Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

I have no disdain for god. I have no reason to believe that a god could possibly exist as Christian theology presents him. Again, you are more than welcome to walk me through the logic of my objections. I'm more than willing to be persuaded by evidence.

 

This board would be the last place I would look to for finding a fellow agnostic. I would imagine agnostics have their own message board.

You have received more than enough wisdom the last couple of weeks from this board. The only thing I could tell you is...if God is not real, and we are all temporary accidents in an accidental world, I would not be wasting my time typing on a message board, I would be "living it up" with the rest of the world. If there are no repercussions for our actions, our conscience must only be a figment of our imaginations. Why worry about what is wrong? Do whatever...whenever...however. There will be no penalty, right?

 

And as you can see since my deconversion, I have respectfully confined my contributions to one thread. Furthermore, my only desire is to find reconciliation with those I considered "fellow believers". This includes not only the Baptist Board where I've been a casual member for 3 years, but also my parents, friends, our pastor and so on.

Thank you for letting me know where I belong now but I didn't just wake up the other day and say "Hey, I think I'll try agnosticism for a while." No lifetime Christian has that power.

It's just that kind of fatalistic reasoning that much of religion depends on: "If there is no supreme standard by which all men are judged then I might as well return to my animal instincts."

That's one of the first hurdles to get over.

 

What do you mean by "finding reconciliation"?

I'm not telling you where you belong. My point is if you want to "explore" your new found faith (ar lack of), I would want to discuss further with those with the same views.

It's not fatalism, but common sense. Why try to "do the right thing"? This has nothing to do with supreme standard. If our existence boils down to 70 years, you would want to get the most out of those 70 years. If there is no sin, you can do whatever you wish: cheat on your taxes, steal, rape, murder...ANYTHING. This is not animal instinct, but human nature. If this is what you are going to base your life on, don't worry about any repercussions of any actions. Falsify your taxes this year to get more money...do whatever "feels good"...take something from someone if you want it. Your new found twisted views of our existence by default turns man into animals.

 

On the internet it's important because it helps me formulate and articulate my thoughts into a more cohesive argument.

This translates to a better understanding of how to approach my life and those I love. It also has the added benefit of allowing them to follow my thoughts. If there be any evil in me, show me the light.

My wife is a foregone conclusion. I gave myself to her for the rest of my life and I will be hers for as long as forever lasts.

What makes you think I haven't? How is this germane to my being here? Or could it possibly be that I make you nervous? That's what I'm noticing more than anything. People seem to have these blinders that allow them to automatically tune out anything threatening to their belief systems. It's kind of funny when you think about it.

Well if there is no god, then human nature as we percieve it manifestly proves your conclusion wrong now doesn't it?

You start with the a priori assumption that people aren't as "evil" as they can be so there must be a god.

 

Now, explain this to your wife and children with you being the spiritual leader of your family.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Originally posted by Travelsong:


So God can't exist without evil?

Of course God can exist without evil or good. He is not limited by that domain. But we cannot know evil unless there is good.

Why and why? If there were only good there would be no evil. If there were only good how would we recognize it?

So then for them it isn't wrong is it? From the interviews I have seen that is correct until they see another side. It is the same for us when we meet God face to face. We think we are okay until we begin to see ourselves for who we really are.

 

I am one. I came to some conclusions before someone shared their faith with me. At the time I was a physics major in college and noticed as we went through the formulas that there were so many constants. After class one day I was talking with a friend of mine and asked him if he noticed what I did. To him it meant little and then he asked me what it meant to me. I told him it meant to me that something was consistent and constant. I told him I didn't know what else to call that other than God. During this time I also realized that life was more than just being a good student and getting good grades.

Later a student from one of my classes knocked on my door with a friend of his and told me about the gospel. I agreed and responded. It was not much until I began to read the Bible. It was day by day that I began to realize this God I thought about in my physics studies was the same God of the universe and He knew what He was doing and could be trusted. That is when I began to trust Him more and more. I went from a purely intellectual journey to experiential and intellectual. Then later I it became more intellectual because I had already experienced God.

For their to be a decision of substance and lasting it must be reach the mind, will and emotion.

 

So it was necessary for god to create beings to learn the difference between obedience and disobedience by allowing them to be born in a default condemned state of sin, ready to be damned for eternity unless they were fortunate enough to hear and accept the one possible way out? Jesus?

And this would be a bad thing? I don't get it. God can't be happy unless he creates someone to condemn?

The same way we can know ourselves now, except without knowing "evil". We are sentient beings with an intellect capable of discerning our deepest motivations, I highly doubt this capability is derived from knowing evil. Isn't evil chaos and doubt?

And what are we exactly?

And there you reinsert the importance of an emotional response.

As I was saying, Christianity comes complete with an incredibly strong emotional appeal. You are unworthy of any good thing, only deserving of eternal damnation. Any good thing god allows you to experience is only through his infinite benevolence. In fact, the only reason he doesn't smite you right now and send you directly to hell for being born is because he is so loving.

I don't believe it anymore.

If you are judged, you are judged by how well you've done with what was given to you.

 

I already have. Well, my girl isn't really old enough to understand yet(thankfully), but my wife has been aware of this change from the start. I don't hide who I am.

I consider myself fortunate that she at least recognizes the many inherent contradictions of exclusionary religion.

 

Why would you make me nervous? God's Word says you are deceived, not me.

No blinders from me. I enjoy studying people's beliefs. The main difference between us is I do not depend on my own finite knowledge and understanding to determine if and who God is. You can look all around you and know there is a God. Romans 1 tells us that ALL men KNOW instinctively there is a God...including you. You can try talking yourself out of it, but then you would be the "fool" mentioned who says there is no God.

No it doesn't. How? Where would our conscience come from?

I've assumed no such thing. My point that you did not take was that if our existence boiled down to these 70 years, we would not need a conscience to make decisions pertaining to right or wrong...we would just make decisions. Do lions feel bad when they rip apart an elk? No. It's just part of being a lion. If humans are not judged by our actions we would have ne need for a conscience. Next time your daughter does something against your will, you really have no right punishing her. She is just "living". What would give you the right to punish her in telling her what is right or wrong? If God does not exist, there is no right and wrong.

 

Originally posted by Travelsong:

From what I have read I believe you have been listening to the ignorance of men who do not know their Bible and often stretch the story beyond its context. Perhaps if you do ask some missionaries such as friends of mine who will tell you a much different story than often what Americans believe. A friend of mine who was in Ethiopia tells the story of one of the missionaries he knew who felt compelled to go to a particular area. When he arrived at that area he realized that a man had a dream about a man named Jesus and when the missionary told him about Jesus the man had his answer. You do realize that when Jesus spoke the words saying He is the truth and the life he was speaking to people in front of Him. Certainly that is the immediate context. How far that extends to those who have never heard is only speculation. If everything in the Bible were to be taken literally and applied beyond the immediate context, God would be a chicken with feet.

God is not willing that any should perish. If someone goes their own way they will receive the consequences of that wrong. If your child were to continue down a path of wrong he most likely would be taken to jail and committed to an institution. You reasoning makes about as much sense as saying that you wouldn’t be happy to have a child unless you had one in jail.

Quite the opposite of what the Bible teaches. If what you wrote is correct then we wouldn’t need wisdom or counseling. We would be God. To say evil is chaos and doubt is to say demons are not evil. They create chaos among people but have no doubt about who God is. Most likely demons are very organized and know exactly what they are doing. I suspect Hitler was very organized and knew what he was doing. He created chaos among others.

If what you wrote is correct then explain your spirit and soul. I’ll give you an easier one. Explain love. Don’t just tell me about the results and what happens when you feel loved. Tell me what it is.

Finite beings with a soul and spirit.

The emotion is the result of a message reaching the intellect , then the will and finally the emotion. Certainly there are those who respond to an emotional appeal. Often, they are easily manipulated by an idiot. In my years of pastoring and preaching often I would hear is that the message was too filled by reasons for faith and they just wanted to be told what they needed to know at the time. Most often that was told to me by a person who did not study and wanted a simple easy life.

Certainly you have given me quite a picture of what churches you have been in. It seems to me that you have had quite a dose of those who do not study.

Emotional appeal? You really believe such nonsense. Use your brain. To say such a thing is a clear indicator you do not know much about Christianity and have not read your Bible. You are blindly asssuming what Christianity is, without an adequate study of the Bible. You are guilty of the very thing you accuse the emoitonalists of doing. Quit listening to the idiots you have been listening to. Take a look at Jesus. You cannot judge anything by its abusers. You cannot judge a teacher by students who are lazy and whose parents call the university to complain because they feel their adult son is getting too much homework and wants to come home every weekend. When Jesus said to men to come follow Him that was not an emotional appeal but rather a life changing appeal. It required a complete life change. When Paul went from killing Christians that was not just an emotional appeal. He went against the establishment and decided to be on the opposite side of Christ. That was clear decision. Idiots that preach strictly emotional appeals get nothing more than people who will follow blindly. They are often characterized by laziness, shout stomp and spit. They simply keep repeating themselves each week just in a different set of words.

God certainly would not agree with much of what you wrote. Read your Bible and study it to find out what God thinks of his creation. A lot of teaching by ignorant folks claims to be taken from scripture. Oh they may have used the same words but have totally lifted it from its context.

So your view of salvation is works based? How much would one have to do to be saved. It seems to me that you have read little of the Bible and spent a great deal of time listening to ignorance. Your theology is much like vegetable soup–a little of this and a little of that. A little ignorance you have heard, a little truth you may have read or heard , a little of you and a little of the world.

I find it hard to believe you have even cracked open your Bible. You are not trying to understand what scripture teaches. The Bible has so many answers to questions you have asked. You need to get to work.

Find out what the Bible teaches and then come back with some intelligent questions we can discuss. The crooked theology of what you claim as Christinaity is not Christianity. It is pure ignorance of what the Bible teaches in its light of its historical context.

 

You must must forgive me for feeling ushered out the door with a sense of urgency. Three posts ago my being here made absolutely no sense to you.

Here's one of the many rabbit trails that leads to and from "God's ways are higher than our ways."

I innately understand that there is a god, yet I can't know it with my own knowledge. What exactly does this help to explain?

Your a priori assumption is that people aren't as evil as as they can be, therefore god exists.


You say 'If there is no god, might as well live any way I want'. Yet in observation we can see that many people live as if there is no god and they are no more outwardly different than you or I. So if there is no god we can conclude that people are motivated by all different kinds of things.

There are many ontological arguments like this, and I even like some of them.

One such is "How can you explain the range of human experience given the seeming indifference of nature?"

Fact is, they really don't prove anything, and certainly don't point to the Christian god.

Sure there is. We learn from very early on through punishment and reward what kind of behaviour is expected of us. That becomes the basis of our convictions. Talk to a devout Muslim sometime and you'll see they are just as convinced as you are.

 

Huh? When did we start using our intellect to confirm our deepest held convictions through anectdotal evidence?

So then Jesus isn't the only way for those who haven't heard of him? Do we agree that Timothy 2:5 is unreasonable?

Translation: "His ways are higher than our ways." The question never gets answered.

What?

Then why did he allow evil knowing that many would perish. How can you say he is not willing?

I don't draw the same fatalistic conclusions you do. I used to of course. My dad just put it to me this way the other night: "After everything I've believed for my whole Christian walk, for me to turn around and deny it all now I might as well blow my brains out."


Don't take this personally but I just can't respond to the rest of this post. There's no discernable rationale behind any of these appeals to emotion and weak ontological arguments.

You stressed the intellect earlier. Explain logically how an omnibenevolent, eternal, perfect being brings people into the word in a default state of damnation.

Also, explain where this sin nature has it's origin. The flesh or the soul?

 

You don't really believe this do you?
Sinless? No evil? No wickedness, sin, iniquity, evil abounds in you whatsoever? Should I ask your wife about this? Would she agree?

What about the sin of lying? And: gluttony, pride, arrogance, deceit, covetousness, greed, anger, (both an angry countenance, and angry words), lust, evil thoughts, etc.
Are you sure I can't ask your wife if there is no wickedness in you?

Rom.3:23--"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Doesn't all include you? Or, do you put yourself in the same class as Christ, who alone is God?

1 John 1:8--If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10--If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

God's Word is a higher standard than your word.
Are you as holy as God is holy?

If you are truthful about this, you will admit that you don't even measure up to your own standard, much less the standards the standard that God has set in his Word. That is precisely why we are sinners in need of a Saviour. We can't do it on our own. We will fail. We do need a Saviour. We are not perfect. There is evil found in you, and therefore you are condemned.

But Christ died for that evil that resides in you. He paid the penalty for that sin, and not for yours only but for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:1,2)

I think, by reading through this thread, one of the great problems that leave you puzzled is the trouble in believing Titus 2:11

Titus 2:11--"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
--I myself don't completely understand this verse, but I believe it by faith as one of the promises of God's Word--that he gives all on this planet the chance to receive Christ as Saviour. The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. That means precisely what it says. All men will have a chance to experience that grace of God which will bring them salvation. It is not my business to worry about the how, when, where. That is in God's hand. I am to do what God wants me to do--be faithful to the end. Leave the rest to a loving and merciful God. That is all that God requires. He is a God of love, not of wrath. He loves you, and all that exist on this earth. He demonstrated that love by dying for us even though we were sinners deserving of his wrath and condemnation.
Evil: yes, that is what abides in us all. An evil man cannot stand before a holy God.

If you were to stand before God right now and he were to ask you: Why should I let you into my Heaven, what would you answer?
DHK

 

When I said that, I was referring specifically to the manner in which I've conducted myself on this board, in my thought processes, and in my dealings with others during this time of transition.

I have already in this thread acknowledged that I am fallible. I just don't see this as evidence of a god who is waiting to kill me forever and ever. Please address the many issues I've raised on that very subject.

 

This is from your profile: Short personal statement of faith : Jesus is my Lord. If you believed this at some point, I believe God will not be "waiting to kill you forever".

 

Reminds me of my brother-in-law: "It's better to have fire insurance."

 

I did, as I explained Titus 2:11 to you.

 

Once you remove the necessity of Jesus and knowledge of the historical events surrounding his life, death and resurrection by saying "everyone gets a chance", you acknowledge there are other paths. The significance of such an assertion can't be ignored.