Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

[Aaron]

In reference to this thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/10/5608.html

Well, that was a surprise to say the least.

Travelsong said:
One thing I've come to understand is that Christianity made me hate myself. I mean really, really hate myself.

And how else is one to feel when truly face to face with a righteous God? I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42:5-6.

That is my experience. The more I learn of Christ, the more beautiful and lovely He is, and the more abhorent I become. This is the experience of everyone who truly learns of Christ. It seems you have the first part down. Now you just need the proper response. Repentance from dead works, i.e., your own works of righteousness (which you've seen aren't really lovely or worthy of any praise), and faith toward Christ.

BTW, thank you for the kind words.

[ October 25, 2005, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[Travelsong]

I've learned from experience that this thinking is psychologically damaging.

The more you focus on your inadequacies, imperfections, shortcomings, self destructive desires, the more they become problems for you.

I am a guy doing the best I can. I am not perfect, but I am not evil. I will be the best father, husband, son, brother and citizen I can be without living in fear of some angry tyrant who will torture me for all eternity just to demonstrate his infinite benevolence.

I'm the same guy, subtract the endless self chastisement.

 

[TexasSky]

Travelsong,

Christianity isn't about self chastisement. It is about understanding that only with Christ can anyone reach their potential in terms of "best you can be."

It is about not struggling to be better "alone", and having an almighty God help you do the impossible.

No wonder you are tired and weary. Struggling to be God-like without God ~is~ impossible, depressing, self-defeating. Only Christ within you can give you the peace and joy and contentment that so many men seek.

You were approaching the equation incorrectly. Instead of "surrender to Christ, then seek to be like Christ," you were "seeking to be like Christ while rejecting Christ." That is the equivalent of saying, "Instead of baking the cake, and then mixing the ingredients, I'll bake the ingredients and then mix them."

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Moderators: While this is an important topic, I need to ask why a person that has declared themselves to be agnostic is being allowed to post freely in a "Baptist" forum?

There are several other places that this thread could be placed.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by USN2Pulpit:
Moderators: While this is an important topic, I need to ask why a person that has declared themselves to be agnostic is being allowed to post freely in a "Baptist" forum?

There are several other places that this thread could be placed.

Good point. I will move this thread to the "Other Denominations Forum" for now.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
I've learned from experience that this thinking is psychologically damaging.

The more you focus on your inadequacies, imperfections, shortcomings, self destructive desires, the more they become problems for you.

I am a guy doing the best I can. I am not perfect, but I am not evil. I will be the best father, husband, son, brother and citizen I can be without living in fear of some angry tyrant who will torture me for all eternity just to demonstrate his infinite benevolence.

I'm the same guy, subtract the endless self chastisement.

And when you are stripped of all your imperfections, shortcomings, etc., etc., you will have no other place to turn but to God.

There is a God-sized vaccuum within the heart of every man that no one but God himself can fill. One can never find peace in this world until he allows the God of all peace and comfort to fill that void.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[Charles Meadows]

The more you focus on your inadequacies, imperfections, shortcomings, self destructive desires, the more they become problems for you.

True enough - but Christianity is ot about that.

The concept that all people are wretched and evil is a bit a of a "reductio ad absurdum". John Calvin took note of this.

The point is that we're all incomplete without God. Yes we all have desires to do good and selfless things. But no human action or thought is ever truly altruistic - there is always some degree of selfish motivation, however small.

None of us will ever be completely self-satisfied or self-sufficient. And no amount of Oprah-style positivity or self-uplifting can do it. Only a relationship with God (via Christ) can do this.

Do you mean (by posting this thread) that you have abandoned faith in Christ? Or are you simply moving away from an evangelical post-reformation understanding?

 

[Travelsong]

Charles:

Yes, I have abandoned faith in Christ.

You are saying that perfection is an impossibility, even with god.

If there is no such thing as altruism (a perfectly selfless act), then I have no reason to feel the need to try and perform such an act.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Yes, I have abandoned faith in Christ.

Obviously quite concerning.

What led you to this point?

I understand the issues of self-deprecation. This is not a new criticism of evangelical Christianity. But as a Christian did you not find fulfilment in Christ?

Does your change of mind reflect a desire for more personal validation? Or perhaps a realization that you shouldn't need to be validated?

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
What led you to this point?

My thoughts.

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I understand the issues of self-deprecation. This is not a new criticism of evangelical Christianity. But as a Christian did you not find fulfilment in Christ?

I often felt comfort in the notion of a happy afterlife without struggle, only peace.

I was also equally fearful of god's wrath because it is after all, completely random.

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Does your change of mind reflect a desire for more personal validation? Or perhaps a realization that you shouldn't need to be validated?

Validation is meaningless. I can only be what I am. I can't believe what I consider to be unreasonable.

 

[Chemnitz]

You are saying that perfection is an impossibility, even with god.

While it is true that we will always fail to attain perfection, it is not an impossiblity with God.

Until the resurrection and the return of Christ all Christians will be at the same time a sinner and a perfect saint.

While I take note of my in adequacies, I do so with the intent of improving and the realization I will never be perfect. Knowing that, I rejoice that I do not have to be perfect because Christ was perfect for me. I thank God everyday that I do not have to earn salvation through perfection because I couldn't do it and would just give up. I would find it all too easy to sit back and say it doesn't matter anyways.

 

[TexasSky]

Charles,

I have to step in here, and at the risk of offending, I have to state - - no one who ever knew Christ could turn around and deny Him.

Travelsong has obviously had a church experience, but that is NOT the same as having BEEN a Christian.

 

[gb93433]

Mt. 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

If the truth were known I think we would be surprised at how many church leaders will be found in hell. When I look at scripture and see how the Spirit works I often wonder about some I see who are good at arguing and fighting but without love. Scripture declares how others will know we are one of His. If one is not growing in love for others I would even question their salvation experience.

One can go to church, tell people about Christ, read the Bible, put large tokens in the offering plate and still not know Him.

 

[bapmom]

Travelsong,

God's wrath is not completely random.

It was clearly and succinctly written out in many places in the Bible. The wrath of God is only reserved for those who have rejected Christ. God is not up there waiting for you to mess up so He can squish you.

Let me add, the "christianity" which you have described yourself as being in is a very VERY Catholic sounding religiousness. You did not ever know the God of the Bible if your description of your viewpoint is accurate.

 

[TexasSky]

GB,

AMEN.

My daughter and I have found that asking someone about what she calls their "wow moment" can be a real eye opener.

By that we mean that for every Christian there is a moment, a time, when they surrendered their life to Christ. They start out with just a mustard seed of faith that God is real, but the moment they surrender their life to Christ they are no longer going on blind faith - they KNOW Christ. It is revelationary to them.

Ask people for their testimony and some will tell you about all their great church work, some will speak of being raised in a church, many will speak of the moment they were Baptized. Most Christians though, will include, in whatever else they share, that "wow moment," when they KNEW, as surely as a man or woman knows another man or woman is standing beside them, that Jesus Christ IS real, and He IS the Son of Almighty God. That "wow moment" is NOT when you go under that water in the Baptistry. It isn't when you shake the preacher's hand and say, "I want to make this public." That "wow moment" is when you surrender your life to Christ.

 

[donnA]

Moderators: While this is an important topic, I need to ask why a person that has declared themselves to be agnostic is being allowed to post freely in a "Baptist" forum?

There are several other places that this thread could be placed.

Good point. I will move this thread to the "Other Denominations Forum" for now.

ag·nos·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

adj.
Relating to or being an agnostic.
Doubtful or noncommittal

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=agnostic

Though I do not believe a person can loose their salvation, I have to wonder why someone who isn't sure God exsists is even on a christians only board.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
I've learned from experience that this thinking is psychologically damaging.

The more you focus on your inadequacies, imperfections, shortcomings, self destructive desires, the more they become problems for you.

I am a guy doing the best I can. I am not perfect, but I am not evil. I will be the best father, husband, son, brother and citizen I can be without living in fear of some angry tyrant who will torture me for all eternity just to demonstrate his infinite benevolence.

I'm the same guy, subtract the endless self chastisement.

It sounds to me like you have missed the grace of God altogether. Why would you believe that God was going to torment you for all eternity if His Son already paid the price for your sins? Your inadequacies, imperfections and shortcomings are covered by the blood if you believe on Him. No chastisement for a believer will be endless.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Aaron:
And how else is one to feel when truly face to face with a righteous God?

We're to love ourselves, and each other, as God loves us. In fact, I felt worthless until I came to Christ.

If we're sending the message that we're supposed to feel worthless when we come to Christ, we're not sending the message of the NT. If we have done this with anyone, then we have failed on our mission.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
And how else is one to feel when truly face to face with a righteous God?

We're to love ourselves, and each other, as God loves us. In fact, I felt worthless until I came to Christ.

If we're sending the message that we're supposed to feel worthless when we come to Christ, we're not sending the message of the NT. If we have done this with anyone, then we have failed on our mission. </font>[/QUOTE]2 Timothy 3:1-2
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

we're supposed to love others as we love ourselves, not the other way around.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
we're supposed to love others as we love ourselves, not the other way around.

Well, unless we love ourselves, we can't love our neighbors, can we.

The problem is that some will presume to love themselves before they love their neighbors (not scriptural), or love themselves more than they love their neighbors (not scriptural) or have no love for themselves and then love their neighbors (not scriptural).