Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

[BobRyan]

TS said
Yes, again, what exactly is it that does the saving? A belief that I take on? A Deed I commit? A combination of both? What is the thing I must do or else face my demise?

What is the universal expression of what saves all humanity?

God said "He convicts the World of Sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8-12 so what do you have to "do" - you have to respond to that conviction - confess and submit.

God said "HE draws all mankind to Himself" John 12:32. So what do you have to do - submit to that drawing power of God. Yield - respond - accept.

God said that "He stands at the door and knocks so that if ANYONE opens the door HE WILL come in" - so you need to respond to that knocking at the door.

You can call it "feeling" or "conscience" or "providence" or anything you like. But God says He is there for everyone - drawing them to Himself and convicting them of their need, their sin, their condition.

And Romans 2 provides the perfect example of a case where people ARE RESPONDING from instinct ALONE - for they have no access at all to the Word. "Who do INSTINCTIVELY those things of the Law" they SHOW the Law written in their heart - they SHOW what Romans 2 calls the circumcision of the heart done by the Spirit of God. They show what Heb 8 and 10 calls the New Covenant work of God in the heart.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But if you actually DO have a Bible - then that SAME love of the truth - that the uninformed have -- if it exists in you would drive you to even more time in the Word. For having found Christ -- we find Him to be "the way the TRUTH and the life".

He is (as John said in John 1) that "light that coming into the world enlightens every person".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Hmmm, shades of "The Matrix?" Since you can conceive of all these possibilities, don't you think you are more than these things? How could you conceive of them without a self-consciousness and without being able to mentally go beyond them, if you kknow what I mean?

Ontology rocks eh?

What does it mean to go 'mentally beyond' something?

Originally posted by Marcia:
Being a breeze or ripple is a lot like Zen Buddhist thinking.

Sure it's in the Veda's too. It's a sentiment expressed in The Republic.

The Bible recognizes it and provides immediate answer:

The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stand forever.

Those words still hang on my wall.

Originally posted by Marcia:
But what would be the point of existence and feeling a sense of purpose (as you admit you have), feeling love, feeling desire, having abstract thought, etc. if we are just a breeze or ripple? We must be more or we would not know we were just a breeze or ripple.

Purpose is simply defined as what I do. It makes sense to ask why I am driven to be the person I am, but you can't justify metaphysical claims based on human nature. It's an impossibility.

Who says we have to be more than what we are? What does that even mean?

Originally posted by Marcia:
But where does your purpose or sense of purpose come from if any of the above is true about existence?

How could I answer such a question? I'm not the one claiming knowledge of such possibilities. I just suggested them. The point is to illustrate that we can come up with all sorts of fantastic imaginings, some of them quite reasonable, but all of them have a couple major things in common: They aren't logically consistent, and certainly none of them is perfect.

Originally posted by Marcia:
Okay, if there is absolute right and wrong, what is the standard for that? There has to be an absolute for there to be absolute right and wrong. And if there is no absolute, then there is no right or wrong. But you did seem to think the biblical god is unjust or unfair. That means you think there is a standard for justice and fairness, but where is it and who determines it?

I'm not claiming to be a prophet here. I haven't "found the light".

If there is absolute right and wrong, I hope it entails the notion of a god who repairs everyone.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
And Romans 2 provides the perfect example of a case where people ARE RESPONDING from instinct ALONE - for they have no access at all to the Word. "Who do INSTINCTIVELY those things of the Law" they SHOW the Law written in their heart - they SHOW what Romans 2 calls the circumcision of the heart done by the Spirit of God. They show what Heb 8 and 10 calls the New Covenant work of God in the heart.

In Christ,

Bob

I understand your argument. It's not as though it will appear fresh to me if you dress it differently.

What is the belief or deed which does the work? How does the man act? What does he do? What exactly is the decision he is faced with?

See, I can ask you to explian salvation lot's of different ways too.

 

[tamborine lady]

Travelsong said: You must at the very least admit that much evil has been done in the name of Jesus as well as god(s) throughout all religions. How about the violence and bloodshed of Christian Rome? Medieval Europe? Spain? Do you not believe this trend has carried straight through to this day? Ireland? Iraq?

Tam says: In Ireland (as I understand it ) one side is Catholic, and the other side, even though they are called Christians, are not christian in the way that we think, They are simply NOT Catholic.

And Iraq is a no brainer. I know there are Christians there but they are not the ones causing the meyhem. The suicide bombers are the ones blowing everybody up, and they are not Christians.

But we can't dwell on what SOME Christians did in the past. We must not hold Christ accountable for mans mistakes. For even Paul (when he was Saul) killed Christians in the name of God.

The reason I asked what your profession was is because you are a very intelligent person. Being a dock worker does not make you any less smart!!!

My thought on that is that you are way overthinking the matter.

Let me propose a solution for you. It has been done and it gets results where sometimes nothing else will.

Try Jesus for 30 days. By that, I mean, say the sinners prayer and ask Him to come into your life. Accept Him as your Savior. And tell Him right from the start;IF YOU ARE REAL, AND IF YOU DO WHAT PEOPLE SAY YOU DO, AND IF YOU ARE WHO THEY SAY YOU ARE, THEN SHOW ME!!(the bold capital letters are not meant as shouting, just to show the important part)

Now of course we are on the honor system here, and those of us here will not know for sure whether you do the next part or not, but it is a crucial part of the deal!

Read your bible everyday. Do a bible study, with the scriptures, look up words, passages, references. Etc. Ask God to show you that He is real. Get into it and ask God to help you live the Christian life for 30 days. Ask Him to prove to you that there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. This incudes going to church, listening to Christian music,listening to the Bible on tape, or reading the scripture out loud to yourself. I prefer the KJV of the Bible, but use whichever one you can understand.

Just live as a born again Christian would. No cursing, no secular movies, try to fill all your day with Jesus. (I know that last part might be hard, given where you work)Just do the best you can. If you mess up, just tell God you are sorry and try not to do that again. (Remember, it's ony for 30 days).

At the end of the 30 days, if you are not convinced that Jesus is who the bible says He is, then you can go on your way, and dump it all.

Are you game? Can you do this and give Jesus a chance?

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
And Romans 2 provides the perfect example of a case where people ARE RESPONDING from instinct ALONE - for they have no access at all to the Word. "Who do INSTINCTIVELY those things of the Law" they SHOW the Law written in their heart - they SHOW what Romans 2 calls the circumcision of the heart done by the Spirit of God. They show what Heb 8 and 10 calls the New Covenant work of God in the heart.

Originally posted by Travelsong:

I understand your argument. It's not as though it will appear fresh to me if you dress it differently.

It's just that you then circle back to an objection that is already addressed by the point made. It means I have to point that out "again".

What is the belief or deed which does the work? How does the man act? What does he do? What exactly is the decision he is faced with?

THis was already addressed in the post showing the world-wide all inclusive act of God and showing in each case the positive response to the individual.

In the case above it is even more explicit as it uses the term "instinctively".

So avoiding these all-inclusive solutions that God gives and even the point of the "instinctive" response of those in the utmost darkness (far more removed from truth than you or I) is a blatant challenge to your suggestion that they would not know what to do.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And this was the "specific" for those in your case and in mine - where we DO have access to God's Word

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But if you actually DO have a Bible - then that SAME love of the truth - that the uninformed have -- if it exists in you would drive you to even more time in the Word. For having found Christ -- we find Him to be "the way the TRUTH and the life".

He is (as John said in John 1) that "light that coming into the world enlightens every person".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God said that "He stands at the door and knocks so that if ANYONE opens the door HE WILL come in" - so you need to respond to that knocking at the door.

You can call it "feeling" or "conscience" or "providence" or anything you like. But God says He is there for everyone - drawing them to Himself and convicting them of their need, their sin, their condition.

This would have been a good point for you to respond showing how that is not a real solution that God is providing - or where the confusion remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
And Romans 2 provides the perfect example of a case where people ARE RESPONDING from instinct ALONE - for they have no access at all to the Word. "Who do INSTINCTIVELY those things of the Law" they SHOW the Law written in their heart - they SHOW what Romans 2 calls the circumcision of the heart done by the Spirit of God. They show what Heb 8 and 10 calls the New Covenant work of God in the heart.

Originally posted by Travelsong:

I understand your argument. It's not as though it will appear fresh to me if you dress it differently.

It's just that you then circle back to an objection that is already addressed by the point made. It means I have to point that out "again".

What is the belief or deed which does the work? How does the man act? What does he do? What exactly is the decision he is faced with?

THis was already addressed in the post showing the world-wide all inclusive act of God and showing in each case the positive response to the individual.

In the case above it is even more explicit as it uses the term "instinctively".

So avoiding these all-inclusive solutions that God gives and even the point of the "instinctive" response of those in the utmost darkness (far more removed from truth than you or I) is a blatant challenge to your suggestion that they would not know what to do.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]WHAT IS IT THAT DOES THE SAVING?

What understanding must a man come to?

What must he believe?

What must he do?


You can't make the question go away Bob.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
And this was the "specific" for those in your case and in mine - where we DO have access to God's Word

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
But if you actually DO have a Bible - then that SAME love of the truth - that the uninformed have -- if it exists in you would drive you to even more time in the Word. For having found Christ -- we find Him to be "the way the TRUTH and the life".

He is (as John said in John 1) that "light that coming into the world enlightens every person".

In Christ,

Bob

</font>[/QUOTE]How am I better off than those who have never had a Bible or access to the Gospel?

What's the difference between my salvation and anyone else?

Do I have a different understanding of slavation?

Do I live differently? Better?

 

[tamborine lady]

Travelsong, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question, posted November 25, 2005 01:30 PM on page 18!

How about it??

Tam

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Travelsong, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question, posted November 25, 2005 01:30 PM on page 18!

How about it??

Tam

You are a precious person. I thank you for your concern. I hope it will become apparent to you exactly why my objections to god's moral character as presented in Christian thinking prevent me from taking unwarranted leaps of faith.


I have given many oppurtunities for the theological heavy hitters to present their case for the Christian god. That offer is extended to you.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Travelsong:

What does it mean to go 'mentally beyond' something?

To have an awareness of something that is beyond that existence. If, for example, we are just in an illusion or we are an illusion, we can't know that, because then we would not be in an illusion anymore. You have to be outside the illusion to know there is one.

So to think we are just a blip on a computer or just a breeze or whatever, we would have to know something more than that to realize that, but since you think we might just be that, it proves that we are not.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
Being a breeze or ripple is a lot like Zen Buddhist thinking.

Sure it's in the Veda's too. It's a sentiment expressed in The Republic.

The Bible recognizes it and provides immediate answer:

The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stand forever.

Those words still hang on my wall.
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but that is not saying we are just a breeze or ripple. It is saying that the temporal world is temporal but God's word is not. It's not at all what you are suggesting.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
Okay, if there is absolute right and wrong, what is the standard for that? There has to be an absolute for there to be absolute right and wrong. And if there is no absolute, then there is no right or wrong. But you did seem to think the biblical god is unjust or unfair. That means you think there is a standard for justice and fairness, but where is it and who determines it?

I'm not claiming to be a prophet here. I haven't "found the light".

If there is absolute right and wrong, I hope it entails the notion of a god who repairs everyone.
</font>[/QUOTE]It does! That is exactly what the atonement is -- it "repairs" those with faith in Christ in the sense that our sins are not counted against us.

 

[tamborine lady]

Travelsong said: I have given many oppurtunities for the theological heavy hitters to present their case for the Christian god. That offer is extended to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tam says: What I am proposing is to let God himself convince you. Let God present His own case!!

Take 30 days and let the God of heaven show you He is real. If at the end of that 30 days, you are nor convinced, then forget about it!

Wouldn't it be worth one month of your life to find out where you will spend eternity? If there is an eternity?

I serve a living God, and I KNOW if you give Him a chance He will show you what no mortal man can.

Selah,

Tam

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Marcia:
To have an awareness of something that is beyond that existence. If, for example, we are just in an illusion or we are an illusion, we can't know that, because then we would not be in an illusion anymore. You have to be outside the illusion to know there is one.

Who says we are an illusion?

Originally posted by Marcia:
So to think we are just a blip on a computer or just a breeze or whatever, we would have to know something more than that to realize that, but since you think we might just be that, it proves that we are not.

My personhood may simply be temporary. In fact, is there any evidence to prove otherwise? Have you ever seen or heard someone who was dead?

Originally posted by Marcia:
Being a breeze or ripple is a lot like Zen Buddhist thinking. Yes, but that is not saying we are just a breeze or ripple. It is saying that the temporal world is temporal but God's word is not. It's not at all what you are suggesting.

James 4:14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

The Bible certainly does depict this life, this creation as temporary. That is all I was saying.

Originally posted by Marcia:
Okay, if there is absolute right and wrong, what is the standard for that? There has to be an absolute for there to be absolute right and wrong. And if there is no absolute, then there is no right or wrong. But you did seem to think the biblical god is unjust or unfair. That means you think there is a standard for justice and fairness, but where is it and who determines it?

I do.You do. Society does. Everyone you've ever met does.

Originally posted by Marcia:
It does! That is exactly what the atonement is -- it "repairs" those with faith in Christ in the sense that our sins are not counted against us.

Well then I refer you once again to all of those millions upon millions (if not billions) of people who have never had the oppurtunity to hear of this Jesus person. What of them?

 

[Marcia]

Travelsong,
1) As far as the illuison goes -- that was just an example. I was saying you can't you just be a blip on a computer screen or a breeze if you think you are, because you'd have to be more than that to know that. It's self-refuting.

2) Yes, this world is temporary but that does not mean we are. In fact, if you are going to quote the bible on that, then why not quote it where it talks about life after death? I can't prove to you your personhood is not temporary just as you can't prove it is.

3) Standard for absolute right and wrong - I asked who sets up the standard, and you said society does and people do. But how can we set a standard if no absolute standard exists? There has to be an absolute for us to even think that things can be unfair or unjust. Justice must exist, but where? And what is perfect justice? Man does not have it but is always striving for it. Why? It's because there is an absolute standard and it is God. Various standards of justice are held by men who rationalize things they want to do because they don't have the absolute standard and cannot be it.

4) You said:

Well then I refer you once again to all of those millions upon millions (if not billions) of people who have never had the oppurtunity to hear of this Jesus person. What of them?

All we know is that man is without excuse to deny God. He must see there is a creator God. I believe that God can reveal Christ to anyone anywhere. If God is just, then no one goes to hell unjustly. If God is not just, then no justice exists and man cannot complain about injustice, because no standard of absolute justice exists.

It is illogical to argue that God is unjust and then reject God as being unjust. You are taking your premise to argue your conclusion. If God is unjust, then don't worry about those who don't hear of Christ because it helps your case. If God is just, then no one is separated from God unjustly.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
But if you actually DO have a Bible - then that SAME love of the truth - that the uninformed have -- if it exists in you would drive you to even more time in the Word. For having found Christ -- we find Him to be "the way the TRUTH and the life".

He is (as John said in John 1) that "light that coming into the world enlightens every person".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TS

How am I better off than those who have never had a Bible or access to the Gospel?

Satan introduces error -- specifically an erroneous view of God so that mankind will be more inclinded to refuse God's drawing "of all mankind". An "ugly God" will be even more difficult to "accept" - to submit too ---

Satan's work with Eve is a perfect example of His efforts to "recast God" so that she would choose not to trust God.

The fact that you know "God so LOVED that HE GAVE" but the cannibal does not - gives you a great deal of freedom to love God in return and to persevere and endure in that attitude of full trust and confidence in Christ.

John 8 "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".

TS
What's the difference between my salvation and anyone else?

No difference at all. And that is the scary part in Romans 2. That is where Paul points out that simply KNOWING more does not save you.

TS
Do I have a different understanding of slavation?

I would hope so.

TS
Do I live differently? Better?

I would hope so.

"To whom that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17

You need not be bound to the dark superstitions of the Cannibal.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Daniel_M]

TS,

OK, now you’ve done it! I lurk on the board from time to time. I always promised myself I would never post on the BB, then along came your thread. Now I have to respond! Your story sounds so much like mine it’s uncanny, although I got an earlier start. I came to your conclusion when I was 21 years old. Like you, I had a strong church background and could recite the Bible backwards and forwards. For a variety of reasons, it just gradually ceased to make sense to me. I had an 18 year hiatus from God, but ultimately returned to the fold, so to speak. Let me tell you, it was a far more difficult decision to return than it was to leave.

What I’m curious about is why are you still hanging around the board? Back on November 19 you said your time here was done, yet here you still are. I found that when I made my decision I had zero interest in discussing it with Christians any more. It seemed to me that I knew the Bible far better than most of them did, and I could talk circles around them. Further, I really didn’t care what they believed. They were welcome to be ignorant (from my point of view) if that’s what they wanted. So, I wonder how firm your decision is. I wonder if you are still discussing this topic because you are still in the process of convincing yourself and affirming your decision.

In retrospect, I can now see that when I was going through my atheist phase I was much like C.S. Lewis when he was going through his. In his book Surprised by Joy, Lewis writes “I was at this time living, like so many atheists or antitheists, in a whirlwind of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world.” That was me, a whirlwind of contradictions.. I was good at bluster, but wasn’t really as happy with it all as I told myself. Perhaps you are more settled in it all than I was.

Anyway, I wish you the best in your travels. You have all of the information you need, and you just will have to sort it all out. I suspect you have a few years ahead of you in the wilderness. I hope your trip isn’t as long as mine was. God will be speaking to you if you care to listen.

Best regards,
Dan

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Travelsong,
1) As far as the illuison goes -- that was just an example. I was saying you can't you just be a blip on a computer screen or a breeze if you think you are, because you'd have to be more than that to know that. It's self-refuting.

We have brains. We can think. We can analyze ourselves. We can observe, predict, test. We learn. We draw logical conclusions. What exactly are you trying to say?

I'm a bit busy now. Holidays and wife is due any time now. Probably won't be hanging around too much. May the universe bless you, may you breathe a sigh of relief and continue on happily ever after.

 

[webdog]

This thread is near 20 pages...can it FINALLY be closed? I thought you had to be a Christian to post in the Christian only forum? Gnostics should not be able to post.