Replacement Theology

[Brother Bob]

I like Slick Willie, I think he outsmarted all those bums in Washington.........:laugh: :tonofbricks:

 

[EdSutton]

I know there is nothing stopping Israel from believing now, except their own unbelief.

Not exactly. There is an additional "layer of blindness", so to speak, on Israel, or at least a part of Israel, in the short term. But this is temporary. And God says He and Israel would both have a part in making it so.

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:9-10 - NKJV)

24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our[a] fathers, 26 saying,

‘ Go to this people and say:

“ Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’[b]

28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” (Ac. 28:24-28 - NKJV)

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[a] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[b] as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[c]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom. 11:22-29 - NKJV)

Note that Rom. 11:28 gives two different "concernings" - one of "the gospel'" and one of "the election".

And if there is any real validity to any sort of "replacement theology", IMO, it is that of the Gentiles being on an even footing, so to speak, at the cross, with the Jews, for salvation by grace through faith, and salvation has come to the Gentiles, as well. (Gen. 15:6; Hab. 2:4; Isa. 49:6; Acts 13:47; 14:27)

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, I can't disagree with scripture Ed, but believe it is taking place now. We know the Deliverer has already come. We know that they were blinded for the Gentiles sake but the middle wall has been broken down already and we are not longer twain, but one in Christ Jesus. It was us, he told not to boast, lest we be cutoff, that is now. It is much easier to graft them back in than it was to bring the gentiles in, now if they will believe. IMO

I guess we believe in the same happenings, it is just the when that I can't say exactly when it is, but believe we are living in that time now. IMO

 

[EdSutton]

I like Slick Willie, I think he outsmarted all those bums in Washington.........:laugh: :tonofbricks:

I'd say enough bums to go around on all sides, personally. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, they try to see who can get to the toilet stall first........... Man, I don't know if I will ever use another public toilet stall or not. I know I will be looking both ways and all around. Probably go all around the outside too, before going in the stall......also, I sure hope they are not playing any footstomping music over the loud speakers. A man don't want to do any foot tapping...... :laugh: :laugh: :applause: especially, if you have a wide stance.... Can you believe what these jokers come up with???

 

[npetreley]

I'd say enough bums to go around on all sides, personally. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

Is there anyone in Washington who is NOT a bum? I thought Slick Willie should have gone to jail, but I'm no fan of Bush, either. I don't know if Alan Keyes is for real, but he's the only one who has ever made a positive impression on me.

 

[Brother Bob]

And if there is any real validity to any sort of "replacement theology", IMO, it is that of the Gentiles being on an even footing, so to speak, at the cross, with the Jews, for salvation by grace through faith, and salvation has come to the Gentiles, as well. (Gen. 15:6; Hab. 2:4; Isa. 49:6; Acts 13:47; 14:27)

Ed

This my friend is exactly what I been trying to say. Not too clear, it seems.

 

[Linda64]

Can any Dispie answer this question:

Has the New Covenant been made?

Way of Life Encyclopedia

New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:1-33; Hebrews 8:7-13; Hebrews 10:9-22). This is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ. It was given to the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ (Hebrews 8:7-13). The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Zechariah 13:1-9).

The promise of the New Covenant:

(1) It was made with the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).

(2) It will replace the Mosaic covenant (Jeremiah 31:32; Hebrews 10:8-9).

(3) It promises regeneration and cleansing from sin (Jeremiah 31:33-34).

(4) It reaffirms Israel's national security and future kingdom (Jeremiah 31:35-37).

(5) It promises Israel's possession of the land (Jer 32:37,41-44).

(6) It is eternal (Jeremiah 32:40).

(7) It promises God's blessing upon the land (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

Other O.T. mentions of the New Covenant:

(1) It will be established when Israel is restored and blessed before the eyes of all nations (Isaiah 61:8-11; Ezekiel 37:21-28).

(2) It will involve the placing of God's sanctuary in the midst of Israel forever (Ezekiel 37:26-27).

(3) Some Psalms record prayers of this future spiritual regeneration (Psalm 80:18-19; Psalm 79:8-9).

(4) Some Psalms picture the fulfillment of this covenant (Psalm 85:1-13; Psalm 130:1-8; Psalm 72:1-20).

(5) Mentions of Israel seeking God in the future are references to the New Covenant (Joshua 3:5; 5:15-6:1).

(6) Jesus referred to the New Covenant in His teaching of the new birth (compare John 3:1-15 and Ezekiel 36:24-29).

The New Covenant and the Church: If the New Covenant is not fulfilled in the church (referring to the church in a general, institutional sense), why does the writer of Hebrews apply it to Christians (Hebrews 8:6-13; Hebrews 10:15-19)? Hebrews does not say the New Covenant is fulfilled in the church; it plainly says the New Covenant belongs to "the house of Israel" (Hebrews 8:10). Hebrews refers to the New Covenant to show that the Mosaic system was only temporary and that even the O.T. promised that one day it would be abolished and replaced by another covenant. The writer of Hebrews indicates that every N.T. believer partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ, but nowhere does he say that this covenant has been transferred from national Israel to the church. The Apostle Paul taught that the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age (Romans 11:25-27).

Since you believe in Covenant Theology and mock Dispensationalists (calling them dispies), you will probably have a different interpretation of the New Covenant.

Those who hold to Covenant Theology believe that there is and has always been only one people of God. They believe that Israel was the Church in the Old Testament, and the Church is Israel in the New Testament. What were promises of land, many descendants, and blessing in the Old Testament to Israel has been converted to spiritual blessings for the Church in the New Testament. Those who hold to Covenant Theology also do not interpret prophecy in a normal sense.

Unless the text indicates that it is using some kind of figurative language, it should be taken literally. When Scripture speaks of Israel, it is not referring to the Church, and when the Church is spoken of, it is not referring to Israel. God has a plan for Israel and another for the Church. Also, with reference to prophecy, all prophecies that have been fulfilled were fulfilled literally, not in a figurative sense. When in the Old Testament it speaks of the coming of the Messiah, Christ literally fulfilled those prophecies when He came 2,000 years ago. There is no reason to think that unfulfilled prophecies are to be understood in a figurative sense. They will be fulfilled literally in the future.

http://www.gotquestions.org/covenant-theology.html

 

[Benjamin]

If one (CT) does NOT see a distinction between the Church and Israel then to use the phrase “replacement theology” to describe their theology is illogical at best and vindictive at worst!

Replacement theology certainly does exist as in the RCC teaching that Israel has been replaced or transferred to the NT while insisting only those in the Catholic church will be saved.

What I suspect is going on against Rick Warren and claiming him to be preaching “replacement theology” while burning his books and all is of the rationale from those holding to a distinction between the church and Israel thinking it a logical conclusion by their lines of belief to call it replacement. Although I do not know for sure where he rest his theology.

The sad part is those who hold to Expansion of Israel are being lumped into this theology (Replacement) as sometimes a ploy by the comparisons and the accusations of being anti-Semitic begin to fly. Why it is sad is because those who hold to Expansion think of the saved Jews as spiritual family in the Body of Christ and these accusations are very insulting and unwarranted.

Ben

 

[Grasshopper]

Since you believe in Covenant Theology and mock Dispensationalists (calling them dispies), you will probably have a different interpretation of the New Covenant.

I call them dispies because I get tired of writing out Dispensationalism.

Is the answer to my question: NO, the New Covenant has not been made?

 

[DHK]

I call them dispies because I get tired of writing out Dispensationalism.

Is the answer to my question: NO, the New Covenant has not been made?

As long as you define the "new covenant" as the new convenant spoken of by the prophets, yes it was made (Jer.31), but no it has not been fulfilled, and will not be fulfilled until the Milennial Kingdom.

 

[Grasshopper]

As long as you define the "new covenant" as the new convenant spoken of by the prophets, yes it was made (Jer.31), but no it has not been fulfilled, and will not be fulfilled until the Milennial Kingdom.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So now you say it has been made. It was a Covenant made with the House of Judea and the House of Israel.

So when was it made?

As far as being made but not fulfilled is just rediculous.

 

[DHK]

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So now you say it has been made. It was a Covenant made with the House of Judea and the House of Israel.

So when was it made?

Are you straining at gnats or swallowing a camel? Which one?
The language (verb) is a technicality isn't it? God (through Jeremiah) was making that covenant right there and then. You just read it in your Bible, and then posted it, for us all to read. It was made then. But it was not fulfilled then was it?

As far as being made but not fulfilled is just rediculous.

Is it? Did you read on to the next verse--verse 34?

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Where in history has ALL mankind, or even all the Jewish race, known the Lord--that is trusted him as their personal Messiah, from the least to the greatest? Is that what happened at Pentecost. Was their a one hundred percent turning to the Lord at that time?
I think you have a problem.
That will never happen until Christ comes again and sets up his Kingdom. Then will all the world know him, as he sits on his throne and rules the entire world.

 

[Grasshopper]

Are you straining at gnats or swallowing a camel? Which one?
The language (verb) is a technicality isn't it? God (through Jeremiah) was making that covenant right there and then. You just read it in your Bible, and then posted it, for us all to read. It was made then. But it was not fulfilled then was it?
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Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


What does "the days come" mean? Why doesn't it say I "have made" or "did make"? "will make" indicated future event.

You also seem to think the New Covenant was made while the Old Covenant was still in effect. Strange indeed.

Is it? Did you read on to the next verse--verse 34?

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Where in history has ALL mankind, or even all the Jewish race, known the Lord--that is trusted him as their personal Messiah, from the least to the greatest? Is that what happened at Pentecost. Was their a one hundred percent turning to the Lord at that time?
I think you have a problem.
That will never happen until Christ comes again and sets up his Kingdom. Then will all the world know him, as he sits on his throne and rules the entire world.

John Gill:

for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: not all mankind; but all the house of Israel, all the family of God, all the children of God being taught by him; not all alike, but all with the same kind of knowledge. This is frequently applied to the times of the Messiah by the Jews

 

[JustChristian]

Are you confused Aaron. Not once did I ever call myself a "new covenant Christian" as was inferred. Why was that ever inferred? Shall I call it a false accusation. I won't, but that is the way that you are taking it. I am a dispensationalist. I was the one that quoted the Jeremiah 31 passage. I was the one that said it was a covenant made to Israel that would yet be fulfilled in the future, during the Millennial Kingdom. It doesn't apply to the Gentile Christians of today. Do you have a problem with that?

I have a problem with that. I believe that Christ's establishing the New Covenant through His death and resurrection is absolutely a cornerstone of the faith.

 

[Linda64]

I have a problem with that. I believe that Christ's establishing the New Covenant through His death and resurrection is absolutely a cornerstone of the faith. As a Dispensationalist, do you believe that the four gospels apply to Christians today or only the rest of the New Testament?

I am also a Dispensationalist, and I believe that the entire Bible applies to all Christians today--and it is to be interpreted literally. Where the Bible says Israel, it means Israel--and where the Bible says the Church, it means the Church. The Church does not replace Israel--this is Replacement Theology. I posted this earlier in this thread, but here it is again:

New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:1-33; Hebrews 8:7-13; Hebrews 10:9-22). This is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ. It was given to the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ (Hebrews 8:7-13). The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Zechariah 13:1-9).

The New Covenant and the Church: If the New Covenant is not fulfilled in the church (referring to the church in a general, institutional sense), why does the writer of Hebrews apply it to Christians (Hebrews 8:6-13; Hebrews 10:15-19)? Hebrews does not say the New Covenant is fulfilled in the church; it plainly says the New Covenant belongs to "the house of Israel" (Heb 8:10). Hebrews refers to the New Covenant to show that the Mosaic system was only temporary and that even the O.T. promised that one day it would be abolished and replaced by another covenant. The writer of Hebrews indicates that every N.T. believer partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ, but nowhere does he say that this covenant has been transferred from national Israel to the church. The Apostle Paul taught that the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age (Romans 11:25-27).

Way of Life Encyclopedia

In no way am I a hyper-dispensationalist (A mid-Acts Dispensationalist)--that's a whole new ball of wax! For more information on Replacement Theology, Covenant Theology, Reformed Theology and Dispensationalism, check out these links:

http://www.gotquestions.org/reformed-theology.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/dispensationalism.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/covenant-theology.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15)

Testament means covenant or agreement. The N.T. tells of God's covenant of eternal salvation through Jesus Christ with those who believe. (the Church) The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:1-34) will be fulfilled for the nation of Israel at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Benjamin]

I am also a Dispensationalist, and I believe that the entire Bible applies to all Christians today--and it is to be interpreted literally. Where the Bible says Israel, it means Israel--and where the Bible says the Church, it means the Church. The Church does not replace Israel--this is Replacement Theology. I posted this earlier in this thread, but here it is again:

OK…FINE… Here you go again…You will continue to use the phrase “replacement theology” within HYPER-Dispy dogmatic slurs against Covenant Theology! Never mind that replacement theology is being used by Dispensationalists here as a derogatory term in the manner it is presented and that no New Covenant Christian would use it to describe themselves.

BECAUSE it’s just odd anyway, since it is actually the Dispy that replaces the Church. Yep, that want I said! In fact it is the idiotic theology of Dispensationalist that teaches the Church will rapture away and will be REPLACED by Israel. It is the Dispy camp that holds to “replacement theology”!

The early Church was originally Israel and will always be Israel, the gentiles were grafted in. I doubt many of the dispensationalist understand that their “replacement theology” teaches the New Covenant (made with Israel) will be abolished and that all mankind will be under the law if sin and death once more. How cleaver of them to use a system to undo the work of Christ and abolish the New Covenant!

It is the Dispies that claim to “rightly divide” the Word right into apparently interpreting scripture to be literally a futurist context with the NC splitting between those in the Body of Christ with there “replacement theology” to make a separation of the Church and thereby replacing the Jews.

Sorry, but you guys (Dispies) should know this of what you preach… “replacement theology” as the Bible makes it clear that the New Covenant was made with Israel and the Gentiles were grafted in. But seems the Dispensationalist replace it with some wacky new theological system giving the kingdom of heaven to the Christians, and the kingdom of God for the Jews (seems they also get a second chance being as apparently this relates to a belief that God is a respecter of persons) and thus, the Jews and Gentiles are separated forever.

Yep, if you can go on ahead and have your definition of replacement theology, and I can have mine.

 

[JustChristian]

I am also a Dispensationalist, and I believe that the entire Bible applies to all Christians today--and it is to be interpreted literally. Where the Bible says Israel, it means Israel--and where the Bible says the Church, it means the Church. The Church does not replace Israel--this is Replacement Theology. I posted this earlier in this thread, but here it is again:

In no way am I a hyper-dispensationalist (A mid-Acts Dispensationalist)--that's a whole new ball of wax! For more information on Replacement Theology, Covenant Theology, Reformed Theology and Dispensationalism, check out these links:

http://www.gotquestions.org/reformed-theology.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/dispensationalism.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/covenant-theology.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15)

Testament means covenant or agreement. The N.T. tells of God's covenant of eternal salvation through Jesus Christ with those who believe. (the Church) The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:1-34) will be fulfilled for the nation of Israel at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.

So do you agree with what I said or disagree with it?

 

[DHK]

OK…FINE… Here you go again…You will continue to use the phrase “replacement theology” within HYPER-Dispy dogmatic slurs against Covenant Theology! Never mind that replacement theology is being used by Dispensationalists here as a derogatory term in the manner it is presented and that no New Covenant Christian would use it to describe themselves.

Replacement Theology is an anti-semitic heretical theology whether you care to close your eyes to it and ignore the heretical teachings or not. There is no need to cast aspersions on those who hold to dispensational theology because they expose the error of Replacement Theology. Because they do so, does not mean they are against all covenant theology. The two are not the same.

If you want to cast aspersions and lump every one in the same boat I will just assume that you are a Roman Catholic because they are the ones that believe in Covenant Theology. So are you in cahoots with the Catholics. You must believe their heresy because you do believe in Covenant Theology. That is the case now isn't it?
This is your logic, not mine.

 

[Benjamin]

Replacement Theology is an anti-semitic heretical theology whether you care to close your eyes to it and ignore the heretical teachings or not. There is no need to cast aspersions on those who hold to dispensational theology because they expose the error of Replacement Theology.

You might want to read these two sentences AGAIN and let me know just what part you disagree with and explain what justifies you to keep using the Dispensationalist favorite derogatory slur term of “replacement theology” toward members on this board and just WHO are you exposing error to?

If one (CT) does NOT see a distinction between the Church and Israel then to use the phrase “replacement theology” to describe their theology is illogical at best and vindictive at worst!

Sarcasm: Never mind that replacement theology is being used by Dispensationalists here as a derogatory term in the manner it is presented and that no New Covenant Christian would use it to describe themselves.

YOU are not exposing any ERROR of replacement theology as it DOES NOT APPLY!!! Get it?