2 Timothy2:1-4
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I'm do not support Replacement Theology but this has been one of the better discussiopns have seen in my short tme on the board.:thumbs: :1_grouphug:
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Replacement Theology
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This is getting away from the OP but it brings up some important issues. I used to call myself a "Christian Zionist" because of my dispensational views. I once even declared that if the U.S. ever went to war against Israel I would defect and join the Israeli army. I thought that they were God's nation. To many dispy's, this issue is not political - it is spiritual. You ain't right with God if you ain't for Israel.
But Israel was destroyed. Who destroyed it? God did, that's who. There's nothing anti-semitic about the truth. Modern Israel may be comprised of ethnic Jews, but the nation of Israel that was destroyed in 70 a.d. will never exist again.
Having said that, I actually still support the modern nation of Israel and I would like to see the jews regain all of Palistine. But that's my political position, not my religion.
DHK said:
I'll look at your link more thoroughly later. For now, before I log off, I will say that I agree with numbers 1 thru 3 of your list, but not 4 and 5. The promises to Israel were fulfilled, NOT "taken away". On number 4, "Israel" sometimes means "the elect" or "church" depending on context.
Gotta go. Good discussion.
Absolutely. Go back into history to understand it:lbaker said:
722 B.C. The ten northern tribes went into captivity and were "dispersed" throughout Assyria.
586 B.C. Through three separate deportations Judah was conquered by Nebuchadnezzar and taken off into Babylon. There she was scattered among the Babylonian empire. The Temple was destroyed along with the city of Jerusalem.
During the time of Cyrus, Nehemiah, Zerubbabel, and Ezra were permitted to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild the walls of the city and the Temple.
But it was destroyed again.
The Jews remained dispersed, scattered.
At the time of Christ, it was a heathen emperor, Herod the Great that built the Temple where the Jews worshiped at that time. The Jews rejected the Messiah.
In 70 A.D. the Roman general Titus came and razed the city of Jerusalem, destroying the Temple, and the nation of Israel was dispersed once again. This wasn't the first time.
They were established as a nation in 1948, and have been returning to their land in greater numbers in more recent years. We do look at political events only as indicators of spiritual events that may take place soon. But we dare not make any firm predictions, as the Bible advises us not to. However Israel still exists. Someday Christ will come. Christ will come and defeat the enemies of Israel at the battle of Armeggedon, and so all Israel shall be saved.
lbaker said:
The Tribulation Temple
During the Tribulation the Temple will be rebuilt by unbelieving Jews (Is. 66:1-6), apparently as the result of a covenant made between the Jewish leadership and the Antichrist (Dan. 9:27a), and desecrated by the Antichrist with the "Abomination of Desolation" (Dan. 9:27b) when he invades Jerusalem (Dan. 11:45; Rev. 11:2). Jesus enlarged upon Daniel's prophecy by setting the Temple's desecration as the signal event dividing the birth pangs of the first half of the Tribulation from the remaining 1,260 days of "Great Tribulation" (Matt. 24:15; Mk. 13:14; cf. Rev. 11:1-2) which begins an unparalleled period of Jewish persecution (Matt. 24:16-22; Mk. 13:15-20) leading up to the rescue of the redeemed Remnant at the second advent of Messiah (Zech. 12:8-14; 14:3-5; Lk. 21:27-28; Rev. 19:11-16). Paul further developed the prophecy of the Temple's desecration in his description of the end-time "deception" that will accompany the revelation of the "man of lawlessness" (2 Thess. 2:4, 10). He explained this as the Antichrist's blasphemous act to usurp God's place in the Holy of Holies (2 Thess. 2:4; cf. Rev. 13:6, 14-15). The Tribulation Temple may be destroyed at the return of Christ when the Mount of Olives splits (Zech. 14:4), but it will certainly be removed as part of the extensive topographical changes that will prepare for the Millennial Jerusalem and its Temple (Zech. 14:10; cf. Is. 2:2).
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/price/7rp.html
According to this article, there will be three temples...
The Tribulation Temple - (article above)--built by unbelieving Jews
The Millennial Temple - will be built by Christ (Zech. 6:12-13), redeemed Jews (Ezek. 43:10-11), and representatives from the Gentile nations (Zech. 6:15; Hag. 2:7; cf. Is. 60:10) at the beginning of the Messianic kingdom (Ezek. 37:26-28).
The Eternal Temple - The final Temple revealed in prophecy is that which will occupy the New Jerusalem throughout the eternal state (Rev. 21:2, 10).
Replacement Theology was introduced to the Church shortly after Gentile leadership took over from Jewish leadership. What are its premises?
Mat 23:32 and you fill up the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city;
Mat 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Truly I say to you, All these things shall come on this generation.
- Israel (the Jewish people and the land) has been replaced by the Christian Church in the purposes of God, No, they were not replaced.or, more precisely, the Church is the historic continuation of Israel to the exclusion of the former. This is the better definition. The Church is the New Covenant Israel. Physical OT Israel was a type and shadow of the Church.
- The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans. Bingo!!! If you deny this then you either believe Jews are saved outside the work of Christ or God's "chosen people" go to hell. Do you believe God's chosen go to hell?
- Apart from repentance, the new birth, and incorporation into the Church, the Jewish people have no future, no hope, and no calling in the plan of God. The same is true for every other nation and group. Who is a Jew? The whites who migrated from Europe, the blacks who migrated from Africa or the olive-skinned who are native to Palestine? Or are the "Jews" those who practice some sort of warped form of Judaism? It was only the 2 southern tribes who were called "Jews", what about the 10 northern tribes? What about converts to Judaism, are they entitled to the promises made? Sammy Davis jr. converted to Judaism, did that make him "chosen of God"?
- Since Pentecost of Acts 2, the term "Israel," as found in the Bible, now refers to the Church. Can't say I agree with that.
- The promises, covenants and blessings ascribed to Israel in the Bible have been taken away from the Jews and given to the Church, No, they were fulfilled in the Church.which has superseded them. However, the Jews are subject to the curses found in the Bible, as a result of their rejection of Christ.If they were not subject to the curses then God was a liar. Read Josephus' "War of the Jews" to see how the curses of God came upon those Jews.
Mat 23:32 and you fill up the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city;
Mat 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Truly I say to you, All these things shall come on this generation.
Briefly--the statements made in this post are extremely anti-semetic. Grasshopper, I think you need to study the Scriptures without the "help" of Replacement theology. How do you witness to unsaved Jews --or isn't that part of your agenda? In Matthew 23, Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders--not the nation of Israel. God has not forsaken Israel--the church is NOT fulfilled in Israel--the Gentiles didn't inherit the covenants and promises God made with ISRAEL. Your statements are calling God a liar. I learned that a true born again Christian Gentile loves the Jews and Israel. I am thankful to my Lord Jesus Christ that there are born again Gentiles who love the Jewish people and pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6). This was the heart of the lady who led this lost Jewish soul to the Lord 33 years ago.Grasshopper said:
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (Jeremiah 31:35-36)
Have the moon and stars gone out? Obviously this isn't true, so therefore God has not forsaken Israel, no matter what a group of "theologians" say. My God is a covenant keeping God. Replacement theology IS anti-semetic and heretical.
Briefly--the statements made in this post are extremely anti-semetic. Grasshopper, Typical reaction of Zionist Christians.
I think you need to study the Scriptures without the "help" of Replacement theology. As I've stated many times I don't hold to "Replacement Theology", but if it makes you feel better continue the lie.
How do you witness to unsaved Jews --or isn't that part of your agenda? In the same manner you would anyone else. Though you can use much more OT scripture in doing so.
In Matthew 23, Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders--not the nation of Israel.Were the curses of Dueteronomy only for the Jewish leaders?
God has not forsaken Israel--the church is NOT fulfilled in Israel--Prove it from scripture.the Gentiles didn't inherit the covenants and promises God made with ISRAEL.So you would agree with Dispies like Charles Ryrie who say the New Covenant has not been made yet. Correct? Your statements are calling God a liar.Were did I do such a thing? Accusations are easy proving it is a little harder. I learned that a true born again Christian Gentile loves the Jews and Israel. But we don't love the Arabs? Is love of secular Israel a matter of salvation?I am thankful to my Lord Jesus Christ that there are born again Gentiles who love the Jewish people and pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6). Are you equally thankful for those who love and witness to the Palestinians? Or are they the "enemy"?This was the heart of the lady who led this lost Jewish soul to the Lord 33 years ago.Did she love you only because you were a Jew? How sad if so.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (Jeremiah 31:35-36)
Does Paul speak of who the "seed" is?
Have the moon and stars gone out? Obviously this isn't true, so therefore God has not forsaken Israel, no matter what a group of "theologians" say. My God is a covenant keeping God. Replacement theology IS anti-semetic and heretical. Sorry, but we you don't hold up a certain group of people and worship them don't consider ourselves anti-semetic. Care to address scripturally my statements in the previous post? No paste and cut from raprture-ready.
I think you need to study the Scriptures without the "help" of Replacement theology. As I've stated many times I don't hold to "Replacement Theology", but if it makes you feel better continue the lie.
How do you witness to unsaved Jews --or isn't that part of your agenda? In the same manner you would anyone else. Though you can use much more OT scripture in doing so.
In Matthew 23, Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders--not the nation of Israel.Were the curses of Dueteronomy only for the Jewish leaders?
God has not forsaken Israel--the church is NOT fulfilled in Israel--Prove it from scripture.the Gentiles didn't inherit the covenants and promises God made with ISRAEL.So you would agree with Dispies like Charles Ryrie who say the New Covenant has not been made yet. Correct? Your statements are calling God a liar.Were did I do such a thing? Accusations are easy proving it is a little harder. I learned that a true born again Christian Gentile loves the Jews and Israel. But we don't love the Arabs? Is love of secular Israel a matter of salvation?I am thankful to my Lord Jesus Christ that there are born again Gentiles who love the Jewish people and pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6). Are you equally thankful for those who love and witness to the Palestinians? Or are they the "enemy"?This was the heart of the lady who led this lost Jewish soul to the Lord 33 years ago.Did she love you only because you were a Jew? How sad if so.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (Jeremiah 31:35-36)
Does Paul speak of who the "seed" is?
Have the moon and stars gone out? Obviously this isn't true, so therefore God has not forsaken Israel, no matter what a group of "theologians" say. My God is a covenant keeping God. Replacement theology IS anti-semetic and heretical. Sorry, but we you don't hold up a certain group of people and worship them don't consider ourselves anti-semetic. Care to address scripturally my statements in the previous post? No paste and cut from raprture-ready.
Can someone tell me why the ME'ers were banned due heretical teaching...but RT'ers are allowed to post freely?
The BaptistBoard.com's Administrative Council has determined that the doctrine referred to as "Millennial Exclusion" falls outside the bounds of traditional orthodox Christain teaching. Therefore, the Administrative Council has deemed this false teaching to be "damnable heresies" (II Peter 2:1), and has reached the decision to revoke the membership of those who continue to spread this heresy here on the Baptist Board.
The BaptistBoard.com's Administrative Council has determined that the doctrine referred to as "Millennial Exclusion" falls outside the bounds of traditional orthodox Christain teaching. Therefore, the Administrative Council has deemed this false teaching to be "damnable heresies" (II Peter 2:1), and has reached the decision to revoke the membership of those who continue to spread this heresy here on the Baptist Board.
You do not have a Scriptural answer in any of your points but rather a philosophy; a vain imagination of an attempt to discredit a nation and a religion which some day will accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah.Grasshopper said:
1. The church is not a continuation of Israel, and never has been. Learn Scripture; not vain philosophy.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--The Jews rejected the Messiah. However they were not replaced by the church. BTW, church (ekklesia) means assembly. Which assembly replaced Israel. Which Baptist church? Or was it Presbyterian? Charismatic? Brethren? Anglican? Catholic? Congregational? Which one? Which one of the many "assemblies" replaced an entire nation?
2. Paul maintained well past Pentecost that there was always three groups of people to be ministered to:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--But Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, is not good enough for you. You would rather believe a vain man's imagination and not Scripture.
3. Paul always differentiated between the Jews and the Gentiles (sometimes referred to as the Greeks)
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
--The Bible makes a difference. Both exist. But in your vain philosophy they don't. One is a continuation of the other. If it were why does the Scripture differentiate between them both?
Physical OT Israel was not a type of the church. Physical Israel still exists. What has been done away with is the OT ceremonnial law which was fulfilled at the cross. If the Jews, who rejected Christ as their Messiah, hold to this day to their old religion that makes them unsaved. It doesn't make them "not a Jew." Many of the Jews of the OT were not "saved" either.
When Christ comes "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom.11:26). It is in the Bible. I believe it. They will look upon him whom they have pierced. They will believe as a nation. They will believe the same way we have believed.
I feel sorry for you if you do not know who a Jew is.
There was a warped form of Judaism practised during the time of the Judges. Do you deny that they were Jews? Is this your reasoning? They have to live a perfect life according to the law of Moses before they can be called a Jew? It really is a vain imagination, a ridiculous philosophy that is totally unsciptural that you believe in. I note that you don't provide any Scripture for this philosophy.
"So then all Israel shall be saved." You don't believe the Scriptures concerning Israel do you?
No I don't either. I already posted many verses that differentiate between Israel and the church. But Replacement Theology wipes Israel out completely replacing Israel with the church. I thought that is what you believe. Now you are being inconsistent.
Who says? Where does it say that they were fulfilled in the church. Again, this is your vain imagination. It is not in Scripture. I note you do not give any Scripture for the philosophy that you have presented. Israel as a nation rejected Christ. The church started at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came and began to indwell believers. It was a completely different entity and had nothing to do with OT Israel, who was always differentiated as a different nation from the Christians.
What a hypocritical postion you have. It shows your anti-semitism. The church inherits all the blessings of Israel, but Israel still inherits all the curses. Give me a break! How anti-semitic can one get. What if Jews read this garbage? I am sure that you will win many of them to the Lord. :tonofbricks: