Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

Which was my point to you earlier. I asked you why did you start this thread. It's obvious you did to try and deceive others into your false theories. You were never looking for "answers", your mind was already made up. I would suggest that this thread be closed and travelsong be banned from the BB.

 

Which was my point to you earlier. I asked you why did you start this thread. It's obvious you did to try and deceive others into your false theories. You were never looking for "answers", your mind was already made up. I would suggest that this thread be closed and travelsong be banned from the BB. </font>[/QUOTE]I never deceived anyone, I merely came to the conclusion that god as he is presented in the Bible and Christian theology is evil, and have been consistent in my presentation from the start. I asked others here to help reconcile my conclusions and to this point no one has. It really is as simple as that.

Feel free to ban me, after all that kind of indiscriminate judgement is consistent with Christianity.

 

Why have you not once made an attempt to answer the objections I've presented? If my thinking is wrong, you might at least demonstrate how it is wrong. Is that too much to ask?

 

Which was my point to you earlier. I asked you why did you start this thread. It's obvious you did to try and deceive others into your false theories. You were never looking for "answers", your mind was already made up. I would suggest that this thread be closed and travelsong be banned from the BB. </font>[/QUOTE]I never deceived anyone, I merely came to the conclusion that god as he is presented in the Bible and Christian theology is evil, and have been consistent in my presentation from the start. I asked others here to help reconcile my conclusions and to this point no one has. It really is as simple as that.

Feel free to ban me, after all that kind of indiscriminate judgement is consistent with Christianity. </font>[/QUOTE]There is not idiscriminate judgements. The Bible tells us to flee the likes of you and not be deceived, as you are obviously trying to do with this thread.

 

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

How so?

 

Did you not read what I wrote a few posts earlier?

Can we locate the position of sin in our DNA? Perhaps even fix it?

What about the breath of life? There is more to life than material. Try measuring that.

Try to do some thinking and answer your own questions by reading the Bible and studying it for yourself. Many of the questions you ask are simply answered with a cursory reading of the entire Bible. I have told you many times you are ignorant and you just keep on expressing your ignorance without any further study. I do not detect an attitude of learning but of a mind made up.

I asked you about measuring love earlier and your response was zip. There have been times when you have completely ignored my posts. Is your mind already made up and I am wasting my time?

 

Did you not read what I wrote a few posts earlier?

Can we locate the position of sin in our DNA? Perhaps even fix it?

What about the breath of life? There is more to life than material. Try measuring that.

Try to do some thinking and answer your own questions by reading the Bible and studying it for yourself. Many of the questions you ask are simply answered with a cursory reading of the entire Bible. I have told you many times you are ignorant and you just keep on expressing your ignorance without any further study. I do not detect an attitude of learning but of a mind made up.

I asked you about measuring love earlier and your response was zip. There have been times when you have completely ignored my posts. Is your mind already made up and I am wasting my time? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't see how your inquiries are in any way related.

Why should I be expected to define love as an answer to the question: "Why does god desire to condemn or judge me for a condition which he is responsible for?"

You can attempt to answer a question with a question but don't expect me to blindly play along. I don't have all of the answers, and I'm not satisfied with a natural materialistic approach to humanity either. However, The problems and contradictions which I have expressed throughout this thred still stand. Address them or show me how my understanding is lacking, but do not accuse me of a lack of thorough Scriptural study if you aren't even prepared to make the case.

 

Your questions are very easy to answer. Trying to convince a person who has no room for learning is like trying to convince a blind man of sight. You are so blind you cannot see even the obvious. From what I see your own way is without proof other than to ask loads of questions out of ignorance and without much thought. Do some thinking and then come back with some intelligent questions. Your questions are like a wild goose chase--a lot of running and feathers with little substance.

 

Your questions are very easy to answer. Trying to convince a person who has no room for learning is like trying to convince a blind man of sight. You are so blind you cannot see even the obvious. From what I see your own way is without proof other than to ask loads of questions out of ignorance and without much thought. Do some thinking and then come back with some intelligent questions. Your questions are like a wild goose chase--a lot of running and feathers with little substance. </font>[/QUOTE]Then feel free to demonstrate why my arguments are of such little consequence. So far all I see are unsupported accusations.

 

… god … is evil …

Travelsong, this may be (probably is) your problem, that you truly believe God is actually evil (and unjust, unmerciful, imperfect, etc). Maybe you even doubt His existence. If this is the case, then the Bible, Christian theology and other Christians can’t possibly convince you otherwise.

The Bible never really argues for the existence of God. It just states the fact. Nor does the bible argue much for the perfections and perfect attributes of God. It just states them, sometimes explicitly and sometimes implicitly. Certainly it does try to help unbelievers, doubters and backsliders to see these things.

If you read the Bible with the mindset that you are going to discover the evil, unfairness and inconsistencies of God, then you will most assuredly find it! Why? Because the Bible presents the truth about God, about man and about the creation. These things are confusing to those who are profane or already have all the answers. Check out some of the myriad atheist/agnostic websites where they know the Bible texts as well as most Christians. Your arguments would be well received in those circles. If you are looking for a god to hate and rebel against, that god it is not hard to find. The Bible plainly says this again and again, in various ways and contexts.

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. Ro 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ro 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Ro 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

You say, to the effect, “I don’t worship a god who is unjust, unfair and unloving.” Ditto! I sympathize with you, because I don’t either! I worship the God who exists, who is perfect in justice, fairness, mercy, love, etc. My misunderstanding and ignorance of this God, the Bible, Christian theology or other Christians will not dissuade me from seeking and worshipping this God. If one looks for this God in the Bible, he will most assuredly find Him!

No one has all the answers. God won’t give us all the answers to every possible question we would like answered. I’m assured He will give us the answers to all we need answered if we go about it in the right way. I think we must start with the correct assumptions about the fundamental nature of Almighty God.

Jn 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. Jn 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" Jn 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

 

The concept of god as manifest by a large percentage of Christian theology, yes.

That particular god which I reject due to inherent contradictions and impossibilities, yes. I do indeed doubt his existence. Those doctrines of the Christian god which genuinely reflect the human experience may very well point to the existence of a true god or some other transcendant phenomenon. I have no reason to deny or confirm belief in such a being or event. I trust if god really exists, he will accept me just fine for my deeds and efforts.

Very true. I have weighed all of the evidence and knowledge culled from my 30 years on this planet and my mind is pretty firmly set.

If someone would care to show me how God can be infinitley benevolent, yet purposely allow his own creation to fall into such a state of disrepair that much of it by his completely indiscernable judgement must be damned to eternal torment, sure, I might begin a trek back.

If you'd kindly tell me how it is that an infinitely knowing and loving god would even want or need to inflict such misery on his own creation then yes, my mind might be persuaded against my current position.

If someone, anyone, could explain to me why a god would condemn humanity by default for an inherent condition which it has very little to no control over, sure, I might be inclined to overhaul my understanding once again.

Most people throughout the history of mankind have accepted god as fact.

What religion could be so firmly implanted in the mind without such concrete absolutes? These sorts of exclusive proclamations are what define every major religion.

That's why I have no explanation for the fact that most of my life I had no problem reconciling the all loving god that we focus most on with his sometimes cruel and often ambivalent nature as it is portrayed in the Bible. I never looked or desired to view god that way. I always blocked those thoughts and ignored or explained away the most gruesome portions of scripture. I just can't do that anymore.

Why? Because it says so? Just like lots and lots of other religions?

I have no reason to be profane. I certainly haven't got many (if any)of the answers. Life is alot more complex than I had believed until recently. I'm okay with that.

I have no reason to hate god. Even if he is the god you worship. I am what I am and he's just gonna have to deal with that.

As far as rebellion goes, I don't see what I must necessarily rebel against that should damn me.

The proposition that I must believe that I am so helpless in my own default state that I must believe god killed himself so he wouldn't have to kill me forever and ever is petty and downright silly. If god wants to torch me for that, I suppose that's his right. More power to him.

You guys continually quote the most widely known pillars of the Christian faith as if I am not intimately aware of them or didn't at one time accept them as reality.

No, I don't think the Christian god is revealed in nature. I don't believe that all men are aware of the Christian god's existence and choose to ignore and suppress their knowledge. Simple observation contradicts this claim.

Well lay them out for me in such a way as to show my objections as frivilous or incorrect.

 

Since Travelsong is circling back to the same point addressed here --

#1. Eternal damnation is the fate of those who reject the way God presents. Your complaint is like the one who whines "Why is it I must take the fireman's way out of this burning building anyway? Why can't I just stay here and mind my own business. THe fire should just mind its own business and let me relax a while".

#2. Also Eternal Damnation in the Bible is such that the MAtt 10 statement of Christ is "true" - God "Destroys BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell - in the same way that wicked man DESTROYS the body but is unnable to destroy the soul.

I refer again to the "door of escape in the burning building" and those who would whine that they should not have to take it.

Clearly you did not read my post on Romans 2 that fully refutes your assumption that not having access to the text of the Gospel would disqualify someone from heaven.

You are just not reading. God did not create a world of pain and suffering and neither did He (according to HEb 1 and Job 1 and 2) create JUST ONE world. He is the ruler of the entire universe and the "Free will" question is respected in the system HE created.

So in Love He dies to redeem us - to redeem a world that CHOSE to fall - chose rebellion. You can honestly look at that and whine?

You are not reading. In 2Cor 4:4 and in Eph 2:1-3 (and in Matt 4 and in Job 1) it is shown that Satan is the "god of this world" in that he has been given its dominion. Note that he offers to give that back to Christ in Matt 4. So although God Himself is supreme over all - there is a set of rules, a system that is real that is enforced by God and that shows "consequences" for mankind choose the serpent over the Creator.

That is good news and bad news.

Good news that you are now challenging your own faulty assumptions. Bad news that you are just "making up the answers" now rather than seeking truth through the Word of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Not that you are reading - but...

#1. You are wrong about eternal torment as God has already stated in Matt 10 that both body and soul are "destroyed in hell fire" as mankind today "destroys the body" when we kill someone.

#2. You are mistaken about God's relationship with free will intelligent beings. You argue that "better than free will is robots!". Your view of God and intelligent life and what it means to have a meaningful relationship is too small. SHould a person really drug their spouse rather than let them cause suffering by leaving?? Do you have any concept of what you are proposing?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Everyone is always claiming to have satisfactorily addressed my arguments, yet I never see any direct answers. Why is that?

Of course you didn't, you're hundreds of miles away.

Okay then, exactly what way does god present to people? What is the minimum that a man must believe or do to save himself?

What does it matter if God destroys me or tortures me forever? Why should I be concerned with either theological position when both are equally unreasonable?

Clearly you've never layed out exactly what a mug is supposed to do to understand and rectify his horrendous predicament.

How did you get here?

You mean that system where god is infinitely knowledgable of every facet of his creation and at the same time governs every law of our existence, yet still managed to give us the ability to condemn ourselves without the knowledge that we would choose to do so?

Do you mean to say that you have chosen perfection now? Does your god belief make you a better person than I?

Here's where we complete the transfer of responsibility from god to man and finally to Satan. So Satan is the first deceiver.

Explain how god made Satan pure and perfect, yet somehow susppended his foreknowledge of Satan's future rebellion or else mistakenly created Satan flawed.

Feel free to take my questions from the last post point for point.

Define Freewill.

 

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
Eternal damnation is the fate of those who reject the way God presents. Your complaint is like the one who whines "Why is it I must take the fireman's way out of this burning building anyway? Why can't I just stay here and mind my own business. THe fire should just mind its own business and let me relax a while".
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We must be missing something here in the translation. I am saying it is like a fireman standing at the door or escape and telling everyone in the burning building to come safely outside of the burning building.

You appear to be saying "oh come on - why can't we all just stay in this burning building and mind our own business".

My argument is that since we realize we are in a burning building - there is no shame in taking the fire escape.

You seem to view it as a huge negative.

In Christ,

Bob

 

We must be missing something here in the translation. I am saying it is like a fireman standing at the door or escape and telling everyone in the burning building to come safely outside of the burning building.

You appear to be saying "oh come on - why can't we all just stay in this burning building and mind our own business".

My argument is that since we realize we are in a burning building - there is no shame in taking the fire escape.

You seem to view it as a huge negative.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]And I am asking you to describe the actual steps one must take in order to navigate his way to safety from the impending peril. Clearly you are not suggesting I find a literal fire escape and descend it.

 

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
#2. Also Eternal Damnation in the Bible is such that the MAtt 10 statement of Christ is "true" - God "Destroys BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell - in the same way that wicked man DESTROYS the body but is unnable to destroy the soul.
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Many people have sacrifices their lives for a loved one, in war, or simply died of old age. I know of no one who facing death said "I would just as soon be tortured forever".

Apparently you are not taking this seriously.

AS for the idea that God's government should not be allowed to HAVE a death sentance as the punishment for sin -- take it up with Him. His word says "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23. Furthermore He claims in Romans 5 death spread to all mankind due to the one man's sin - Adam.

That is just the Word of God though - so maybe there is a way to talk Him out of it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Many people have sacrifices their lives for a loved one, in war, or simply died of old age. I know of no one who facing death said "I would just as soon be tortured forever".

Apparently you are not taking this seriously.

AS for the idea that God's government should not be allowed to HAVE a death sentance as the punishment for sin -- take it up with Him. His word says "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23. Furthermore He claims in Romans 5 death spread to all mankind due to the one man's sin - Adam.

That is just the Word of God though - so maybe there is a way to talk Him out of it.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Take note that my dismissal of either scenario is due to that minor little point I keep bringing up about god being responsible for the state of his creation. I didn't make me the way I am. I am what I am and I don't have the ability to change that. I can't make myself believe all of these wacky contradictions that none of you will address. Won't someone at least acknowledge that there are real actual glaring problems with Christian thinking?

 

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
You are just not reading. God did not create a world of pain and suffering and neither did He (according to HEb 1 and Job 1 and 2) create JUST ONE world.
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IN the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth -- "For in Six days the Lord Created the Heavens and the earth the sea and all that is in them" -- "and God saw that it was Good".

Interestingly in Romans 5 we are told that because of the fall of Adam - death spread to all. So it was not there before. In Romans 8 we are told that corruption entered into nature due to the sin of Adam and Eve.

So God did not use the death disease starvation and carnager "means" of the atheist evolutionist - He used divine fiat.

The fact that this world of sinless perfection and joy was spoiled by the fall of man shows "consequence" for the choice - the willful choice to ignore a warning of the form "for in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I agree you are born sinful and fallen and doomed due to the choice of our first parents Adam and Eve. As we all are. But God does not simply say "too bad". God comes to this world and is tortured on the cross and dies for all the sins of all the world. He takes all of our guilt on himself and pays for it all!

You may call that solution "unnacceptable" but I say "let the people in the burning building choose the fire escape instead of complaining about the smoke".

Especially when that fire escape is built in the blood sweat and tears of God Himself.

So lets say for the sake of argument that we make the obvious choice and we take that way of escape. Fine - then what? A million years later. A billion years later. A trillion years later... we still live in a free will sinless universe.

Who is to say that some one will not get another "bad idea" and sin again on some happy world out there in the Universe of God?

The fact that God has all this data to present from the history of this world's fall.

When the angels fell, when Adam and Eve fell part of the reason is that sinless, perfect intelligent free will beings still need "data" compelling evidence to make the best choices - if they are going to be expected to choose right every single time.

The problem that we are in - is actually part of the fix.

In Christ,

Bob