Rethinking our Terminology

[EdSutton]

I previously posed a question, actually on two different threads, that with two word changes (I inserted my own name.) has a direct answer in Scripture. Only one person, Tom B., came close to that Biblical answer, although bapmom said about the same thing in her last sentence. However, with all due respect, bapmom had made a complete lap around the ballpark before she got there. The question I posed was "What must Ed Sutton do to be saved?" If you insert "I" for my name, Ed Sutton, you have the exact question the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas. They answered a very straightforward response: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved..." How much clearer could it be? How much simpler could God make it? John the Baptizer said it. (Jo. 3:36) Jesus said it. (Jo. 6:47) It is not a difficult question to answer from Scripture. It only becomes difficult when we make it difficult. Over 200 times the NT uses one of the words of believe, belief, faith, or trust in relation to waht is involved with salvation. John, in his gospel, uses 'believe' 99 times. His gospel is the only book said to have been written for the specific purpose that '...believing, you might have life.'
IMO, we have almost cringed in fear from the supposed question of: "Are you telling me that all I have to do is believe?" My answer, and I think it is Scriptural is, "No! That is not what I am saying. What I'm saying is, 'All you CAN do is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!'" G'nite all. Sorry for the long post.
In His grace,
Ed

 

[Tom Butler]

Oooh, Bro. Ed, this is uncanny. Since I was a young boy, seems to me I've heard that invitation just as you gave it, verbatim, hundeds of times.

I'm sorry, you've ruined me. I'll hever be able to hear an invitation like that again without having to stifle a laugh.

Tom B.

 

[Ed Edwards]

EdSutton: //IMO, we have almost cringed in fear from the supposed question of: "Are you telling me that all I have to do is believe?" My answer, and I think it is Scriptural is, "No! That is not what I am saying. What I'm saying is, 'All you CAN do is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!'" //

I agree fully!

EdSutton: //All you CAN do is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!//

Amen, Brother EdSutton -- Preach it!

 

[Ron Arndt]

EdSutton

The bible explicitly states over 100 times we are saved BY FAITH in God. And that means trusting in Jesus Christ. John 3:16 is a simple example. But this faith ALSO means turning from self or repenting and turning to and trusting in the gospel God offers us. The gospel IS the power of God UNTO salvation.Romans 1:16

It is not what we DO that saves us, but how we respond to God THROUGH the gospel. When we turn to God and believe the gospel of Christ God forgives us and creates us ANEW. We become a new creation IN HIM. That is why we are saved by GRACE and not of works, so THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST.Eph 2:8 Romans 3:26-27

 

[HankD]

Oh, I see, the cross is the altar on which the Lamb of God was sacrificed. Nice metaphor. I've never heard any preacher explain that before.
Besides, why should we come to it?

I agree with your premise brother Tom, the "altar" should have been explained as the place of death and the shedding of the blood of the Lamb of God in the message along with the other essentials of the Gospel, His burial and resurrection as well.

There is the metaphorical "altar" of the cross (outside the camp) in the Scripture however:

Hebrews 13
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

BTW I agree with the basic premise that we do need to rethink the terminology of what is sometimes called our "churchianity".

HankD

 

[Ron Arndt]

Altar, smalltar.The gospel was never meant to be scholastically dissected and researched for a person to be saved, but merely told IN SIMPLE TERMS. If one turns from sin and to God and BELIEVES the gospel they ARE saved period. That is the POWER of the gospel and the wonder of the grace of God. Romans 1:16 Eph 2:8.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
EdSutton

The bible explicitly states over 100 times we are saved BY FAITH in God. And that means trusting in Jesus Christ. John 3:16 is a simple example. But this faith ALSO means turning from self or repenting and turning to and trusting in the gospel God offers us. The gospel IS the power of God UNTO salvation.Romans 1:16

It is not what we DO that saves us, but how we respond to God THROUGH the gospel. When we turn to God and believe the gospel of Christ God forgives us and creates us ANEW. We become a new creation IN HIM. That is why we are saved by GRACE and not of works, so THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST.Eph 2:8 Romans 3:26-27

Then why did Jesus say "Come and follow me?" He asked some, like the rich ruler, to DO SOMETHING. In his case it was sell all yopu have and give it to the poor.

 

[Ron Arndt]

StraightandNarrow

When we respond to the gospel message of Christ we do come and follow Jesus. Because when we believe on the Lord for our salvation, the Holy Spirit makes us alive in Christ through his power and so we have a desire to now follow after Christ and learn of his way. We cannot follow Christ until we first say to the Lord, Lord I believe.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Why did Jesus never say come and believe? Belief is shown by responding to His call. True belief always results in action.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

"Sell all you have" = "Repent."

"Come follow Me" = "Believe." (Always in that order; repentance, turning from; faith, turning to.) It is the same message in every passage, though expressed according to the situation.

Re "saved by faith" 100 times - sorry, I can't find a single such reference. To the contrary, I can find many which state that we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. If I am saved by my faith, then if I quit believing, I am lost. If I am saved by grace when I believe, then He is honor-bound to keep that which He has purchased. He may chastise me freely, for I am His; but for Him to cast away one who has ceased to believe in a difficult moment would mean all were forever lost.

Yes, this is something of a technical, linguistic issue, but there is a deep point in it. Some of the most important words in any language are the prepositions.

Many things this side of that moment are "by faith" according to Scripture - sanctified, justified, living, even dying - but what God does He does well, without mixture of human ability, even "foreseen faith."

Wishing you His best - Bro. Charles Blair - Rom. 8:28

 

[Ron Arndt]

R. Charles Blair

Yes, we are saved by God's grace.Eph 2:8. But it is THROUGH the instrument of faith that we receive his grace. See Romans 3:26-28. Faith is believing.They are equivalent terms. This is what Paul meant when he told the Philippian jailer to "BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALL be saved." Acts 16:31 He was telling him to place his faith IN Christ for his salvation.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Brother Ron - No disagreement with this last post - simply a matter of keeping our language biblically accurate to avoid false impressions.
Thanks for the prompt response. Charles - Ro.8:28

 

[Tom Butler]

Glad to hear Bro. Blair mention repentance and faith. Peter told the folks in Jerusalem to repent. Paul told the jailer to believe. They are both gifts of God and inseparable--two sides of the same coin, so to speak. There is one school of thought that holds that one may exercise saving faith at one point,and later on repent and make Jesus Lord. I believe that is not correct.

Tom B

 

[HankD]

Altar, smalltar.The gospel was never meant to be scholastically dissected and researched for a person to be saved

Who said anything about a "dissection" of the Gospel in order to be saved? That was not the issue.

I quoted a Scripture which spoke of the "altar" which the merely religious have no right to eat:

Hebrews 13
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

I agree that the concept of dissection of the Gosepl in the preaching of it is not good, but for belivers to look at the many aspects of the Gospel should be their favorite pass time.

HankD

 

[Ron Arndt]

It really amazes me how Christianity spread so widely in the western and eastern world during the age of post Rome, when there were no bible colleges, church buildings, PTL,TBN,and mass media via the radio.Could it be the message was SIMPLE, without needing to understand theology, eschatology, soterology and ecclessiology? Just think about it for awhile.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by R. Charles Blair:
"Sell all you have" = "Repent."

"Come follow Me" = "Believe." (Always in that order; repentance, turning from; faith, turning to.) It is the same message in every passage, though expressed according to the situation.

Re "saved by faith" 100 times - sorry, I can't find a single such reference. To the contrary, I can find many which state that we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. If I am saved by my faith, then if I quit believing, I am lost. If I am saved by grace when I believe, then He is honor-bound to keep that which He has purchased. He may chastise me freely, for I am His; but for Him to cast away one who has ceased to believe in a difficult moment would mean all were forever lost.

Yes, this is something of a technical, linguistic issue, but there is a deep point in it. Some of the most important words in any language are the prepositions.

Many things this side of that moment are "by faith" according to Scripture - sanctified, justified, living, even dying - but what God does He does well, without mixture of human ability, even "foreseen faith."

Wishing you His best - Bro. Charles Blair - Rom. 8:28

I agree that "sell all you have" was to repent. But "follow me" does not equal faith. It equals faith plus (gulp) christian works. Suppose the deciples had said we believe in you Lord but will not follow you? I t5hink you realize that there's a huge difference and I believe that it's the main reason why the church isn't more effective in today's world. Faced with a growing faction in the church who yell "grace only" or "faith plus nothing" the new christian (and more mature ones) say GREAT. That means I don't have to worry about decipleship.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Faith begins at a moment and continues forever. It may waver or weaken, but as a gift of God it is never withdrawn (Ro. 11:29; see especially New King James and/or Greek - "irrevocable," that is, God will not repent of His actions so as to cancel them.
(When man repents, he changes his will; when God repents, He wills a change.) Otherwise we are teaching possible loss of salvation, which would mean that no one would get to Heaven, for "all continue to fall short of the glory of God," Ro. 3:23 Gr.) I support deepening discipleship, with the order always being that of Eph. 2:8-10, grace, faith, works (fruit), and the principle being "Salvation before service as stated in Scripture." As any normal child wants to grow up ("When can I have a driver's license, the car keys, etc?") so any normal believer wants to grow, not into, but in grace. I also oppose the cheap, shoddy sort of "evangelism" which does not call for a total commitment. Thanks for your interesting response.
Best in Him - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[Tom Butler]

I went back to page 4 of this thread to read Ed Sutton's now-famous composite invitation. It triggered another line which we need to rethink. Something like, "Will you come? Come on. God is waiting on you."

If one is Reformed, such an invitation is inconsistent, because God does everything necessary for our salvation in His own time and is not waiting on anyone. If one is not Reformed, then it does make sense, because God has done all he could, and is helpless before one's will, and must wait anxiously for a response.

What we believe definitely drives what we do.

Tom B.

 

[HankD]

Not that God has done all that He could but all that all that He has willed or decreed.

Granted He knows the outcome of every individual, but to fulfill all righteousness that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before Him in His Sovereignty He allows individuals to pass through this life and put their stamp of approval (or not) on what they are and receive the consequence of the righteous Judge of all the earth.

He is not helpless before one's will or anxious but lets what He already knows will come to pass happen.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

On the human side of the Sovereignty of God, we should, as the Lord and the Apostles, offer the Salvation of God to all and yes even persuade them and "let the chips fall where they may" without an assessment as to whether they are able to believe or not (as someone else has alreday noted).

NKJV Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

KJV Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Straightandnarrow says:

That means I don't have to worry about decipleship.

In a way this is true. One plants another waters but God gives the increase.
After one is saved and comes into the fold of a local church, discipleship should be a priority whether reformed or not through local church ministry of those gifted to to do so.

This corresponds (IMO) to the outcome of the 4 seeds and the soil that they land in RE: the Matthew 13 parable.

The Lord Himself predicted that this would be the model, the Gospel is preached and even received but not all will bring forth fruit.

Functionally in any local Church under the distribution of the spiritual gifts there are those who are gifted to evangelize, to pastor and others to teach, although I suppose one individual could have more than one gift.

HankD