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I disagree.

People become "Calvinists" because they study Scripture, and then they find out some guy named "John Calvin" happened to teach and believe some of the same things they stumbled upon themselves, without the help of men.

Not everyone.
Most people never dump their philosophies...

Some people dump both, and trust the Lord and His word exclusively, and their world views are dictated by what God's word says.

It really cannot be conclusively proven in a court of law one way or the other.

Some would say they came up with it on their own, but some believe a miraculous work of God's grace took place, and they came to it gradually, as Scripture became clearer the more they studied it.

I've done that repeatedly for over almost two decades now.
No change, only a firmer understanding of what started to coalesce some 17 years ago, and even before that.

God's children see their Saviour through a glass, darkly...
Not God's word.

Again, you seem to be stuck with this belief that God's word cannot ever be fully understood this side of eternity, by those to whom it was written to.
I don't believe that, and though I once did long ago, I now do not.

 

I've never read his writings, except the chapter in his "Institutes" on Predestination.

I can't say that I've ever cared one whit about anything he wrote, honestly.
To me, anyone that would get caught up in what happened at Geneva, with Michael Servetus' death, and with never departing infant baptism and referring to the elements as "sacraments", probably never really did completely abandon the Roman Catholic Church and its ways.

Based on his writings and other information, I stand in a fair bit of doubt of his salvation, mainly because he never saw a problem with persecuting those who differed with him.
Real Christians do not persecute anyone, for any reason.

Thanks for the encouragement.

I began ditching my presuppositions ( most of which had been planted there by my Independent Baptist pastors for over 20 years ) at the point I first started seeing election for myself in God's word.
By 2007 I completely left the traditional "church system" and simply took everything back to the Bible.

I think that they would be appalled at what has happened to the professing body of Christ down through the centuries.

Their worldview was nothing like ours.

I differentiate between those who learn it traditionally, and are in lock step with their pastors, and those who completely ignore what is coming out of the pulpit and simply read and understand their Bibles for themselves.

So, there's "Calvinists" and there are Calvinists.

 

It is a bad word.
In fact, God's word calls man's philosophy, "vain", and goes so far to say that man's understanding is an affront to God.

Scripture develops God's "philosophy", not man's rebellious philosophical corruptness.
God's ways are alien to those who hate Him, and take time to work in to the minds of those who love Him.

Scripture presents only one judicial framework...
God's.

There are no others.

Mine as well.

Again, I don't pay much attention to what Calvin wrote, so I'm unable to see through his "lens".
I have no use for systematic theologies, either.

Claiming that everyone who looks and sounds like John Calvin only serves to lump people who have never studied him into the same boat.
The same as calling someone an "Arminian" who came to their beliefs without the help of men.

I don't.

Don't there, either.
Our will does not determine our salvation...God's does.

Our will is affected by God's power and work, but it does not affect God's decision to save someone.
Believers repent because of a heart change, not because of an act of the will that changes the heart.

I agree.

They are called "tares", and they were sown in Christ's field by His enemy, the devil.
Tares are in fact Satan's children, and have never been born again.

They will eventually fall away under trials and tribulations, while the saints will not.

I agree.
There are many things that traditional Calvinists do not take into account when reading the Scriptures, IMO.

 

That is what I thought you'd say.

Again, God's word and the correct understanding of it, are antithetical to human philosophies of any kind.
The Bible does not make sense to the natural man, and never will.
He defies man's philosophies, by granting His children, abject "nobodies", a gift that cannot be earned..
Both eternal life and everything that goes along with it.

The best we men can do without the Spirit of God, is a very good job at "reverse-engineering"...which relies on a consensus of commentaries and scholars to eke out mediocre understanding of it.

God's children have the unique privilege of having been given the right to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven...
His secret is with the righteous.

They can and will come to understand it, given enough time, Jon.
That's how much He loves them, by leading them into all truth.



May God be pleased to grant you many good gifts, sir.

 

Then Paul was writing to an audience that would never grasp the contents of his letter, wasn't he?

Dave,
Scripture is not some mystery that cannot be understood.
It is God's word to His people.

It is spiritual, and it can be understood by someone who is truly saved.
It takes time and study.

That is all.

 

Not ad hominem...
A blunt comment whose purpose is to get you to realize that not all Baptists hold to your beliefs, and that they have the right to speak their opinions in the sections that are reserved for Baptists, the same as you do.

Not anymore they're not.

200-300 years ago?
The landscape was very different, Van.

There were no "Free Will Baptists" in the 1600-1700s, Van.

They were known as "Methodists" and "Arminians".
"Free Will Baptists" hold all five of "Wesleyan Arminianism's" points.

Your pronouncements notwithstanding, I still think the reasons I gave are valid.
Timothy knew the Scriptures from a child, just like anyone trained in a religious home would know them.

Timothy, like all of God's children, did not hear the Gospel of his salvation until later in life, when God opened his heart, just like He did for Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

Scripture provides the reason some do not believe, Van:.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

 

Yet another Calvinist running away from their doctrine, total spiritual inability as a result of God's curse due to the Fall, resulted in God being responsible for rejecting the gospel according to the false doctrine of Calvinism.

 

Dave' comments in black, Van's in red.
A blunt comment whose purpose is to get you to realize that not all Baptists hold to your beliefs, and that they have the right to speak their opinions in the sections that are reserved for Baptists, the same as you do. Ad hominem on top of ad hominem, "get you to realize that not all Baptist hold to your beliefs." Almost all the baptists on this board disagree with my beliefs.

Not anymore they're not.
Less than 40% of Baptists are Calvinists. "Free Will Baptist is a denomination and group of people that believe in free grace, free salvation and free will. The movement can be traced back to the 1600s with the development of General Baptism in England." Wikipedia

Your pronouncements notwithstanding, I still think the reasons I gave are valid.
Timothy knew the Scriptures from a child, just like anyone trained in a religious home would know them. Once again you say a person with total spiritual inability can know God's word. Cognitive dissonance anyone?

Timothy, like all of God's children, did not hear the Gospel of his salvation until later in life, when God opened his heart, just like He did for Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ). Thus Timothy did not have "total spiritual inability" making your doctrine unbiblical.

Once again the"not of My sheep" means they were not open to God's word, their hearts were hardened. Others of course are "of My sheep" and comprise the fields white for harvest.

 

Yes, some Baptists are "Calvinists", according to the label that you assign to them.

Even though they are now ( 200-300 years later ) a minority, they still enjoy the privilege of posting on a Baptist board the same as you do, don't they?

Almost all Baptists on this board disagree with some or most of mine, as well.

I believe in all those, too.
I just happen to see Scripture teaching that that freedom does not extend to God's deciding to save someone, and never has.

According to His word, our will as fallen men stops right at the threshold of repentance.
That is why it has to be graciously granted to someone ( as well as their spiritually rebellious and hardened hearts opened ), so that they might listen intently to God's words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )...

Just like Lydia was.

Truly, he that is "of God" hears God's word and admits that it is truth, just as Christ said it was ( John 17:17 ).
Those that do not, reveal that they are not "of God" ( John 8:43-47 ).

 

No, I did not.

I said anyone can know God's words.
Not just anyone can believe and truly understand them.

That takes a miracle of God to shine the light of His word on, and to overcome with His truth, the carnal mind that is at enmity with Him ( Romans 8 )...
To overcome the mind that thinks that the preaching of the cross is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

I know plenty of unbelievers who know parts of God's word, including John 3:16, but they do not truly believe them and it doesn't "stick" with them.
They do not treat God's word seriously, in most cases.
In fact, sometimes they mock it.

Many of them go to church every Saturday and / or Sunday.
They attend "Catholic" churches, "Methodist" churches, and even "Baptist" churches.
They sit and play on their phones, talk to their neighbors in the pews next to them, and think about everything under the sun;
Including the upcoming ball game and anything else that they find pleasurable...
Which shows that their hearts are far from Him and His words.

You see Van, unless someone has the Spirit of God in them, they are none of His ( Romans 8:1-17 ).
They can and very often do populate every church on every street corner in the United States and elsewhere throughout the world.

They think that they are saved because of something they did and do.
The Lord Jesus will put that notion to rest on Judgment Day ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) and it will be a very terrible day for many...

Many who thought that their efforts and their beliefs are what gained them God's favor.

 

I agree, Van.

That is what happened after the Fall...
All men's hearts were hardened, and God gave us over to it.
Please see Romans 1 through Romans 3.

So, the reason anyone believes on Him is because they are of His sheep, and are not of the goats.
They have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:31-34 ).

In addition, for an enlightening contrast between those whom God has made righteous by the blood of His Son, versus those who are hardened and wicked in their hearts due to their love of sin, please read the Psalms and Proverbs thoroughly...
They really are a valuable education for anyone who truly wants to know what the Lord has done for those He loves and will continue to do for them.


May God, in His grace, grant you His blessings in many ways.

 

We can indeed understand scripture once saved and illuminated by the Holy Spirit, but none will have perfect understanding and theology!

 

I know of no Calvinist who holds that God is responsibility for sinners rejecting Jesus!

 

" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

Then according to the way you're convinced, believers in Jesus Christ will never:

1) Be perfected as saints.
2) Completely edified ( built up ).
3) Never know Him or what He has done for us, thoroughly.
4) Never experience the fullness of Christ.
5) Never come together in the unity of the faith.
6) Never completely grow up, spiritually.
We as believers will always be children, carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and their cunning craftiness.
7) Never experience the reality of the Body of Christ being fitly joined together and "compacted", partaking of that which every "joint" supplies.

Because that is what the word of God promises, Dave.
That we can know Him, can worship Him in Spirit and in truth, and can experience the reality of maturing into a more perfect "man".

Either the perfecting of the saints is real and can be experienced at some point in a believer's life, or it cannot be experienced this side of eternity and He doesn't mean what He says in this passage.

You decide.

 

We will never be in a state where fully matured, nor all perfect in understanding of scriptures!