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Rethinking our Terminology
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
I agree with you too, Karen.
By the way, I always ask for a response in some way. Asking the person to pray and talk to God about it. This most often turns into my helping them talk to God. Never have I ever heard any "magical prayer that saves" referenced except for by those who are being sarcastic about it.
By the way, I always ask for a response in some way. Asking the person to pray and talk to God about it. This most often turns into my helping them talk to God. Never have I ever heard any "magical prayer that saves" referenced except for by those who are being sarcastic about it.
I think the most important thing to remember is that Jesus invited people to follow Him in a number of ways - not according to a rigid formula.
Furthermore, God looks on the heart and knows our intent. The words and actions themselves are not so important.
And last, but by no means least, the evidence for a true "salvation experience" is that the life of a believer is transformed from the inside out. The character of true followers of Jesus will be gradually redeemed so that they can operate in the full power of the Spirit with their lives characterized by transforming holiness. (Of course we don't emphasize actually following Jesus once we join a church, nor teach Christians how to actually be obedient to Christ by following His example, so our churches have very little influence and the lives of individual Christians aren't much different than those who don't know Christ -- but the message and power of the gospel is still true, even if we ignore it.)
Furthermore, God looks on the heart and knows our intent. The words and actions themselves are not so important.
And last, but by no means least, the evidence for a true "salvation experience" is that the life of a believer is transformed from the inside out. The character of true followers of Jesus will be gradually redeemed so that they can operate in the full power of the Spirit with their lives characterized by transforming holiness. (Of course we don't emphasize actually following Jesus once we join a church, nor teach Christians how to actually be obedient to Christ by following His example, so our churches have very little influence and the lives of individual Christians aren't much different than those who don't know Christ -- but the message and power of the gospel is still true, even if we ignore it.)
All about Grace
New Member
I agree that our terminology must be continually examined and explained. But I am confident that my reasoning for doing so is not the same reason as the original poster.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
I absolutely agree. Jesus never asked anyone to believe on Him, He never used the word grace, and He never asked anyone to pray a certain prayer to be saved. He asked them to follow Him. He told them "Ye must be born again." He told them to remove other things in their lives which got in the way. (Go and sell all that you have and give it to the poor.)
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That verse is one of the most misused in Scripture. Jesus Christ is speaking to the Churches, not to the individual. </font>[/QUOTE]Does Jesus ever speak to a group? How would an entire church respond to this? Ultimately, he always speaks to an individual. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that Salvation is an individual transaction between man and God. However, during His tenure on earth Jesus Christ most frequently spoke to groups. That being said, it does not alter the fact that the passage of Scripture in question is misused.
This has been an interesting thread. Certainly, many have been truly converted when responding to an invitation, being led through the Roman Road and led to pray the "sinner's prayer". However, the key was always the convicting & drawing power of the Holy Spirit and God's miraculous regeneration thereby quickening the dead sinner. The problem comes when we as witnesses try to force a decision and grant assurance apart from God's power. I'm sure that is always done out of good intentions but many of use were trained to push for a decision almost like a salesman is trained to "close the deal". This is certainly not scriptural. We must just be faithful to present the Gospel and rely on the Holy Spirit to bring conversion according to his time.
saturneptune
New Member
It could be argued that invitations in Baptist churches have become rigid, and ceremonial, maybe even to the extent of wanting a decision now. But consider the alternative. Growing up in a Presbyterian church (not all bad), never having an invitation. The salvation experience for the most part becomes a "becoming aware of the knowledge of Jesus Christ" over time, going to Communicant's class, and joining the church.
Tom Butler
New Member
Karen said:
bapmom said:
Baptist Believer said:
All About Grace said:
GLC said:
Tom B.
Karen, the Lord saved me during an invitation, as well. The pastor did not ask me to pray, he asked me if I repented of my sins and trusted Christ. When I said yes, he stopped.
bapmom said:
All you have to do is watch "Christian" TV and you'll hear it done all the time. Pray this prayer after me. Okay, you're saved. When I hear it done like that, bothers the dickens out of me. We have no authority to give them that kind of assurance. The sarcasm may have been out of line, but my concern is real, nonetheless, that some folks will go to hell with the assurance that they won't.
Baptist Believer said:
Agree wholeheartedly, and that's why we can't offer assurance immediately to a new convert until we see that evidence.
All About Grace said:
Now you've gotten my curiosity up. Would you share your reason for examining our terminology?
GLC said:
Amen, Gary. My biggest problem in witnessing is to know when to shut up and wait upon the Holy Spirit to do His work.
Tom B.
saturneptune
New Member
In the local church I attend, there is no connection between an invitation and convincing someone they are saved. It is an open time for anything that God is doing in a person's life, whether it be sanctification in a Christian's life, or salvation to the lost person. I do not recall an invitation where anyone was asked a series of questions, and told to pray a prayer in my 28 or so years here. I have never heard a pastor say one had to walk to the front to experience regeneration. After growing up with no invitation and a lack of even focusing on what a true relationship with Jesus Christ means, I find the invitation refreshing, at least as imperfect as man is at thinking things up, its better than answering a bunch of questions in front of a church. I fail to see the evidence of a hard sell, pressing for a commitment to Christ, except maybe on a TV show. The invitations I have seen are honest, done in a Godly manner. And who are we, as the vessels God uses to deliver the Gospel, to presume to know when and how the Holy Spirit is going to work in a certain person, so we as humans in our infinite "wisdom", know when to "shut up." This is not a laboratory experiment. This is the work of God, the Holy Spirit, and what manner, direction, or way it takes place is up to God, and I doubt any theory we think up about it as humans will enhance that process.
Saturn: I understand your points, especially given your history in a Church that did not specifically invite folks to Christ. However, for those of us who have seen lots of manipulating tactics during invitations coupled with the quick counseling of those who responded, the process is concerning. This is especially true when the counseling seeks to push for a decision so that the person can be immediately presented to the Church. I have just become a little concerned by the process of soft music, getting folks to bow their heads and close their eyes (no one looking around), asking them to raise their hands in response to any one of a series of questions and then getting them to walk to the front of the Church. I'm just afraid these kind of tactics tend to get out in front of God's Spirit. I really don't have a problem with a closing invitation as long as it is properly handled and as long as we don't seek to force a decision from those who respond. Personally, I would rather see the Pastor preach the gospel and close the service by passionately inviting folks to Christ and by telling them that he and/or others will be available at a certain place after the service to speak with anyone who needs help. This would allow proper time to speak to those needing help without the congregation standing around singing while folks are being counseled.
Tom Butler
New Member
Joel Thorn runs a blog called "Words of Grace." He has posted a series titled "Reforming Evanglism." It's worth reading all six parts. It deals with the subject we've been discussing here.
http://www.joethorn.net/?p=152
Tom B
http://www.joethorn.net/?p=152
Tom B
As to the NT altar and the "altar call", it is metaphorical language for the altar of Calvary.
I once heard a preacher say that the crown of thorns made by the Roman soldiers proved that the tree from which the cross was taken was an acacia tree (AV - shittim wood), infamous for it's thorny branches.
http://www.pbase.com/kiwilassee/image/28241501
NKJV Exodus 27:1 "You shall make an altar of acacia wood, five cubits long and five cubits wide -- the altar shall be square -- and its height shall be three cubits.
HankD
I once heard a preacher say that the crown of thorns made by the Roman soldiers proved that the tree from which the cross was taken was an acacia tree (AV - shittim wood), infamous for it's thorny branches.
http://www.pbase.com/kiwilassee/image/28241501
NKJV Exodus 27:1 "You shall make an altar of acacia wood, five cubits long and five cubits wide -- the altar shall be square -- and its height shall be three cubits.
HankD
Bartimaeus
New Member
It becomes real easy to terminate when you call it pregnacy. It is not so easy when a woman is "with child"
Thanks ----Bart
.....pray hard, and squeeze the trigger gently.
Thanks ----Bart
.....pray hard, and squeeze the trigger gently.
Tom Butler
New Member
HankD said:
Besides, why should we come to it?
The best research I've seen says altar calls were unheard of until the mid-19th century, perfected by Charles Finney. So even if the interpretation is correct, it's still of recent vintage--about 1800 years after the apostolic age.
At best, Baptists and everybody else borrowed such methods from Finney, who, incidentally denied many of the historic Christian doctrines.
I repeat my point: We should measure what we preach, our terminology, and our practices against the Scriptures.
Tom B.
Oh, I see, the cross is the altar on which the Lamb of God was sacrificed. Nice metaphor. I've never heard any preacher explain that before.
Besides, why should we come to it?
The best research I've seen says altar calls were unheard of until the mid-19th century, perfected by Charles Finney. So even if the interpretation is correct, it's still of recent vintage--about 1800 years after the apostolic age.
At best, Baptists and everybody else borrowed such methods from Finney, who, incidentally denied many of the historic Christian doctrines.
I repeat my point: We should measure what we preach, our terminology, and our practices against the Scriptures.
Tom B.
saturneptune
New Member
Let's see if I have got this straight. A lot of people believe (which I tend to agree) that the Baptist church has existed from the time of Acts and the apostles. So for 1800+ years, the Baptist church had some unknown method of Christians making public their relationship with Jesus Christ other than the altar, or being talked into the altar. Then, around 1800 or so, this Finney person is so influential, that all the Baptist churches take 1800 years of unknown tradition (not the altar), and start an altar call which is nothing more than a sales pitch that has lasted 200+ years. My, that guy must have had some charisma. I can't even influence two or three people at work, and this guy influenced millions, in the wrong direction yet.
Actually, in Acts 2:40-43, there are 3000 people saved and baptized from Peter's sermon. It does not say they went to an altar, then again it doesn't say they didn't.
So, without any evidence that an "altar call" is unscriptural, all I have to go by is the local church that I try to serve in. The local church is the foundation of my worship experience in Jesus Christ. One can only conclude that absent any evidence to the contrary from the Bible, a case is being made here for a "universal church", maybe with that secret pre-Finney method that has been lost through the ages.
Actually, in Acts 2:40-43, there are 3000 people saved and baptized from Peter's sermon. It does not say they went to an altar, then again it doesn't say they didn't.
So, without any evidence that an "altar call" is unscriptural, all I have to go by is the local church that I try to serve in. The local church is the foundation of my worship experience in Jesus Christ. One can only conclude that absent any evidence to the contrary from the Bible, a case is being made here for a "universal church", maybe with that secret pre-Finney method that has been lost through the ages.
Tom Butler
New Member
Hey Saturn,
Okay, let's go through your post step-by-step
I'm not making any case for a "universal church." Remember my Landmark tendencies? And there was no secret pre-Finney method lost throughthe ages. Again, the method of public declaration of allegiance to Christ was, and is, baptism.
It just occurred to me that I may be spending entirely too much time with my answer, because you may just be pulling my leg. I'm suspicious now--are you really just yanking my chain? Are you sitting there now, yukking it up, saying, "I got him stirred up, didn't I?"
Your brother in Christ,
Tom B.
Okay, let's go through your post step-by-step
I'm a modified Landmarker, so I do hold that a New Testament church has existed since apostolic times, not always know by the name Baptist. I recognize that it's difficult to prove succession, and that's not what we're discussing here anyway.
Any church of any stripe, yep that's what I'm saying. But it wasn't an unknown method. The public declaration of one's salvation was one's baptism.
Finney was a Presbyterian, by the way, but was not Reformed in any way. And he was tremendously influential. His revivals drew large crowds and many decisions. Google him and you'll see. He perfected the emotional invitation, walking the aisle, the "anxious seat," and other things, which attracted much attention and much copying by Baptists and other denominations. At the end of his life, Finney admitted that he could not be sure that any of his "converts" were ever truly saved.
They didn't go to an altar. They were out in the street. And saying the Acts account doesn't say they didn't have an altar call is called arguing from silence. It might carry more weight if Peter, Paul or Stephen had given an invitation after their sermons, and we might infer such. But they didn't.
I didn't say it was unscriptural, I said it was unheard of before the mid-1850s. If we look for a scriptural exampleto guide us, we won't find it.
This sounds like you're invoking the Normative Principle-that is, if the scripture doesn't preclude it, we can do it. The scripture doesn't say not to do altar calls, so it's okay.
I'm not making any case for a "universal church." Remember my Landmark tendencies? And there was no secret pre-Finney method lost throughthe ages. Again, the method of public declaration of allegiance to Christ was, and is, baptism.
It just occurred to me that I may be spending entirely too much time with my answer, because you may just be pulling my leg. I'm suspicious now--are you really just yanking my chain? Are you sitting there now, yukking it up, saying, "I got him stirred up, didn't I?"
Your brother in Christ,
Tom B.
saturneptune
New Member
Tom, you are ok
My take on the 'damage', or at least the confusion resulting from bad terminology is perhaps best illustrated by "the invitation". I had a quasi- humerous illustration I did years ago that shows where we can sometimes wind up. It went something like this, although I am trying to recreate it after 30+ years, without being able to lay my hand on it at this time:
"In just a moment we are going to have a time of inviting you to make a commitment. If you would like to make that committment, we are going to give you a chance to make your decision for Christ, to dedicate your life to him. God wants you to make things right with Him, and we want to give you an opportunity to do that- Don't put it off any longer, right now is your opportunity, this morning hour. God has a wonderful plan for your life, and this morning, if you'll just accept that payment- it's so simple, if you want to invite Christ into your life, that's all you have to do- right where you sit- you can have it, if you'll just accept the payment, and we want to pray for you, so if you'll just bow your heads, and say yes, pray for me, right now, just lift your hand, and Yes!- I see that hand, and that one, yes and that one, we'll wait just a minute longer for you, we want to give you every opportunity, and we want you to know if you have accepted that payment and made that decision, as we stand, we want you to know that we are praying for you, and we would like to give you some literature, so I'm going to ask you to come down to the front where someone will talk with you and pray through with you right now, from all over the building, come on down- don't worry, your friends will wait for you,- from the balcony, yes, people are coming who want to ask Christ into their heart, pray the sinner's prayer, and make him Lord, and you can, too, make Him Lord of your life, if you'll just repent of your sins, and turn from them, and confess Him publicly, because everybody the Lord called, He called publicly, committing your life to him, by putting Him on the throne of your life, and kicking yourself off, 'cause God can do it better than we ever could- just let go and let God- Christ is knocking at the door of your heart and said if any man hears My voice and opens the door I will come in so make your commitment to him today, right now - He doesn't promise tomorrow- if you'll just take that first step, God will do the rest, turning away from your past and getting a new hope and a new future while we sing with the choir, {Unsaid, is that there will be 23 non-stop verses [except for six verses where everyone has every head bowed and every eye closed and no one (is supposed to be) looking around while the organ plays, because we don't want to NOT give someone 'an opportunity' (For what, I ain't got figured out yet.)]} our 'invitation' hymn, "Just As I Am", come on right now, won't you come?
And my response is, "FOR WHAT?"
Despite all the platitudes, and 'Spiritual sounding words', NOT ONE BIBLICAL PHRASE is actually in that invitation. There is no gospel in that 'gospel invitation', the closest possible thing being that a 'payment' was made and a couple of references to Christ and/or God. There was not one word spoken about the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, the atonement, or the blood, no mention of 'Savior' in all of that. There is no mention of faith in Jesus Christ, or believing in Him to receive the gift of salvation. In short, it is nothing more than 'sanctimonious sounding' BS which has danced around the gospel message in a manner that would do 'Twinkletoes' proud, and tiptoed around those dreaded words 'believe' and/or 'faith' like Tiny Tim 'through the tulip patch', because we don't want to make it sound too easy. And I would suggest that most of us fall into one or more of the traps very easily, for I know I was there years ago. And I'm a litle slower than some, for I managed to dump one less than satisfactory approach "The Four Spiritual Laws(c)" for one only marginally better. So here, anyway, I have some idea of whence I speak.
"In just a moment we are going to have a time of inviting you to make a commitment. If you would like to make that committment, we are going to give you a chance to make your decision for Christ, to dedicate your life to him. God wants you to make things right with Him, and we want to give you an opportunity to do that- Don't put it off any longer, right now is your opportunity, this morning hour. God has a wonderful plan for your life, and this morning, if you'll just accept that payment- it's so simple, if you want to invite Christ into your life, that's all you have to do- right where you sit- you can have it, if you'll just accept the payment, and we want to pray for you, so if you'll just bow your heads, and say yes, pray for me, right now, just lift your hand, and Yes!- I see that hand, and that one, yes and that one, we'll wait just a minute longer for you, we want to give you every opportunity, and we want you to know if you have accepted that payment and made that decision, as we stand, we want you to know that we are praying for you, and we would like to give you some literature, so I'm going to ask you to come down to the front where someone will talk with you and pray through with you right now, from all over the building, come on down- don't worry, your friends will wait for you,- from the balcony, yes, people are coming who want to ask Christ into their heart, pray the sinner's prayer, and make him Lord, and you can, too, make Him Lord of your life, if you'll just repent of your sins, and turn from them, and confess Him publicly, because everybody the Lord called, He called publicly, committing your life to him, by putting Him on the throne of your life, and kicking yourself off, 'cause God can do it better than we ever could- just let go and let God- Christ is knocking at the door of your heart and said if any man hears My voice and opens the door I will come in so make your commitment to him today, right now - He doesn't promise tomorrow- if you'll just take that first step, God will do the rest, turning away from your past and getting a new hope and a new future while we sing with the choir, {Unsaid, is that there will be 23 non-stop verses [except for six verses where everyone has every head bowed and every eye closed and no one (is supposed to be) looking around while the organ plays, because we don't want to NOT give someone 'an opportunity' (For what, I ain't got figured out yet.)]} our 'invitation' hymn, "Just As I Am", come on right now, won't you come?
And my response is, "FOR WHAT?"
Despite all the platitudes, and 'Spiritual sounding words', NOT ONE BIBLICAL PHRASE is actually in that invitation. There is no gospel in that 'gospel invitation', the closest possible thing being that a 'payment' was made and a couple of references to Christ and/or God. There was not one word spoken about the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, the atonement, or the blood, no mention of 'Savior' in all of that. There is no mention of faith in Jesus Christ, or believing in Him to receive the gift of salvation. In short, it is nothing more than 'sanctimonious sounding' BS which has danced around the gospel message in a manner that would do 'Twinkletoes' proud, and tiptoed around those dreaded words 'believe' and/or 'faith' like Tiny Tim 'through the tulip patch', because we don't want to make it sound too easy. And I would suggest that most of us fall into one or more of the traps very easily, for I know I was there years ago. And I'm a litle slower than some, for I managed to dump one less than satisfactory approach "The Four Spiritual Laws(c)" for one only marginally better. So here, anyway, I have some idea of whence I speak.