Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

[Travelsong]

Again this is your mistake. Your soul is corrupted, like your body, and your spirit is dead until it is made live by the Holy Spirit. Only Christ can do that. (Eph.2:1)
DHK

You'll have to forgive me if I'm no longer into playing that tangible/intangible shell game.

That particular distinction between soul and body really doesn't make any sense, but I don't need to take that avenue.

So you are telling me that god creates a perfect spirit essence upon conception (or sometime shortly thereafter) imbues it into the sinfully corrupt material growing in the womb, and then says "Haha! How's it feel to need me now!" Is that the basic idea?

Again, you'll have to forgive me. I'm a reductionist, and I won't settle for anything less than exactly what I'm supposed to be accountable for.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Words will fail us all, Travelsong, and the only thing that will suffice to help you settle on seeking your eternal destiny through Christ is the Spirit of God dealing with you directly on that subject, not anything I or anyone else can say. So I am praying on your behalf that God's Spirit will visit you with the information you are seeking.

For if God does not deal with you heart to Heart, spirit to Spirit, then the rest is of no avail anyway.

By the way, let me thank you for the faith, bravery, and honesty you show by continuing to post here in spite of your current thinking.

Heavenly Father, I thank you that in my own time of testing you graciously condescended to reveal yourself to me and revealed to me that it is in Jesus Christ I am to seek and find You. I ask that you continue to work with our brother here and give him the guidance He needs from You, there is no other that will do.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
So you are telling me that god creates a perfect spirit essence upon conception (or sometime shortly thereafter) imbues it into the sinfully corrupt material growing in the womb, and then says "Haha! How's it feel to need me now!"

Reads like Catholicism.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Salvation isn't based on works, only the grace of god? In other words we contribute nothing, only god can perform the work which will save us.

Over and over you presume to know what scripture teaches and yet you claim to reject it. The problem is you reject what you think it teaches when it does not teach what you think it does. How do you formulate such a theology of God when you do not even understand the historical context of the Bible you claim to reject. You are rejecting a false god which you think the Bible teaches but does not, but have not embraced the true God. Simply put, you do not even know what the Bible teaches in light of its historical context and yet claim to be wise and know what scripture teaches. Yet, you do not understand the most basic principle of interpreting any written document, namely, context.

If you read the book of Hebrews you will see that salvation is secured in Jesus Christ. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. Your response to God is what you are accountable for.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Why should god condemn man for the very state he created man in?

Do you really expect God to create God? Only God is perfect.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Words will fail us all, Travelsong, and the only thing that will suffice to help you settle on seeking your eternal destiny through Christ is the Spirit of God dealing with you directly on that subject, not anything I or anyone else can say. So I am praying on your behalf that God's Spirit will visit you with the information you are seeking.

I don't think I've ever spoken to you directly before, but I have always enjoyed your personality and presence on this board. You seem to be one of those rare individuals who actually lives the life of peace and love that he professes.Thank you for your kind words.

Unfortunately I do have to object to the idea that I'm only able to gain the knowledge and answers to my questions through some sort of spiritual communiqué. I have a brain, and I can understand the objections I've raised here, certainly I can understand their resolution if such resolution exists.

If god is omni and max then the world as we understand it, and the theology of Christian teaching as it is presented in the Bible makes no sense.

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
For if God does not deal with you heart to Heart, spirit to Spirit, then the rest is of no avail anyway.

He did create my mind with the capacity for reason did he not? Now I may have no real formal education beyond high school, but I do believe in my ability to understand and search the full range of human experience.

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
By the way, let me thank you for the faith, bravery, and honesty you show by continuing to post here in spite of your current thinking.

I'm still driven by the same desire to know, to understand. I'm open to the truth, no matter how ugly it may appear.

 

[Travelsong]

There can be no good without evil. There can also be no evil without good.

gb, when you said this, my response was "So god can't exist without evil?"

That was not to say I believed the conclusion drawn from your assertion, only that it must naturally follow if given your assertion as truth.

So please, stop telling me what I believe, or that I've been holding on to gnostic or Catholic sentiments and so on. I'm simply doing the best I can to understand where everyone is coming from here. You must admit there are a wide range of conflicting beliefs among the small sampling of people who have contributed to just this thread. How much moreso in all of Christendom?

The problem stems from the fact that Christianity tends to operate on a sliding scale when it comes to reconciling the accountablilty of man with the full sovereignty of god. Everyone seems to have at most only a vague notion of how these two things are supposed to harmonize.

Tell me exactly what does a man need to believe to be saved?

That he is incapable of living a guilt free life?

That the punishment for this inescapable fact will upon death be eternal hellfire?

That a god in his infinite benevolence decided to kill himself in man's place to give either (a)his chosen or (b)all people an oppurtunity to escape eternal hellfire?

Perhaps the fundamentals aren't so fundamental under intense scrutiny after all. Is there a chance we can agree on the foundational premise by which Christianity is supposed to operate? I think that would lead to alot less confusion.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There can be no good without evil. There can also be no evil without good.

gb, when you said this, my response was "So god can't exist without evil?"

So please, stop telling me what I believe, or that I've been holding on to gnostic or Catholic sentiments and so on. I'm simply doing the best I can to understand where everyone is coming from here. You must admit there are a wide range of conflicting beliefs among the small sampling of people who have contributed to just this thread. How much moreso in all of Christendom?

The problem stems from the fact that Christianity tends to operate on a sliding scale when it comes to reconciling the accountablilty of man with the full sovereignty of god. Everyone seems to have at most only a vague notion of how these two things are supposed to harmonize.

Tell me exactly what does a man need to believe to be saved?

That he is incapable of living a guilt free life?

That the punishment for this inescapable fact will upon death be eternal hellfire?

That a god in his infinite benevolence decided to kill himself in man's place to give either (a)his chosen or (b)all people an oppurtunity to escape eternal hellfire?
</font>[/QUOTE]In Genesis 1 God did exist without evil and He existed without the creation of people. Over from what I read it is clear that you have not studied scripture very intently and have come to conclusions that do not coincide with what the Bible teaches.

From what I have read I believe you have a mixture of your own thought, what you have been taught and what you read. I see little or no evidence that you do understand the historical background/context of scripture. You just think you do. Some of the questions you ask are so easily answered with even at times a simple reading of the Bible.

Satan would love nothing more than for you to be misled and detour from the truth. It is very clear to me that you are misled both theologically and in terms of your personal thinking. Often what I read that you write is a mixture of truth and error.

You need to challenge yourself to study scripture until you have the historical background and understand its context.

If you read about cultures around the world you will see that each culture has at least a simple understanding about sin and the payment for sin. That is a universal understanding not just a Christian concept.

If I understand reductionism right it is wrong. You cannot understand the whole by studying the parts. If that were the case then you could put life back into a dead person. A life is not the sum of the body parts alone.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by gb93433:
You need to challenge yourself to study scripture until you have the historical background and understand its context.

The problem is that every “free thinker”, “skeptic”, “agnostic” or “atheist” that I’ve meet never reads the bible for understanding. They read the bible for contradictions; they approach the bible for all the wrong reasons.

I suspect that when travelsong reads the bible now, it’s to find things he doesn’t agree with the way his god should be.

 

[Travelsong]

So far all I see are empty accusations and meaningless speculation.

It's one thing to claim that I don't understand what the Bible teaches about God, it's quite another to demonstrate it.

Where have I gone astray?

 

[Bro. James]

Jesus to Nicodemus: "you must be born again". Gospel by John, Ch. 3.

Nicodemus was a master of Israel who knew of Jesus, but did not "know" him as Lord and Master.

Go to Romans Ch. 1-5. Let the Holy Spirit show you what you need to do.

The malady is still: SIN and the penalty thereof. Realizing the condition makes one repent or it hardens the heart. Only the Spirit of God can soften the heart. Your words indicate a hardening of the heart. That is your ego. Jesus does not save the ego. It will perish along with the rebrobate flesh.

Now what?

Selah,

Bro. James

[ November 16, 2005, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
The malady is still: SIN and the penalty thereof. Realizing the condition makes one repent or it hardens the heart. Only the Spirit of God can soften the heart. Your words indicate a hardening of the heart. That is your ego. Jesus does not save the ego. It will perish along with the rebrobate flesh.

I see no reason to repent for a condition which god created me in.

 

[Bro. James]

Lets take a journey in juris prudence:

Study: the law of sin and death.

Then study: the perfect law of liberty.

Now make a personal application.

Question: Why did God put Adam and Eve out of the garden--away from the Tree of Everlasting Life?

We do err blaming our shortcomings on God. That is not how He created our genetic forefather: Adam. Adam sinned willfully--so does his progeny.

"Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." God provided the only remedy--how can we reject so great a salvation?

Have you studied the sovereignty of God?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
We do err blaming our shortcomings on God. That is not how He created our genetic forefather: Adam.

That is how he created me. Further, are you saying sin is genetic?

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Adam sinned willfully--so does his progeny.

So I have the same oppurtunity to willfully escape the curse that befell Adam?

Originally posted by Bro. James:

Have you studied the sovereignty of God?

Selah,

Bro. James

As in total depravity, unconditional election, particular atonement, irresistable grace and perseverance of the saints?

Sure, I used to believe all of that. At one time I also didn't believe it. At another time I had a mixture of beliefs in my attempt to reconcile the accountability of man with the sovereignty of god. Then I got honest with myself. None of it makes any sense.

 

[cojosh]

**I see no reason to repent for a condition which god created me in.**

God didn't create a creature with a sinful condition when He formed Adam. He created Adam in His own image. God simply created Adam as a free-will agent, because God is a free-will agent. No one is forcing God to do anything and God doesn't force us to do anything. He allows us to have a choice. Adam chose to disobey God's commandment therefore he suffered the consequence. If we choose to reject God's gift of salvation we will suffer the consequences. We all suffer from a sin nature. We inherit from Adam and it is exercised through choices we make. We are separated from God, but through the sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary we can be united with God.

 

[cojosh]

Yeah, the TULIP theory makes no sense.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by cojosh:
**I see no reason to repent for a condition which god created me in.**

God didn't create a creature with a sinful condition when He formed Adam. He created Adam in His own image. God simply created Adam as a free-will agent, because God is a free-will agent. No one is forcing God to do anything and God doesn't force us to do anything. He allows us to have a choice. Adam chose to disobey God's commandment therefore he suffered the consequence. If we choose to reject God's gift of salvation we will suffer the consequences. We all suffer from a sin nature. We inherit from Adam and it is exercised through choices we make. We are separated from God, but through the sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary we can be united with God.

I don't see how blaming Adam for my condition makes me any more accountable than it does to simply say God made me this way.

In either case, I am made by god in a state for which he desires to condemn me. Sorry, don't buy it.

 

[cojosh]

He doesn't want to have to condemn you. You can be free from the wrath of God when you accept His free gift. Have you done so?

 

[Michael52]

Travelsong

Adam is not responsible for your condition, YOU ARE! Your first willfull sin only proved that you are like, or "in" Adam. With your sin, you also, like Adam, proved that you are NOT God. Every human being ever conceived had the opportunity to avoid all sin, yet all (save One) sinned and fell short. If you don't agree, you need to show us who. You maybe?

Do you think that somehow your eternal fate is in your own power? It seems to me that when I die, what little power I possessed during life will necessarily leave me just as the life leaves my rotting flesh. The minimal ability I had to dictate the terms of my existance will vanish and I will be totally dependent on the terms of my Creator.

No matter how hard I try to justify myself apart from God, I will never succede. I must somehow "align" myself with His program, whether I fully agree with or understand it.

Rather than continue to align myself with Adam, I need to (somehow) align myself with Jesus, who unlike Adam and me, IS God. Only God has the power of eternal life. He will give us eternal life, as a gift, if we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Of course, we can always reject this gift and blame God for our shortcomings if we feel He has been so "unfair" by allowing us life to prove and see for ourselves that we are but finite beings.

To God be the glory!

 

[Travelsong]

Okay, so now I was born like Adam with the choice to be sin free?

There really isn't much consistency here is there?