Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Once you remove the necessity of Jesus and knowledge of the historical events surrounding his life, death and resurrection by saying "everyone gets a chance", you acknowledge there are other paths. The significance of such an assertion can't be ignored.

Are there are other paths?
You said "once you knock off the necessity of Jesus...his life, death, and resurrection...there are other paths."
That is precisely why there are no other paths. Christ can claim to be the only the only path because of his death, burial and resurrection. He lives. He conquered sin and death. Mohammed and other religious leaders are still in the grave, but Christ lives.
That is why he alone has the power to forgive sins. He paid the penalty to give an asssurance that sins can be forgiven through his blood. There is no assurance of forgiveness of sin in any other religion, but in Christ alone. Christ arose! He lives! In Him is life, and in Him alone. There are no other paths.
DHK

 

[Travelsong]

Doesn't matter. If I can live my life without ever hearing of Jesus, or of my default damned state and still be given a "chance", then Christianity isn't necessary. My "salvation" will be based upon either how I've lived my life or some decision presented to me at death.

Of course this doesn't even address the many other contradictions I've raised.

How does a perfect, infinite, omni benevolent being cause people to be born in a default damned state? How does all this evil inherent to his own defective creation glorify him?

Where does this sin nature have it's origin? The flesh or the soul? How is one responsible for being created with this sinful state?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
How does a perfect, infinite, omni benevolent being cause people to be born in a default damned state? How does all this evil inherent to his own defective creation glorify him?

Where does this sin nature have it's origin? The flesh or the soul? How is one responsible for being created with this sinful state?

The theology behind your questions is like concrete--all mixed up and permanently set. Do some thinking.

All the answers to the questions you just asked are found in your Bible.

Sometime read 1 Cor 12 and Ro 12. Are you saying that a creation which is less then perfect cannot glorify its creator? If one were not less than the creator it would be God.

When you have the answers to all your questions let me know. When you do, then you will be God and have all the answers. Sounds like what you believe is Gnosticism or Mormonism.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Reminds me of my brother-in-law: "It's better to have fire insurance."

Who cares about what your brother-in-law thinks about God. So your theology of who God is comes from your brother-in-law? Don't you read your Bible or do you just listen to ignorance?

I have fire insurance for my home.

Try to remember what the Bible says in Mt. 7:21-23,"Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Who cares about what your brother-in-law thinks about God. So your theology of who God is comes from your brother-in-law? Don't you read your Bible or do you just listen to ignorance?

I was referring specifically to webdog's thought that as long as I once professed Christ as saviour, then I won't meet a god who is waiting to kill me forever and ever upon my death. In other words, retain just a slight remnant of that belief and pow! You'll eek your way in through the gates of heaven just before they slam shut. You should pay more attention to what I am saying.

Originally posted by gb93433:
Sometime read 1 Cor 12 and Ro 12. Are you saying that a creation which is less then perfect cannot glorify its creator? If one were not less than the creator it would be God.

I am saying that a god who creates beings in a default condemned state is evil.

If we truly are conceived in sin, set on an innevitable path to destruction apart from some divine intervention, if our perception is skewed and our will bent, and as a result all of our works are but "filthy rags", who is to blame?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Doesn't matter. If I can live my life without ever hearing of Jesus,

Yes it does matter. If you are a Christian your life is not your to live. It belongs to Christ. He paid a great price for it--the price of His blood. Your body is not your own to do with as you please (1Cor.6:19,20).

If (and that isn't the case here) you haven't heard of Christ, then leave that problem to Christ. He said (Titus 2:11) that He will give you the opportunity to hear and believe on him. If you have a problem with that promise then your problem is believing the promises of God (in effect calling God a liar).

or of my default damned state and still be given a "chance", then Christianity isn't necessary.

This is your own warped thinking--your imagination. It is not what the Bible teaches about God. There is no "default damned state." "God so loved the world. He meant everyone. He died for all (1John 2:1,2). There is no "by default damned." He saves to the uttermost. He gives everyone at least one chance even if they live in the remotest part of the world. If you truly were concerned about this problem, you would get right with God, find the neediest place in the world and be a missionary to that part of the world. There is an interesting thread in the Missions Forum: "Would you be a missionary to the Arabs?"

"and still be given a chance" You are not given any chances outside of Christ. This is it. Now, in this age of grace, Christ offers to be your Savior. Tomorrow may be too late. After your death, or when Jesus comes (which ever happens first), it will be too late, for then you will face him as your judge. There are no second chances--only in this lifetime, before you die do you have the chance to embrace Christ as Savior. That holds true for the African, Asian, etc.

My "salvation" will be based upon either how I've lived my life or some decision presented to me at death.

Not true.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
Salvation is based on a relationship, not a religion of works. If one does not have a relationship with Christ, it doesn't matter how many or how good your works are. It is the relationship with Christ that saves--not the religion. Good works are as filthy rags in God's sight--Isa. 64:6

Of course this doesn't even address the many other contradictions I've raised.

You contradict yourself only.

How does a perfect, infinite, omni benevolent being cause people to be born in a default damned state? How does all this evil inherent to his own defective creation glorify him?

God didn't cause the fall. Adam of his own will chose to sin. He didn't have to, but he did. And thus sin entered into the human race. Don't blame God for sin. He didn't author it.

Sin doesn't glorify God. It is wicked, just as some of your thoughts about God are wicked.
However, the Bible does say that "even the wrath of man shall praise him."
We don't understand his ways; the battle is not over. But in the end Satan will be defeated and thrown into the Lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. We know the end from the beginning. There are battles to fight on the way, but we have the assurance of victory--something no other religion has. Why--We have a relationship, not a religion.

Where does this sin nature have it's origin? The flesh or the soul? How is one responsible for being created with this sinful state?

Sin had its origing in Satan, when he started a rebellion against God, and led one third of the angels with him. You can read about Satan, and his fall in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

The sin nature is in the flesh. We inherit it. Paul talks about the flesh being exceedingly sinful, and equates it to being carnal.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

With the flesh we serve sin.
With the mind we serve God. (as well as with the Spirit.)
DHK

 

[Travelsong]

God didn't cause the fall. Adam of his own will chose to sin. He didn't have to, but he did. And thus sin entered into the human race. Don't blame God for sin. He didn't author it.

Did God not know Adam would sin? Was this a complete surprise to him? Why would god choose to create every soul after the fall without the same choice as Adam?

Where does this sin nature originate? The soul or the flesh?

Where do I start with all the other contradictions in your thinking?

Christ is the only way, yet if you don't ever hear the Christian gospel you are still somehow given a chance? A chance based on what?

Salvation isn't based on works, only the grace of god? In other words we contribute nothing, only god can perform the work which will save us.

How does this make me accountable?

 

[TexasSky]

Sunday my Pastor offered a sermon that was very thought provoking. I can't quote him word for word, but I can give you the gist of it, and it applies to all of this.

He started out by saying: This world is broken. Look around you, the evidence is everywhere. Man keeps trying to fix it. They created laws because it is so broken, but the laws don't fix what is wrong. Nations try to fix it with treaties, but that doesn't fix it. They tried education, and education is wonderful, but it doesn't fix the world. Some people think relationships will fix it, but they go from relationship to relationship because they have a hole in their soul that they can't seem to fill. That hole is where God should be. God is all that fix the world, and man inherently KNOWS that, man SEEKS God because man can feel the lack of God.

God, the Creator of all things, is Holy, Just, Righteous. He is also loving, forgiving, merciful. How do you reconcile that. How do you reconcile all the evil that is in this world to a holy, just and righteous God with a nature that wants to love, forgive and offer mercy? You do it by BEING God and setting the terms for achieving mercy and forgiveness.

Sin entered this world when an angelic being rebelled against God. An angelic being was literally cast out of heaven because he wanted to try to overthrow God, and he decided that he would try to "get even" with God by corrupting God's greatest creation - man. He took a beautiful form and he went to man and he said "doubt God."

It was a simple test. You have paradise. You can eat anything you want or need without working at all, without suffering at all, except this ONE. THIS one. How easy should that test have been to pass? Anything you ever wanted or needed in exchange for one thing?

But this fallen-angelic-being said, "Don't listen to him." He introduced "doubting God's word" to the world, and we failed that test. And that is when the world was broken. We were infected with sin. It started with Adam and Eve, and they passed the disease of sin to their children and Cain committed the first crime - murder. And he passed it to his children. You have sin because your parents infected you, and they have it because their parents infected them.. and all the way back to that first failed test, we've all been infected with sin. We all have doubted God's word. We all have done things we should be ashamed of that only God knows we've done.

But God is merciful and loving so from the moment that first sin infected the world, God was planning a way to make it right again, to FIX what was broken.

He came to Moses and He said, "Let me show you and all of mankind how to reconicle things with me. Let me give you the terms by which you can fix what you have done." Blood is life. To fix the break required a blood sacrifice. So, Aaron, once a year, on the day of atonement, would enter the Holy of Holies, and he would take the blood of the purest lamb that was sacrificed and he would sprinkle that blood on the lid of the ark of the covenant in which God had manifested Himself. The ark contained the tablets, the rod and manna - the the presence of God. And God would accept that blood as the atonement for the previous year of sin. Then another year would go by, and the process would be repeated. Until Christ came.

Christ was the ULTIMATE and FINAL blood sacrifice. He was pure, he was MAN, and God said, "Those who have faith will be atoned for through this son."

This is where Justice comes from. GOD set the terms. You cannot just say, "Hey, God, I'm sorry," you cannot set your own terms of forgiveness. God is JUST and RIGHTEOUS and He set His terms. CHRIST is the term He set. "No one comes to the father except by the son."

So what about all those people in Aaron's day? Their atonement was a blood sacrifice that looked forward, with faith, to the messiah, the savior, that God promised. Christ was their atonement in their future. They had to believe in God's word, God's promise, and they had to obey God's rules of a blood atonement.

Christ is our atonement from the past. WE have to believe God's word, God's promise, and we have to obey God's terms. We have to come to Christ in faith, to come to God for forgiveness.

And even though we continue to be infected by sin, that atonement that Christ offered continues to clense us and continues to meet the terms God set for us."

God is not evil and to be feared, but God IS just and righteous, and God DOES have the right to set the terms. Whether we "like that or not" is irrelevant.

A parent has a right to set terms in his house.
A teacher has a right to set terms in their class.
An employer has a right to set terms in their work place.
God has the right to set HIS terms for forgiveness of those who have offended Him, and His term is Christ.

 

[Travelsong]

Sorry, I missed this before you edited it:

The sin nature is in the flesh. We inherit it. Paul talks about the flesh being exceedingly sinful, and equates it to being carnal.

So then my soul is good and holy? Why would god want to imbue a corrupt vessel with a pure sentience? Who is responsible for controlling all of the laws that govern the universe (including this physical transmission of a sin nature)? Is this sin nature a broken strand of DNA? Can science perhaps discover and fix it? How am I responsible for being born with a condition that was transmitted to me through absolutely no act of my own?

If the Bible is primarily concerned with life and death in the eternal spiritual sense, what does it matter if our bodies are bent and broken as long as our souls are created by god as perfect and holy and untainted?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
[QB] Doesn't matter. If I can live my life without ever hearing of Jesus, or of my default damned state and still be given a "chance", then Christianity isn't necessary. My "salvation" will be based upon either how I've lived my life or some decision presented to me at death.

Actually, this doesn't logically follow. "Christianity" is still essential in the sense that if it weren't for the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension of Christ then no one could be saved, irrespective if they have or have not heard the specific name of Christ. This is because sin against God changes our ontological state to that of spiritual death, and all share this fate because of that fact that all have sinned (not because they have or haven't heard some specific didactic presentation.)

Thankfully, God in His love condescended to become a man Himself and through His life, death, and resurrection made it possible of human beings to have deliverance from sin, death, and damnation. If some who have never heard the complete specific details about Jesus Christ and are yet saved by God's mercy, it is still on the basis of the person and work of Christ (and not by some pelagianistic pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps) that those are saved. Folks are accountable to the revelation they have have actually received whether general (from creation or consciousness--see Romans 1:20 and 2:6-16 respectively) or special (the gospel kerygma). Yet it is only on the basis of who Christ is and what He did (and still does) that provides the ontological possibility of salvation.

That is why this is not a belief in universalism nor a pluralistic sentiment that other paths are available from man to God. If some Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc (who haven't heard the gospel) are ultimately saved it will be because of God's grace and mercy based on the person and work of Christ and God's judgement of the non-Christians' response to the revelation they did receive, inspite of any particular Islamic, Judaistic, Buddhist or Hindu belief or practice.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
If the Bible is primarily concerned with life and death in the eternal spiritual sense, what does it matter if our bodies are bent and broken as long as our souls are created by god as perfect and holy and untainted?

This actually sounds more like gnosticism than historical, biblical Christianity.

 

[Travelsong]

This is because sin against God changes our ontological state to that of spiritual death, and all share this fate because of that fact that all have sinned (not because they have or haven't heard some specific didactic presentation.)

You're still saying that our default sinful state causes our own spiritual death.

How is that our fault? God created us with the same inherent limitations that he desires to condemn us for yes? If we all sin by virtue of our default corrupted state, we all sin by virtue of the fact that god put us here.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Travelsong:
If the Bible is primarily concerned with life and death in the eternal spiritual sense, what does it matter if our bodies are bent and broken as long as our souls are created by god as perfect and holy and untainted?

This actually sounds more like gnosticism than historical, biblical Christianity. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe Christian Dogma anymore. I do however know more of it's teachings across the theological spectrum than most, so I am able to play devil's advocate and show why certain assumptions either don't make sense or just plain contradict other assumptions.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Travelsong:
If the Bible is primarily concerned with life and death in the eternal spiritual sense, what does it matter if our bodies are bent and broken as long as our souls are created by god as perfect and holy and untainted?

This actually sounds more like gnosticism than historical, biblical Christianity. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe Christian Dogma anymore. I do however know more of it's teachings across the theological spectrum than most, so I am able to play devil's advocate and show why certain assumptions either don't make sense or just plain contradict other assumptions. </font>[/QUOTE]You just think you know more about what is across the spectrum. You need to read some books by John Newport.

If you read the words of Jesus and who He claimed to be then He is either right or wrong. No gray in that area. Now show us where Jesus was wrong.

Many of the assumptions you profess are the result of your intellectual ignorance about what scripture teaches in light of its historical context. Seems to me for a long time you have let people tell you what to believe and have not been challenged to study the Bible for yourself. You know just enough to be dangerous. It's much like a kid who knows how to start a car but not drive it. You have a little knowledge mixed with some error and call it truth. Your questions are a mixture of truth and assumption on your part. How can anyone deal with such nonsense?

Much of what I read about what you say the Bible teaches is not at all what the Bible teaches. You have taken an enormous number of things out of context and call it truth.

Give us some facts to support your belief.. Anyone can ask loads of questions. Let’s get down to some specific passages of scripture you claim to not believe and show us how you have refuted the Bible.

From what I have read you clearly do not understand the first rule if interpretation of any document–context.

It was but about two years ago that I wrote a man who makes such claims of refuting the Bible on the internet. Eventually what came out was that he had not really challenged himself to study scripture. He had been listening to the ignorance of others. When I confronted him on his ignorance he no longer wanted to dialog anymore. He was content with his belief to not be challenged and remain ignorant.

You cannot look at one who claims to be a Christian and judge Christ on that. You must judge Christ on what he claimed and said.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is because sin against God changes our ontological state to that of spiritual death, and all share this fate because of that fact that all have sinned (not because they have or haven't heard some specific didactic presentation.)

You're still saying that our default sinful state causes our own spiritual death.

How is that our fault? God created us with the same inherent limitations that he desires to condemn us for yes? If we all sin by virtue of our default corrupted state, we all sin by virtue of the fact that god put us here. </font>[/QUOTE]We are held responsible for our personal sins, not simply because we are descendents of Adam. When we sin it is our fault. "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear guilt for the son (Ezek 18:20)". Thankfully, God in Christ provided a way to be reconciled to Himself when we do sin. If He was so terrible as you make Him out to be, He would not humbled Himself as a man and endured such agony on the cross--on our behalf--that neither you or I could possibly fathom. However, if we reject this Love, we reject Life Himself.

 

[Travelsong]

We are held responsible for our personal sins, not simply because we are descendents of Adam. When we sin it is our fault. "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear guilt for the son (Ezek 18:20)". Thankfully, God in Christ provided a way to be reconciled to Himself when we do sin. If He was so terrible as you make Him out to be, He would not humbled Himself as a man and endured such agony on the cross--on our behalf--that neither you or I could possibly fathom. However, if we reject this Love, we reject Life Himself.

All of these sorts of verbose explanations don't get to the crux of the matter.

Are we born with a will and mind which are bent and twisted from the truth, incapable of fixing our condition through our own efforts? yes or no?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
All of these sorts of verbose explanations don't get to the crux of the matter.

Are we born with a will and mind which are bent and twisted from the truth, incapable of fixing our condition through our own efforts? yes or no?

I guess to an extent the answer you will get may depend on whether or not you are addressing, for instance, a Calvnist or Arminian. At the same time it seems like you might be asking that question from the point of view that monergism and Pelagianism are the only live options-ie either only God (man is completely passive) or only man (God's grace isn't necessary). If for instance, you are asking if man is capable of fixing his condition through his own efforts unaided by God's grace than the answer is "no". To assert otherwise would be Pelagian and would deny the effect of sin and the fall and the fact that only in Christ can those effects be overcome. We are incapable of lifting ourselves up by own bootstraps. However, if you are asking if man is, despite the fall, capable of responding to God's grace, in view of the person and work of Christ, and is indeed accountable for that response, I'd anwer "yes".

(Disclaimer: Now, I'm sure the Calvinists here would disagree with me on this, but I believe that such synergism between God's grace and man's response is the consistent biblical teaching and the consistent teaching of the historical church up to the time of the Reformation. But my intention here is not to get into a debate for which I don't have the time.)

If you find such an answer "verbose", then so be it. The truth is such, perhaps, that simplistic answers to complex questions regarding the dynamic interplay between the Divine initiative and the human response probably won't suffice (to say the least!). And suffice it to say, we aren't the first people to wrestle with such questions.

 

[Travelsong]

Yes, that was verbose. But then all of these kinds of explanations must be. Okay then, to the degree that man is incapable of repairing his condition, how is he accountable for that condition? Why should god condemn man for the very state he created man in?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Sorry, I missed this before you edited it:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The sin nature is in the flesh. We inherit it. Paul talks about the flesh being exceedingly sinful, and equates it to being carnal.

So then my soul is good and holy? Why would god want to imbue a corrupt vessel with a pure sentience? </font>[/QUOTE]Who said it is pure and holy. It also has been corrupted. If you read 1Thes.5:23, where Paul says: "I pray God your whole body, soul, and spirit..." we find that man is a tri-partite being mad of body, soul and spirit. Although the words spirit and soul are sometimes used interchangeably, and the word soul can have a more general meaning (The soul that sinneth it shall die--soul referring to the entire person), here are what the terms usually refer to:
The body--you already are acquainted with.
The soul--the seat of man's affection, reasoning, etc. Sometimes called the heart. If we were to call it technical name today, it would be labeled "the brain."
The spirit--that part of man, (which God made different from all the animals), with which we are able to communicate with God. Before salvation the spirit is dead (meaning inoperable. See Eph.2:1--But you were dead in sin.
So both body and soul were corrupted by means of sin. Jesus says the same:
Out of the "heart" comes adultery, murders, covetousnes, evil thoughts...etc. Heart and soul are the same here. Your evil comes from within. It comes from the mind (the soul). It begins with the heart. Again Jesus explained that on the sermon on the mount when he explained murder. Why was one who was angry with his brother a murderer? Because the sin originated in the heart.
Who is responsible for controlling all of the laws that govern the universe (including this physical transmission of a sin nature)? Is this sin nature a broken strand of DNA? Can science perhaps discover and fix it? How am I responsible for being born with a condition that was transmitted to me through absolutely no act of my own? So your soul is corrupt with your body.

If the Bible is primarily concerned with life and death in the eternal spiritual sense, what does it matter if our bodies are bent and broken as long as our souls are created by god as perfect and holy and untainted?

Again this is your mistake. Your soul is corrupted, like your body, and your spirit is dead until it is made live by the Holy Spirit. Only Christ can do that. (Eph.2:1)
DHK

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Yes, that was verbose. But then all of these kinds of explanations must be. Okay then, to the degree that man is incapable of repairing his condition, how is he accountable for that condition? Why should god condemn man for the very state he created man in?

Read the book of Hebrews.