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Replacement Theology
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But is that olive tree in Rom 11 national Israel? How are we wild branches grafted in to that? And those natural branches (Jew) that were broken off for unbelief, did they cease to be ethnic/national Jews when they were broken off? And when they turn to Christ and are grafted back in to that olive tree, what are they grafted back into? Israel, or the Church?webdog said:
It has to be the Church.
webdog said:
I agree. And if you take the parts of Revelation that are more naturally interpreted literally, then the 144,000 sealed for protection during the wrath of God are chosen from the real tribes of Israel listed in Revelation. I see no reason to "spiritualize" the list of these people into some mish-mosh of gentiles and Jews.
TCGreek said:
1. But I take the entire treatise of Rom 9-11 as Paul's unveiling of spiritual Israel, "the elect", also "the church" which is the manifestation of the elect in this age. I read somewhere that the passage should be seen as answering the question "if nothing shall separate us from the love of God, then what about Israel?" And then Paul reveals God's love to the elect, both of Israel and the Gentiles, and they form the body called church. This makes sense to me.
2. I don't see how chronology applies here.
npetreley said:
If that 144,000 is literally 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, where are they going to come from? In the 1st century all that was left were some from Levi, Benjamin, and Judah, I believe. All the rest had been carried away by Assyria and assimilated into some other culture hundreds of years earlier.
Do modern day Israelis even keep up with what tribe they are from anymore? Seems like all the genealogical tables were lost in 70 AD so there wouldn't be any records anymore. That would also be a problem for ordaining priests for any new temple. Who could know who was descended from Aaron?
TCGreek said:
If they are to be provoked to emulation, whom shall they emulate? The Gentiles, of course. So how does Israel reach "fullness"? As Gill puts it, "when converts to Christ among them will be as the sand of the sea, a nation of them shall be born again at once, and all Israel be saved. This will be a great accession to the Gentile church, bring much glory to it, contribute greatly to its welfare, and be a means of establishing their faith, and of putting fresh life and vigour into them, and of inspiring them with more zeal for Christ, and for his honour and glory."
I do not deny that this "fullness" is perhaps a prophetic, future event. I just insist that any turning to Christ involving ethnic Israel must be a turning to the Church, the body of Christ. Therefore, I deny that the church will ever be "taken out" of this world to restore national/Mosaic Israel.
I think it is true that when we see "Israel" in the passage, it sometimes refers to national Israel and sometimes to spiritual Israel (the election of grace), and it can be difficult to differentiate between them.
ShotGunWillie
New Member
Yes, they do, they are gathering the preistly line together as we speak, training them in preparation for rebuilding the temple. Just like the priets coming to the US to find the right red heffer. They have the harps, the are putting together the pieces to rebuild.
You can not follow prophesy and not follow Israel, they work hand in hand. The Israelites and the Jews are still important, even separate from the church, they are still God's chosen people and still play a very important role.
All of the prophesies in Daniel have yet to be fullfilled and the 70 weeks is not compelte. The Jew is still very much an important role.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
ShotGunWillie said:
I can't imagine a more blasphmous act than to re-institute OT sacrifices.
lbaker said:
You mean "The Late Great Planet Earth" is not a legitimate source?:laugh:
Old Covenant Israel was a physical type of New Covenant Israel(Church). Very few people I know of beleive the Church "replaced' Israel. What they believe is the Church is the fulfilment of the promises made Old Covenant Israel. Israel became the Church. That is not Replacement theology.
God was through with the types and shadows in AD70.
Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).
Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).
ShotGunWillie
New Member
PHP:
www.jimmydeyoung.gospelcom.netYou can search his website for resource material and so on.
The next temple that will be built, will not be built for God, it will be for the coming Messiah (Anti-Christ). The tenth red heifer is ready, and the pieces are coming together for the anti-christ, who will allow the Jews to rebuild their temple and begin sacrifices. Then the anti-christ does his thing and then the Jews do theirs.
ShotGunWillie said:
I wouldn't consider him a legitimate source of information. I was thinking more like Fox, or CNN, or perhaps a university.
All I've been able to find out about the red heifer is that they don't have one. They thought they did but then it's tail turned white and ruined the deal. These folks trying to build another temple appear to be a fringe group who have nothing to do with the Israeli government and one of them claims to be a descendant of David and the rightful King of Israel. Also, they seem to be associated with Benny Hinn to some extent.
ShotGunWillie
New Member
Do what, are you kidding me?
1. You want your source to be from Fox News or CNN, or perhaps a university. You'll never get the information there.
2. Jimmy DeYoung happens to be an actual journalist in Israel who has documented many things concerning the government as well as the religious leaders. Concerning the rebuilding of the Temple.
3. Who is associated with Benny Hinn?
4. I am not familiar with the group you are referring to, perhaps you would care to share that information.
1. You want your source to be from Fox News or CNN, or perhaps a university. You'll never get the information there.
2. Jimmy DeYoung happens to be an actual journalist in Israel who has documented many things concerning the government as well as the religious leaders. Concerning the rebuilding of the Temple.
3. Who is associated with Benny Hinn?
4. I am not familiar with the group you are referring to, perhaps you would care to share that information.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
ShotGunWillie said:
Eschatology is always an interesting topic. I am more persudaed that the Man of Sin has already been revealed, so obviously I am of the pretrib-premill-dispy view.