Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

Hello Travel...

I can see that you have stumbled upon a quagmire of things, and admittedly I have not read through the 16 pages of posts yet, it seems that you are in disagreement with God. So, I would just have a couple simple questions.

1. What now? Is there anything pressing that you adhere to spiritually? Or will you now just float among things that appeal to your sense of pleasings?

2. If you would be so kind, instead of recapping the 16 pages of posts, could you give me a short synopsis of what has led you to this point? It seems that one of your biggest arguments is that God will extract judgement and punishment on those who do not choose to follow him, is that close?

 

God says "HE draws ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32.

God says that "HE convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12

God says "HE stands the door and knocks and if ANYMAN hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and fellowship" Rev 3.

God says "COME unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11 -- God Loves the World so much so that He gave His Son as "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

But still - He supports a "Free will system." We are as free today to make dumb life-ending decisions as Adam and Eve were 6000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Clearly you did not read my post on Romans 2 that fully refutes your assumption that not having access to the text of the Gospel would disqualify someone from heaven.
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In Romans 2:11-16 we see the following -

#1. God is not partial.
#2. Those who fake the walk don't make it.
#3. Those who have no access to the Bible - to the Gospel "story" are not excluded from heaven because of lack of access to the text. In fact we see the succsful case being someone with no Bible at all and the failing case being the ones fully informed.

#4. In Romans 8 and at the end of Romans 2 we see the same message. The heart responds to the Holy Spirit, the new birth takes place - and by the Spirit we are daily puting to death the deeds of the flesh. It is the "new creation" it is "No longer I who live but Christ that lives within me" that is the way of escape from the burning building.

In Christ,

Bob

 

How did you get here

So then God is responsible for your existence?

What are you referring to? Physical death, spiritual death or rebellion?

I thought we were talking on matters of salvation here. In all honesty, how important is your YEC dogma compared to the gospel message of which my soul is in such desperate need? I don't care how old the earth is or whether animals died before we were somehow cursed because of one man's rebellion. Explain to me how that curse is my fault, or in some way starts me out with a debt to my creator.

So then God was unaware that man would not just fail, but fail right from the start?

 

God says "HE draws ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32.

God says that "HE convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12

God says "HE stands the door and knocks and if ANYMAN hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and fellowship" Rev 3.

God says "COME unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11 -- God Loves the World so much so that He gave His Son as "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

But still - He supports a "Free will system." We are as free today to make dumb life-ending decisions as Adam and Eve were 6000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]So what exactly saves the man? Put your finger on the bridge which spans the gulf between man and god. What is the universal expression of the salvation message? Let's have it already.

 

I don't see how the curse on our Parent's free will must transfer to all their children. Even if you do assume such a thing, it doesn't answer the question of sin's origin. Or of god's foreknowledge. Or of his creation's complete dependance on him. We are not responsible for the curse of Adam. Those things you find worst about the natural human character are handed to you at conception.

I can imagine all kinds of fantasy scenarios too. Ever read Ray Bradbury's Frost and Fire? That's my favorite scenario.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

The biggest hurdle I overcame was the fear that life is completely meaningless if everything I ever believed in wasn't true. Since my deconversion I've noticed that my aspirations and desires as a husband, father, son, brother, friend and so on really haven't changed. The same basic ideals of human conduct still seem for the most part to exist completley intact.

More specifically, god judges humanity for the condition in which he creates them.

 

In Romans 2:11-16 we see the following -

#1. God is not partial.
#2. Those who fake the walk don't make it.
#3. Those who have no access to the Bible - to the Gospel "story" are not excluded from heaven because of lack of access to the text. In fact we see the succsful case being someone with no Bible at all and the failing case being the ones fully informed.

#4. In Romans 8 and at the end of Romans 2 we see the same message. The heart responds to the Holy Spirit, the new birth takes place - and by the Spirit we are daily puting to death the deeds of the flesh. It is the "new creation" it is "No longer I who live but Christ that lives within me" that is the way of escape from the burning building.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, again, what exactly is it that does the saving? A belief that I take on? A Deed I commit? A combination of both? What is the thing I must do or else face my demise?

What is the universal expression of what saves all humanity?

 

Travelsong, I have received emails much like yours -- from those who once were born-again Christians (according to their view) or who grew up in the church and may or may not have thought of themselves as Christian. They come across what they see as contradictions in the Bible, in God, or come to believe that God is cruel or doesn't exist. So your posts are not unfamiliar to me.

Instead of trying to convince you of anything, I am wondering what you believe now (I did not have time to read all 17 pages so if you said this, sorry).

1. If you do not believe in a god, what do you think will happen when you die?

2. Do you believe you have a purpose or that there is purpose in life? Why or why not?

3. Do you believe there is absolute right and wrong?

I am genuinely interested in your responses. They can be brief or general.

 

God says "HE draws ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32.

God says that "HE convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12

God says "HE stands the door and knocks and if ANYMAN hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and fellowship" Rev 3.

God says "COME unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11 -- God Loves the World so much so that He gave His Son as "The Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

But still - He supports a "Free will system." We are as free today to make dumb life-ending decisions as Adam and Eve were 6000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]So what exactly saves the man? Put your finger on the bridge which spans the gulf between man and god. What is the universal expression of the salvation message? Let's have it already. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

 

I don't know. Maybe there's some sort of happy transcendence. Maybe there's only misery for many. Maybe there's nothing. Maybe we are everything and everything is us, and we're an expression of the universe's self. Maybe we're nothing more than a bunch of 1's and 0's, some kind of cosmic computer program, an endless algorithm forever crunching numbers in someone's tax accounting software. Maybe existence is dependant on nothing. Since there would be nothing without existence, we must necessarily exist.

It's quite possible we are just a breeze, a ripple, and then it passes. There's nothing I can do to change the reality of what is in this regard, I have no reason to live in fear of what I can't control.

Sure, purpose is what I live for. Everyone has a purpose.

That's pretty much the same as asking if I believe in god isn't it? Perhaps there is absolute right and wrong. I believe most people would like to think so.

Kindness repays kindness. The impartial tone is appreciated.

 

So then there is no universal expression of the Christian Gospel? One that all people throughout history have had an oppurtunity to confront?

 

Travelsong, there is a scripture in the old testament that says:

Isaiah 35-8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

The bible is so simple, that you shouldn't be able to miss the way of salvation.

If after 17 pages, you still don't understand, I'm surprised you're still interested in talking about the subject.

There are some things that no one can prove to you. I cannot prove to you that the bible was written by the inspiration of God. I just believe that it is!!

I don't know where God came from. He just Is!

But there are some things I do know. To believe in salvation, you do have to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

So I issue you a challange. Study the bible and really and truly try to find the truth.

He will show it to you. The first thing you have to do is find out if you really believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Then did he shed his blood for us, and rise the 3rd day.

Do you believe that?

I truly hope and pray that your answer is Yes.

God bless you, and have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

P.B. Let me know when you have an answer for the question.

 

Why should I simply assume true what can't be proven?

What's the need for all this affirmation?

 

The bible lasting all these years would be a pretty good bet theres something there to distinguish it from other books written throughout the ages.

Post by Travelsong to Bob:
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So what exactly saves the man? Put your finger on the bridge which spans the gulf between man and god. What is the universal expression of the salvation message? Let's have it already.
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Jesus saves the man. John 3:16 ~ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jesus is the one that bridges the gap.

Heb 2:16-17 ~ For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


For me the universal expression of the salvation message is LOVE!

BTW, I don't know what type of church you attended in the past that makes you feel that God is always trying to find a way to punish/condem you, but I found Jesus my Savior in 1999 and I have never been the same! I no longer try to punish myself for things I do wrong. Now I pray and ask God to help me and fogive me and show me (and give me grace (Gods unmerrited favor)) how to resolve my problems. Its more a walk now (and not a lifestyle that I have to fit into like I used to live). When I thought I was saved because I said the sinners prayer and was baptized in water 3 times! I always thought I wasn't doing enough, always messing up ect... I had it in my mind of how a Christian should act and look and live and when I didn't live up to my exspectations I punished myself. Praise the Lord Jesus showed me otherwise and set me free.~

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Selah~
Music4Him

 

Good post, Music.

Travelsong said: Why should I simply assume true what can't be proven?

What's the need for all this affirmation?

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Tam says:

Here's something else you can work on. It is a proven fact, that everywhere, all over the world, when the Bible and Christianity is introduced in a country, or any area of the world, change for the better happens.

People get saved, things start to better, lives are changed!!

One thing you should do is stop looking for all the the bad that can happen, and look for the good.

Think about it this way. I can live for God, and I will be happy, and fulfilled,(cause I look to the the good side). And if when I die, there's nothing there, I haven't lost anything, and been happy all these years.

But if I choose not to be a Christian, wouldn't it be awful to die and find out then that there is a heaven and a hell and I was in the wrong one?

Just a thought.

Peace,

Tam

 

I just checked your profile Travel, and I was just wondering what profession are you in?

You seem to me to be a very smart intellectual person.

Tam

 

I am a dock worker. I move freight from one trailer to another.

 

I agree that the more selfless, cooperative approach to humanity as manifest in alot of christian living can be perceived as a benefit.

You must at the very least admit that much evil has been done in the name of Jesus as well as god(s) throughout all religions. How about the violence and bloodshed of Christian Rome? Medieval Europe? Spain? Do you not believe this trend has carried straight through to this day? Ireland? Iraq?

I would go so far as to say that wherever Christianity mixes with politics, government, public policy or moral legislation it pretty much adds no benefit, and in many cases it is a detriment to society.

This can happen. It is also evident in many other religions and belief systems, especially when one changes from a life of recklessness to one of discipline and altruism.

If you are suggesting that Christians on the whole are a happier and better adjusted bunch than anyone else, I'd have to disagree. I honestly see no evidence for this. Do you?

That's exactly why I had to drop Christianity.

Yes, the fire insurance I mentioned. Life can't be that cheap or superficial. I can't carry Jesus around in my back pocket. The dishonesty would kill me.

 

Hmmm, shades of "The Matrix?" Since you can conceive of all these possibilities, don't you think you are more than these things? How could you conceive of them without a self-consciousness and without being able to mentally go beyond them, if you kknow what I mean?

Being a breeze or ripple is a lot like Zen Buddhist thinking. But what would be the point of existence and feeling a sense of purpose (as you admit you have), feeling love, feeling desire, having abstract thought, etc. if we are just a breeze or ripple? We must be more or we would not know we were just a breeze or ripple.

Sure, purpose is what I live for. Everyone has a purpose.
</font>[/QUOTE]But where does your purpose or sense of purpose come from if any of the above is true about existence?

That's pretty much the same as asking if I believe in god isn't it? Perhaps there is absolute right and wrong. I believe most people would like to think so.
</font>[/QUOTE]Okay, if there is absolute right and wrong, what is the standard for that? There has to be an absolute for there to be absolute right and wrong. And if there is no absolute, then there is no right or wrong. But you did seem to think the biblical god is unjust or unfair. That means you think there is a standard for justice and fairness, but where is it and who determines it?