taking candy from a baby.
Here is the exact quote:Originally posted by Grasshopper:
John 19:36 For these things came to pass , that the scripture might be fulfilled , A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Looks like 1st century to me.
Carry on Tim. This will be like taking candy from a baby.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
The Spirit of grace and supplications will be poured upon the house of David--meaning the nation of Israel. That has not happened yet. It will happen in the future when Christ comes again. At that time they (the nation of Israel) shall mourn for him, the one that they pierced--fulfilling this prophecy, and Rev.1:7
DHK
Quoting DHK, "Replacement Theology is a dangerous doctrine, anti-semitic in its teaching and totally unbiblical."
DHK,
Apparently you're backing off of your original assertion (above). That's a step in the right direction.
Grasshopper, and I (and Justin Martyr) hold to what you refer to as "replacement theology". As far as I can tell, none of us hate Jews, and speaking for myself at least, we would (and I have) share the gospel with any Jew who will listen.
Though some delight in painting us with a black brush, such comments are unfounded and thus tend to discredit your position.
Regarding Romans 11, my point is that the verse is not making a prediction about the future (as the phrase lifted out of context might imply), but rather that it stresses the obligation of ALL ISRAEL to be saved through Christ--not relying upon their lineage.
The Deliverer DID come out of Zion and establish the New Covenant with the faithful remnant of Jews who believed, taking away their sins, and turning them from ungodliness. Thus God did not forget His promises to Israel.
Paul was grieved that much of Israel was blinded, but rejoiced that God would still have mercy on many (those who believed). The bottom line--Don't give up on the hard-hearted Jews, God will still save some!
In Christ,
Tim
DHK,
Apparently you're backing off of your original assertion (above). That's a step in the right direction.
Grasshopper, and I (and Justin Martyr) hold to what you refer to as "replacement theology". As far as I can tell, none of us hate Jews, and speaking for myself at least, we would (and I have) share the gospel with any Jew who will listen.
Though some delight in painting us with a black brush, such comments are unfounded and thus tend to discredit your position.
Regarding Romans 11, my point is that the verse is not making a prediction about the future (as the phrase lifted out of context might imply), but rather that it stresses the obligation of ALL ISRAEL to be saved through Christ--not relying upon their lineage.
The Deliverer DID come out of Zion and establish the New Covenant with the faithful remnant of Jews who believed, taking away their sins, and turning them from ungodliness. Thus God did not forget His promises to Israel.
Paul was grieved that much of Israel was blinded, but rejoiced that God would still have mercy on many (those who believed). The bottom line--Don't give up on the hard-hearted Jews, God will still save some!
In Christ,
Tim
The Spirit of grace and supplications will be poured upon the house of David--meaning the nation of Israel.
That is your meaning, not the texts.
At that time they (the nation of Israel) shall mourn for him, the one that they pierced--fulfilling this prophecy, and Rev.1:7
Again you assume an interpretation. The "they" are the 1st century Jews to whom the book of John and Revelation was written.
As I showed you it was fulfilled in the death of Christ.
John 19:36 For these things came to pass , that the scripture might be fulfilled , A bone of him shall not be broken.37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Are you saying this was not the fulfillment? Does it not clearly state that these things came to pass (past tense) that scripture might be fulfilled?
That is your meaning, not the texts.
At that time they (the nation of Israel) shall mourn for him, the one that they pierced--fulfilling this prophecy, and Rev.1:7
Again you assume an interpretation. The "they" are the 1st century Jews to whom the book of John and Revelation was written.
As I showed you it was fulfilled in the death of Christ.
John 19:36 For these things came to pass , that the scripture might be fulfilled , A bone of him shall not be broken.37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Are you saying this was not the fulfillment? Does it not clearly state that these things came to pass (past tense) that scripture might be fulfilled?
No, this is the meaning of the text, for the meaning of the text is found in its context. Look at the preceding verse, verse 9:
Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Has Christ come to destroy all the nations that have come against Jerusalem? No. This will only happen when Christ comes again at the end of the Tribulation period. At that time all Israel shall turn to Christ and be saved (Rom.11:26). The rest of the context of Zechariah gives the same context--the millennial reign of Christ, and the preceding Tribulation, both of which have not yet taken place.
At that time they (the nation of Israel) shall mourn for him, the one that they pierced--fulfilling this prophecy, and Rev.1:7
You have not demonstrated that it was fulfilled in the death of Christ, far from it. The text from Zechariah points not to the death of Christ, but to a future event, not yet taken place. Your interpretation is the one that is assumed, with no evidence.
Zechariah 12:11-12 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
--This event has not yet happened in history. Neither has the events described in verse 9, nor in verse 10. All are yet to come; future events.
John 19:36 For these things came to pass , that the scripture might be fulfilled , A bone of him shall not be broken.37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
That may have been a partial fulfillment, but it wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy that Zechariah was speaking of. That fulfillment is still to come. Revelation 1:7 makes that clear. "They also which pierced him" simply describes who they are, the Jews. They will recognize their Messiah, as the Messiah when He comes again with His mighty angels just at the end of the Tribulation.
DHK
You must make a decision regarding your own beliefs. Is Christ coming again or not. There are many references in the Bible to the birth of Christ, and Christ did come. There are over 300 promises that Christ will come a second time. When He comes a second time He will come for the nation of Israel itself. That is not to say that Christians will not share in the blessings of the second coming of Christ. They will. But the Second Coming of Christ is specifically centered around the Jewish nation.
Zechariah 2:10-12 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
The Lord says: I come. I will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. You shall know that the Lord of host has sent me unto you. The Lord shall inherit Judah. He shall choose Jerusalem again.
Christ is coming again. The emphasis is on the nation of Israel.
DHK
I would not call what I espouse Replacement Theology, but rather 'Fulfillment Theology', in that the promises to Israel have - or will have - been fulfilled in the Church. 'Replacement' is inaccurate, since the Church did not replace Israel; rather the Faithful Remnant of Israel became the Church, which then had Gentile branches grafted on (Rom 9-11). Nor does it follow from this that I am anti-Semitic and refuse to preach the Gospel to the unbelieving Jews; on the contrary the same passage speaks of the Jews being saved and the necessity of preaching the Gospel to them to achieve this(this despite the same apostle apparently giving up on them in Acts 28). But it does mean that I believe that unbelieving Jews are as damned as any other form of unbeliever - there is no 'alternative means of salvation' for them, either now or at the parousia .
To return to the OP, the answer is 'no', although I can see how the doctrine can lead to anti-Semitism, esp when certain Johannine and Pauline passages - particularly those already quoted in this thread - are quoted out of context. But one can equally say this abot pre-millenial dispensationalism: I think it was Hal Lindsey in the 1960s who took the doctrine to its logical conclusion, viz the Jews must be gathered into Israel so that we Christians can be raptured and then 2/3 of the nation of Israel can be wiped out in the Battle of Armageddon as a necessary precursor to the parousia . That's nice isn't it - let's get all the Jews to return to Israel so we can get raptured and they can enjoy a second Holocaust. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying for an instant that LadyEagle, Pastor Larry or indeed most PMDers share this notion; I am simply pointing out that, just like Replacement Theology, PMDism, if taken down a certain road, can lead to anti-Semitism as well...
Yours in Christ
Matt
To return to the OP, the answer is 'no', although I can see how the doctrine can lead to anti-Semitism, esp when certain Johannine and Pauline passages - particularly those already quoted in this thread - are quoted out of context. But one can equally say this abot pre-millenial dispensationalism: I think it was Hal Lindsey in the 1960s who took the doctrine to its logical conclusion, viz the Jews must be gathered into Israel so that we Christians can be raptured and then 2/3 of the nation of Israel can be wiped out in the Battle of Armageddon as a necessary precursor to the parousia . That's nice isn't it - let's get all the Jews to return to Israel so we can get raptured and they can enjoy a second Holocaust. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying for an instant that LadyEagle, Pastor Larry or indeed most PMDers share this notion; I am simply pointing out that, just like Replacement Theology, PMDism, if taken down a certain road, can lead to anti-Semitism as well...
Yours in Christ
Matt