Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

[Michaelt]

Hello Travel...

I can see that you have stumbled upon a quagmire of things, and admittedly I have not read through the 16 pages of posts yet, it seems that you are in disagreement with God. So, I would just have a couple simple questions.

1. What now? Is there anything pressing that you adhere to spiritually? Or will you now just float among things that appeal to your sense of pleasings?

2. If you would be so kind, instead of recapping the 16 pages of posts, could you give me a short synopsis of what has led you to this point? It seems that one of your biggest arguments is that God will extract judgement and punishment on those who do not choose to follow him, is that close?

 

[BobRyan]

TS
And I am asking you to describe the actual steps one must take in order to navigate his way to safety from the impending peril. Clearly you are not suggesting I find a literal fire escape and descend it.

God says "HE draws ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32.

God says that "HE convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12

God says "HE stands the door and knocks and if ANYMAN hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and fellowship" Rev 3.

God says "COME unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11 -- God Loves the World so much so that He gave His Son as "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

But still - He supports a "Free will system." We are as free today to make dumb life-ending decisions as Adam and Eve were 6000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Clearly you did not read my post on Romans 2 that fully refutes your assumption that not having access to the text of the Gospel would disqualify someone from heaven.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TS
Clearly you've never layed out exactly what a mug is supposed to do to understand and rectify his horrendous predicament.

In Romans 2:11-16 we see the following -

#1. God is not partial.
#2. Those who fake the walk don't make it.
#3. Those who have no access to the Bible - to the Gospel "story" are not excluded from heaven because of lack of access to the text. In fact we see the succsful case being someone with no Bible at all and the failing case being the ones fully informed.

#4. In Romans 8 and at the end of Romans 2 we see the same message. The heart responds to the Holy Spirit, the new birth takes place - and by the Spirit we are daily puting to death the deeds of the flesh. It is the "new creation" it is "No longer I who live but Christ that lives within me" that is the way of escape from the burning building.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Travelsong]

How did you get here

Originally posted by BobRyan:
IN the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth -- "For in Six days the Lord Created the Heavens and the earth the sea and all that is in them" -- "and God saw that it was Good".

So then God is responsible for your existence?

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Interestingly in Romans 5 we are told that because of the fall of Adam - death spread to all. So it was not there before. In Romans 8 we are told that corruption entered into nature due to the sin of Adam and Eve.

What are you referring to? Physical death, spiritual death or rebellion?

Originally posted by BobRyan:
So God did not use the death disease starvation and carnager "means" of the atheist evolutionist - He used divine fiat.

I thought we were talking on matters of salvation here. In all honesty, how important is your YEC dogma compared to the gospel message of which my soul is in such desperate need? I don't care how old the earth is or whether animals died before we were somehow cursed because of one man's rebellion. Explain to me how that curse is my fault, or in some way starts me out with a debt to my creator.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The fact that this world of sinless perfection and joy was spoiled by the fall of man shows "consequence" for the choice - the willful choice to ignore a warning of the form "for in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die".

So then God was unaware that man would not just fail, but fail right from the start?

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />TS
And I am asking you to describe the actual steps one must take in order to navigate his way to safety from the impending peril. Clearly you are not suggesting I find a literal fire escape and descend it.

God says "HE draws ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32.

God says that "HE convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12

God says "HE stands the door and knocks and if ANYMAN hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and fellowship" Rev 3.

God says "COME unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11 -- God Loves the World so much so that He gave His Son as "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

But still - He supports a "Free will system." We are as free today to make dumb life-ending decisions as Adam and Eve were 6000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]So what exactly saves the man? Put your finger on the bridge which spans the gulf between man and god. What is the universal expression of the salvation message? Let's have it already.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I agree you are born sinful and fallen and doomed due to the choice of our first parents Adam and Eve. As we all are. But God does not simply say "too bad". God comes to this world and is tortured on the cross and dies for all the sins of all the world. He takes all of our guilt on himself and pays for it all!

I don't see how the curse on our Parent's free will must transfer to all their children. Even if you do assume such a thing, it doesn't answer the question of sin's origin. Or of god's foreknowledge. Or of his creation's complete dependance on him. We are not responsible for the curse of Adam. Those things you find worst about the natural human character are handed to you at conception.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You may call that solution "unnacceptable" but I say "let the people in the burning building choose the fire escape instead of complaining about the smoke".

Especially when that fire escape is built in the blood sweat and tears of God Himself.

So lets say for the sake of argument that we make the obvious choice and we take that way of escape. Fine - then what? A million years later. A billion years later. A trillion years later... we still live in a free will sinless universe.

Who is to say that some one will not get another "bad idea" and sin again on some happy world out there in the Universe of God?

I can imagine all kinds of fantasy scenarios too. Ever read Ray Bradbury's Frost and Fire? That's my favorite scenario.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The fact that God has all this data to present from the history of this world's fall.

When the angels fell, when Adam and Eve fell part of the reason is that sinless, perfect intelligent free will beings still need "data" compelling evidence to make the best choices - if they are going to be expected to choose right every single time.

The problem that we are in - is actually part of the fix.

In Christ,

Bob

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Woodymdt:
1. What now? Is there anything pressing that you adhere to spiritually? Or will you now just float among things that appeal to your sense of pleasings?

The biggest hurdle I overcame was the fear that life is completely meaningless if everything I ever believed in wasn't true. Since my deconversion I've noticed that my aspirations and desires as a husband, father, son, brother, friend and so on really haven't changed. The same basic ideals of human conduct still seem for the most part to exist completley intact.

Originally posted by Woodymdt:
2. If you would be so kind, instead of recapping the 16 pages of posts, could you give me a short synopsis of what has led you to this point? It seems that one of your biggest arguments is that God will extract judgement and punishment on those who do not choose to follow him, is that close?

More specifically, god judges humanity for the condition in which he creates them.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Clearly you did not read my post on Romans 2 that fully refutes your assumption that not having access to the text of the Gospel would disqualify someone from heaven.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />TS
Clearly you've never layed out exactly what a mug is supposed to do to understand and rectify his horrendous predicament.

In Romans 2:11-16 we see the following -

#1. God is not partial.
#2. Those who fake the walk don't make it.
#3. Those who have no access to the Bible - to the Gospel "story" are not excluded from heaven because of lack of access to the text. In fact we see the succsful case being someone with no Bible at all and the failing case being the ones fully informed.

#4. In Romans 8 and at the end of Romans 2 we see the same message. The heart responds to the Holy Spirit, the new birth takes place - and by the Spirit we are daily puting to death the deeds of the flesh. It is the "new creation" it is "No longer I who live but Christ that lives within me" that is the way of escape from the burning building.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, again, what exactly is it that does the saving? A belief that I take on? A Deed I commit? A combination of both? What is the thing I must do or else face my demise?

What is the universal expression of what saves all humanity?

 

[Marcia]

Travelsong, I have received emails much like yours -- from those who once were born-again Christians (according to their view) or who grew up in the church and may or may not have thought of themselves as Christian. They come across what they see as contradictions in the Bible, in God, or come to believe that God is cruel or doesn't exist. So your posts are not unfamiliar to me.

Instead of trying to convince you of anything, I am wondering what you believe now (I did not have time to read all 17 pages so if you said this, sorry).

1. If you do not believe in a god, what do you think will happen when you die?

2. Do you believe you have a purpose or that there is purpose in life? Why or why not?

3. Do you believe there is absolute right and wrong?

I am genuinely interested in your responses. They can be brief or general.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />TS
And I am asking you to describe the actual steps one must take in order to navigate his way to safety from the impending peril. Clearly you are not suggesting I find a literal fire escape and descend it.

God says "HE draws ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32.

God says that "HE convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12

God says "HE stands the door and knocks and if ANYMAN hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and fellowship" Rev 3.

God says "COME unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11 -- God Loves the World so much so that He gave His Son as "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

But still - He supports a "Free will system." We are as free today to make dumb life-ending decisions as Adam and Eve were 6000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]So what exactly saves the man? Put your finger on the bridge which spans the gulf between man and god. What is the universal expression of the salvation message? Let's have it already. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Travelsong, I have received emails much like yours -- from those who once were born-again Christians (according to their view) or who grew up in the church and may or may not have thought of themselves as Christian. They come across what they see as contradictions in the Bible, in God, or come to believe that God is cruel or doesn't exist. So your posts are not unfamiliar to me.

Instead of trying to convince you of anything, I am wondering what you believe now (I did not have time to read all 17 pages so if you said this, sorry).

1. If you do not believe in a god, what do you think will happen when you die?

I don't know. Maybe there's some sort of happy transcendence. Maybe there's only misery for many. Maybe there's nothing. Maybe we are everything and everything is us, and we're an expression of the universe's self. Maybe we're nothing more than a bunch of 1's and 0's, some kind of cosmic computer program, an endless algorithm forever crunching numbers in someone's tax accounting software. Maybe existence is dependant on nothing. Since there would be nothing without existence, we must necessarily exist.

It's quite possible we are just a breeze, a ripple, and then it passes. There's nothing I can do to change the reality of what is in this regard, I have no reason to live in fear of what I can't control.

Originally posted by Marcia:
2. Do you believe you have a purpose or that there is purpose in life? Why or why not?

Sure, purpose is what I live for. Everyone has a purpose.

Originally posted by Marcia:
3. Do you believe there is absolute right and wrong?

That's pretty much the same as asking if I believe in god isn't it? Perhaps there is absolute right and wrong. I believe most people would like to think so.

Originally posted by Marcia:
I am genuinely interested in your responses. They can be brief or general.

Kindness repays kindness. The impartial tone is appreciated.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by webdog:
Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

So then there is no universal expression of the Christian Gospel? One that all people throughout history have had an oppurtunity to confront?

 

[tamborine lady]

Travelsong, there is a scripture in the old testament that says:

Isaiah 35-8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

The bible is so simple, that you shouldn't be able to miss the way of salvation.

If after 17 pages, you still don't understand, I'm surprised you're still interested in talking about the subject.

There are some things that no one can prove to you. I cannot prove to you that the bible was written by the inspiration of God. I just believe that it is!!

I don't know where God came from. He just Is!

But there are some things I do know. To believe in salvation, you do have to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

So I issue you a challange. Study the bible and really and truly try to find the truth.

He will show it to you. The first thing you have to do is find out if you really believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Then did he shed his blood for us, and rise the 3rd day.

Do you believe that?

I truly hope and pray that your answer is Yes.

God bless you, and have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

P.B. Let me know when you have an answer for the question.

 

[Travelsong]

Why should I simply assume true what can't be proven?

What's the need for all this affirmation?

 

[music4Him]

The bible lasting all these years would be a pretty good bet theres something there to distinguish it from other books written throughout the ages.

Post by Travelsong to Bob:
-------------------------------------------------
So what exactly saves the man? Put your finger on the bridge which spans the gulf between man and god. What is the universal expression of the salvation message? Let's have it already.
-------------------------------------------------

Jesus saves the man. John 3:16 ~ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jesus is the one that bridges the gap.

Heb 2:16-17 ~ For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


For me the universal expression of the salvation message is LOVE!

BTW, I don't know what type of church you attended in the past that makes you feel that God is always trying to find a way to punish/condem you, but I found Jesus my Savior in 1999 and I have never been the same! I no longer try to punish myself for things I do wrong. Now I pray and ask God to help me and fogive me and show me (and give me grace (Gods unmerrited favor)) how to resolve my problems. Its more a walk now (and not a lifestyle that I have to fit into like I used to live). When I thought I was saved because I said the sinners prayer and was baptized in water 3 times! I always thought I wasn't doing enough, always messing up ect... I had it in my mind of how a Christian should act and look and live and when I didn't live up to my exspectations I punished myself. Praise the Lord Jesus showed me otherwise and set me free.~

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Selah~
Music4Him

 

[tamborine lady]

Good post, Music.

Travelsong said: Why should I simply assume true what can't be proven?

What's the need for all this affirmation?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

Tam says:

Here's something else you can work on. It is a proven fact, that everywhere, all over the world, when the Bible and Christianity is introduced in a country, or any area of the world, change for the better happens.

People get saved, things start to better, lives are changed!!

One thing you should do is stop looking for all the the bad that can happen, and look for the good.

Think about it this way. I can live for God, and I will be happy, and fulfilled,(cause I look to the the good side). And if when I die, there's nothing there, I haven't lost anything, and been happy all these years.

But if I choose not to be a Christian, wouldn't it be awful to die and find out then that there is a heaven and a hell and I was in the wrong one?

Just a thought.

Peace,

Tam

 

[tamborine lady]

I just checked your profile Travel, and I was just wondering what profession are you in?

You seem to me to be a very smart intellectual person.

Tam

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I just checked your profile Travel, and I was just wondering what profession are you in?

You seem to me to be a very smart intellectual person.

Tam

I am a dock worker. I move freight from one trailer to another.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Here's something else you can work on. It is a proven fact, that everywhere, all over the world, when the Bible and Christianity is introduced in a country, or any area of the world, change for the better happens.

I agree that the more selfless, cooperative approach to humanity as manifest in alot of christian living can be perceived as a benefit.

You must at the very least admit that much evil has been done in the name of Jesus as well as god(s) throughout all religions. How about the violence and bloodshed of Christian Rome? Medieval Europe? Spain? Do you not believe this trend has carried straight through to this day? Ireland? Iraq?

I would go so far as to say that wherever Christianity mixes with politics, government, public policy or moral legislation it pretty much adds no benefit, and in many cases it is a detriment to society.

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
People get saved, things start to better, lives are changed!!

This can happen. It is also evident in many other religions and belief systems, especially when one changes from a life of recklessness to one of discipline and altruism.

If you are suggesting that Christians on the whole are a happier and better adjusted bunch than anyone else, I'd have to disagree. I honestly see no evidence for this. Do you?

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
One thing you should do is stop looking for all the the bad that can happen, and look for the good.

That's exactly why I had to drop Christianity.

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Think about it this way. I can live for God, and I will be happy, and fulfilled,(cause I look to the the good side). And if when I die, there's nothing there, I haven't lost anything, and been happy all these years.

But if I choose not to be a Christian, wouldn't it be awful to die and find out then that there is a heaven and a hell and I was in the wrong one?

Just a thought.

Peace,

Tam

Yes, the fire insurance I mentioned. Life can't be that cheap or superficial. I can't carry Jesus around in my back pocket. The dishonesty would kill me.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
(Question Asked by Marcia) 1. If you do not believe in a god, what do you think will happen when you die?

Response by Travelsong:
I don't know. Maybe there's some sort of happy transcendence. Maybe there's only misery for many. Maybe there's nothing. Maybe we are everything and everything is us, and we're an expression of the universe's self. Maybe we're nothing more than a bunch of 1's and 0's, some kind of cosmic computer program, an endless algorithm forever crunching numbers in someone's tax accounting software. Maybe existence is dependant on nothing. Since there would be nothing without existence, we must necessarily exist.

Hmmm, shades of "The Matrix?" Since you can conceive of all these possibilities, don't you think you are more than these things? How could you conceive of them without a self-consciousness and without being able to mentally go beyond them, if you kknow what I mean?

It's quite possible we are just a breeze, a ripple, and then it passes. There's nothing I can do to change the reality of what is in this regard, I have no reason to live in fear of what I can't control.

Being a breeze or ripple is a lot like Zen Buddhist thinking. But what would be the point of existence and feeling a sense of purpose (as you admit you have), feeling love, feeling desire, having abstract thought, etc. if we are just a breeze or ripple? We must be more or we would not know we were just a breeze or ripple.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
2. Do you believe you have a purpose or that there is purpose in life? Why or why not?

Sure, purpose is what I live for. Everyone has a purpose.
</font>[/QUOTE]But where does your purpose or sense of purpose come from if any of the above is true about existence?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
3. Do you believe there is absolute right and wrong?

That's pretty much the same as asking if I believe in god isn't it? Perhaps there is absolute right and wrong. I believe most people would like to think so.
</font>[/QUOTE]Okay, if there is absolute right and wrong, what is the standard for that? There has to be an absolute for there to be absolute right and wrong. And if there is no absolute, then there is no right or wrong. But you did seem to think the biblical god is unjust or unfair. That means you think there is a standard for justice and fairness, but where is it and who determines it?