Revealed and Concealed Truth.

[Dave G]

People become Calvinists because they study Scripture and interpret Scripture along the lines of Calvinism.

I disagree.

People become "Calvinists" because they study Scripture, and then they find out some guy named "John Calvin" happened to teach and believe some of the same things they stumbled upon themselves, without the help of men.

We all hold philosophies and worldviews because we are human.

Not everyone.
Most people never dump their philosophies...

Some people dump both, and trust the Lord and His word exclusively, and their world views are dictated by what God's word says.

Calvinists can claim that God showed them Calvinism (and perhaps the angel took the golden tablets and magic glasses), but they reasoned out Scripture and came up with that conclusion on their own.

It really cannot be conclusively proven in a court of law one way or the other.

Some would say they came up with it on their own, but some believe a miraculous work of God's grace took place, and they came to it gradually, as Scripture became clearer the more they studied it.

What we do is look at Scripture and see where understandings may be wrong. In other words, we test doctrine which should be developed from Scripture against Scripture itself.

I've done that repeatedly for over almost two decades now.
No change, only a firmer understanding of what started to coalesce some 17 years ago, and even before that.

Systematic theology is studying and reasoning out Scripture as a whole. I always encourage this approach as we do it anyway and having a plan (and realizing we see through the glass dimly in this life) is necessary.

God's children see their Saviour through a glass, darkly...
Not God's word.

Again, you seem to be stuck with this belief that God's word cannot ever be fully understood this side of eternity, by those to whom it was written to.
I don't believe that, and though I once did long ago, I now do not.

 

[Dave G]

I think you would appreciate Calvin. His works on prayer (and his pastoral works in general) are very good.

I've never read his writings, except the chapter in his "Institutes" on Predestination.

I can't say that I've ever cared one whit about anything he wrote, honestly.
To me, anyone that would get caught up in what happened at Geneva, with Michael Servetus' death, and with never departing infant baptism and referring to the elements as "sacraments", probably never really did completely abandon the Roman Catholic Church and its ways.

Based on his writings and other information, I stand in a fair bit of doubt of his salvation, mainly because he never saw a problem with persecuting those who differed with him.
Real Christians do not persecute anyone, for any reason.

My comments here is that the first step in studying Scripture should be in examining our presuppositions (we all have them).

Thanks for the encouragement.

I began ditching my presuppositions ( most of which had been planted there by my Independent Baptist pastors for over 20 years ) at the point I first started seeing election for myself in God's word.
By 2007 I completely left the traditional "church system" and simply took everything back to the Bible.

Two thousand years have passed since the Apostles walked the earth. Do we really think that their worldview is like ours?

I think that they would be appalled at what has happened to the professing body of Christ down through the centuries.

Their worldview was nothing like ours.

I am glad you are not a Calvinist, although I believe that the conclusion of TULIP is correct.

I differentiate between those who learn it traditionally, and are in lock step with their pastors, and those who completely ignore what is coming out of the pulpit and simply read and understand their Bibles for themselves.

So, there's "Calvinists" and there are Calvinists.

 

[JonC]

I've never read his writings, except the chapter in his "Institutes" on Predestination.

I can't say that I've ever cared one whit about anything he wrote, honestly.
To me, anyone that would get caught up in what happened at Geneva, with Michael Servetus' death, and with never departing infant baptism and referring to the elements as "sacraments", probably never really did completely abandon the Roman Catholic Church and its ways.

Based on his writings and other information, I stand in a fair bit of doubt of his salvation, manly because he never saw a problem with persecuting those who differed with him.
Real Christians do not persecute anyone., for any reason.

thanks for the encouragement.
I began ditching my presuppositions ( most of which had been planted there by my Independent Baptist pastors for over 20 years ) at the point I first started seeing election for myself in God's word.
By 2007 I completely left the traditional "church system" and simply took everything back to the Bible.


I think that they would be appalled at what has happened to the professing body of Christ down through the centuries.

I differentiate between those who learn it traditionally, and are in lock step with their pastors, and those who completely ignore what is coming out of the pulpit and simply read and understand their Bibles for themselves.
So, there's "Calvinists" and there are Calvinists.

I hope you read more of Calvin. I also hope you do not ignore Arminius (Beza himself applauded his scholarship). There is so much history to study.

More than that I hope you study Scripture apart from your presuppositions..

I look forward to your discoveries. If you ever want to discuss things in person please do not hesitate to contact me via PM.

In Christ always,

John

 

[Dave G]

You guys have to get off the kick that "philosophy" is a bad word.

It is a bad word.
In fact, God's word calls man's philosophy, "vain", and goes so far to say that man's understanding is an affront to God.

If you think Scripture is absent philosophy then you are foolish.

Scripture develops God's "philosophy", not man's rebellious philosophical corruptness.
God's ways are alien to those who hate Him, and take time to work in to the minds of those who love Him.

Scripture brings up more than one judicial philosophy.

Scripture presents only one judicial framework...
God's.

There are no others.

My belief is that the Christian worldview and philosophy is different from a human worldview and philosophy.

Mine as well.

Calvinism applies a human worldview and philosophy to divine justice as the "normal reading" or "plain meaning" to the text. That is where I believe that Calvinism fails - it was still born.

Again, I don't pay much attention to what Calvin wrote, so I'm unable to see through his "lens".
I have no use for systematic theologies, either.

Claiming that everyone who looks and sounds like John Calvin only serves to lump people who have never studied him into the same boat.
The same as calling someone an "Arminian" who came to their beliefs without the help of men.

I also believe that Christ died so that all men can be saved,

I don't.

that men must repent and believe of their own will to be saved,

Don't there, either.
Our will does not determine our salvation...God's does.

Our will is affected by God's power and work, but it does not affect God's decision to save someone.
Believers repent because of a heart change, not because of an act of the will that changes the heart.

and that many who believe now will perish in the end.

I agree.

They are called "tares", and they were sown in Christ's field by His enemy, the devil.
Tares are in fact Satan's children, and have never been born again.

They will eventually fall away under trials and tribulations, while the saints will not.

These all fit together. If you do not understand how then you are probably a Calvinist.

I agree.
There are many things that traditional Calvinists do not take into account when reading the Scriptures, IMO.

 

[JonC]

It is a bad word.
In fact, God's word calls man's philosophy, "vain", and goes so far to say that man's understanding is an affront to God.

Scripture develops God's "philosophy", not man's rebellious philosophical corruptness.
God's ways are alien to those who hate Him, and take time to work in to the minds of those who love Him.

Scripture presents only one judicial framework...
God's.

There are no others.

Mine as well.

Again, I don't pay much attention to what Calvin wrote, so I'm unable to see through his "lens".
I have no use for systematic theologies, either.

Claiming that everyone who looks and sounds like John Calvin only serves to lump people who have never studied him into the same boat.
The same as calling someone an "Arminian" who came to their beliefs without the help of men.

I don't.

Don't there, either.
Our will does not determine our salvation...God's does.

Our will is affected by God's power and work, but it does not affect God's decision to save someone.
Believers repent because of a heart change, not because of an act of the will that changes the heart.

I agree.

They are called "tares", and they were sown in Christ's field by His enemy, the devil.
Tares are in fact Satan's children, and have never been born again.

They will eventually fall away under trials and tribulations, while the saints will not.

I agree.
There are many things that traditional Calvinists do not take into account when reading the Scriptures, IMO.

Look again. Scripture speaks of vain philosophy. But if all philosophy is bad then Calvinism is heresy and Calvinists are damned because Calvinism depends on hunanistic philosophy at its core.

 

[JonC]

I've never read his writings, except the chapter in his "Institutes" on Predestination.

I can't say that I've ever cared one whit about anything he wrote, honestly.
To me, anyone that would get caught up in what happened at Geneva, with Michael Servetus' death, and with never departing infant baptism and referring to the elements as "sacraments", probably never really did completely abandon the Roman Catholic Church and its ways.

Based on his writings and other information, I stand in a fair bit of doubt of his salvation, manly because he never saw a problem with persecuting those who differed with him.
Real Christians do not persecute anyone., for any reason.

thanks for the encouragement.
I began ditching my presuppositions ( most of which had been planted there by my Independent Baptist pastors for over 20 years ) at the point I first started seeing election for myself in God's word.
By 2007 I completely left the traditional "church system" and simply took everything back to the Bible.


I think that they would be appalled at what has happened to the professing body of Christ down through the centuries.

I differentiate between those who learn it traditionally, and are in lock step with their pastors, and those who completely ignore what is coming out of the pulpit and simply read and understand their Bibles for themselves.
So, there's "Calvinists" and there are Calvinists.

You should.

 

[Dave G]

But if all philosophy is bad then Calvinism is heresy and Calvinists are damned because Calvinism depends on hunanistic philosophy at its core.

That is what I thought you'd say.

Again, God's word and the correct understanding of it, are antithetical to human philosophies of any kind.
The Bible does not make sense to the natural man, and never will.
He defies man's philosophies, by granting His children, abject "nobodies", a gift that cannot be earned..
Both eternal life and everything that goes along with it.

The best we men can do without the Spirit of God, is a very good job at "reverse-engineering"...which relies on a consensus of commentaries and scholars to eke out mediocre understanding of it.

God's children have the unique privilege of having been given the right to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven...
His secret is with the righteous.

They can and will come to understand it, given enough time, Jon.
That's how much He loves them, by leading them into all truth.



May God be pleased to grant you many good gifts, sir.

 

[JonC]

That is what I thought you'd say.

Yes, I will always strive to speak Truth.

 

[Dave G]

I hold that the Apostles, as in the Original 11 and Paul, were perfect in their written down and recorded Theology to us, as that was inspired! So doubt very much that you and I will ever understand Romans as well as Paul!

Then Paul was writing to an audience that would never grasp the contents of his letter, wasn't he?

Dave,
Scripture is not some mystery that cannot be understood.
It is God's word to His people.

It is spiritual, and it can be understood by someone who is truly saved.
It takes time and study.

That is all.

 

[Dave G]

Ad hominem indicating the use of logical fallacies probably in a dark corner.

Not ad hominem...
A blunt comment whose purpose is to get you to realize that not all Baptists hold to your beliefs, and that they have the right to speak their opinions in the sections that are reserved for Baptists, the same as you do.

The majority of Baptists are not Calvinists.

Not anymore they're not.

200-300 years ago?
The landscape was very different, Van.

One branch held Calvinistic views, the other Free will Baptists did not.

There were no "Free Will Baptists" in the 1600-1700s, Van.

They were known as "Methodists" and "Arminians".
"Free Will Baptists" hold all five of "Wesleyan Arminianism's" points.

Once again the absurdity is claimed, a person can know scripture yet be unable to understand all spiritual things. This ploy of denying their own doctrine belongs in a dark corner.

Your pronouncements notwithstanding, I still think the reasons I gave are valid.
Timothy knew the Scriptures from a child, just like anyone trained in a religious home would know them.

Timothy, like all of God's children, did not hear the Gospel of his salvation until later in life, when God opened his heart, just like He did for Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

The Calvinists invented a reason why many rejected their gospel, putting the blame of God. Utter nonsense.

Scripture provides the reason some do not believe, Van:.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

 

[Van]

Blame for rejecting the Gospel never put on God by us, its placed upon lost sinners who reject Jesus to save them from their sins!

Yet another Calvinist running away from their doctrine, total spiritual inability as a result of God's curse due to the Fall, resulted in God being responsible for rejecting the gospel according to the false doctrine of Calvinism.

 

[Iconoclast]

I disagree.

People become "Calvinists" because they study Scripture, and then they find out some guy named "John Calvin" happened to teach and believe some of the same things they stumbled upon themselves, without the help of men.

Not everyone.
Most people never dump their philosophies...

Some people dump both, and trust the Lord and His word exclusively, and their world views are dictated by what God's word says.

It really cannot be conclusively proven in a court of law one way or the other.

Some would say they came up with it on their own, but some believe a miraculous work of God's grace took place, and they came to it gradually, as Scripture became clearer the more they studied it.

I've done that repeatedly for over almost two decades now.
No change, only a firmer understanding of what started to coalesce some 17 years ago, and even before that.

God's children see their Saviour through a glass, darkly...
Not God's word.

Again, you seem to be stuck with this belief that God's word cannot ever be fully understood this side of eternity, by those to whom it was written to.
I don't believe that, and though I once did long ago, I now do not.

Yes indeed God's word is given that we may know the things that are freely given to us by the Spirit of God.
Some who do not understand try and maintain this veil of secrecy idea, so they can substitute vain philosophical notions in the place of revealed truth.
Have been around many solid churches and believers I can assure you that no real Calvinists suggest such folly as is offered here.
Grace in truth is revealed by God....not by mans supposed carnal wisdom, looking to explain truth away.

 

[Van]

Not ad hominem...

Dave' comments in black, Van's in red.
A blunt comment whose purpose is to get you to realize that not all Baptists hold to your beliefs, and that they have the right to speak their opinions in the sections that are reserved for Baptists, the same as you do. Ad hominem on top of ad hominem, "get you to realize that not all Baptist hold to your beliefs." Almost all the baptists on this board disagree with my beliefs.

Not anymore they're not.
Less than 40% of Baptists are Calvinists. "Free Will Baptist is a denomination and group of people that believe in free grace, free salvation and free will. The movement can be traced back to the 1600s with the development of General Baptism in England." Wikipedia

Your pronouncements notwithstanding, I still think the reasons I gave are valid.
Timothy knew the Scriptures from a child, just like anyone trained in a religious home would know them. Once again you say a person with total spiritual inability can know God's word. Cognitive dissonance anyone?

Timothy, like all of God's children, did not hear the Gospel of his salvation until later in life, when God opened his heart, just like He did for Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ). Thus Timothy did not have "total spiritual inability" making your doctrine unbiblical.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

( John 10:26 ).

Once again the"not of My sheep" means they were not open to God's word, their hearts were hardened. Others of course are "of My sheep" and comprise the fields white for harvest.

 

[Dave G]

Less than 40% of Baptists are Calvinists.

Yes, some Baptists are "Calvinists", according to the label that you assign to them.

Even though they are now ( 200-300 years later ) a minority, they still enjoy the privilege of posting on a Baptist board the same as you do, don't they?

Almost all the baptists on this board disagree with my beliefs.

Almost all Baptists on this board disagree with some or most of mine, as well.

"Free Will Baptist is a denomination and group of people that believe in free grace, free salvation and free will.

I believe in all those, too.
I just happen to see Scripture teaching that that freedom does not extend to God's deciding to save someone, and never has.

According to His word, our will as fallen men stops right at the threshold of repentance.
That is why it has to be graciously granted to someone ( as well as their spiritually rebellious and hardened hearts opened ), so that they might listen intently to God's words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )...

Just like Lydia was.

Truly, he that is "of God" hears God's word and admits that it is truth, just as Christ said it was ( John 17:17 ).
Those that do not, reveal that they are not "of God" ( John 8:43-47 ).

 

[Dave G]

Once again you say a person with total spiritual inability can know God's word. Cognitive dissonance anyone?

No, I did not.

I said anyone can know God's words.
Not just anyone can believe and truly understand them.

That takes a miracle of God to shine the light of His word on, and to overcome with His truth, the carnal mind that is at enmity with Him ( Romans 8 )...
To overcome the mind that thinks that the preaching of the cross is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

I know plenty of unbelievers who know parts of God's word, including John 3:16, but they do not truly believe them and it doesn't "stick" with them.
They do not treat God's word seriously, in most cases.
In fact, sometimes they mock it.

Many of them go to church every Saturday and / or Sunday.
They attend "Catholic" churches, "Methodist" churches, and even "Baptist" churches.
They sit and play on their phones, talk to their neighbors in the pews next to them, and think about everything under the sun;
Including the upcoming ball game and anything else that they find pleasurable...
Which shows that their hearts are far from Him and His words.

You see Van, unless someone has the Spirit of God in them, they are none of His ( Romans 8:1-17 ).
They can and very often do populate every church on every street corner in the United States and elsewhere throughout the world.

They think that they are saved because of something they did and do.
The Lord Jesus will put that notion to rest on Judgment Day ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) and it will be a very terrible day for many...

Many who thought that their efforts and their beliefs are what gained them God's favor.

 

[Dave G]

Once again the"not of My sheep" means they were not open to God's word, their hearts were hardened.

I agree, Van.

That is what happened after the Fall...
All men's hearts were hardened, and God gave us over to it.
Please see Romans 1 through Romans 3.

So, the reason anyone believes on Him is because they are of His sheep, and are not of the goats.
They have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:31-34 ).

In addition, for an enlightening contrast between those whom God has made righteous by the blood of His Son, versus those who are hardened and wicked in their hearts due to their love of sin, please read the Psalms and Proverbs thoroughly...
They really are a valuable education for anyone who truly wants to know what the Lord has done for those He loves and will continue to do for them.


May God, in His grace, grant you His blessings in many ways.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then Paul was writing to an audience that would never grasp the contents of his letter, wasn't he?

Dave,
Scripture is not some mystery that cannot be understood.
It is God's word to His people.

It is spiritual, and it can be understood by someone who is truly saved.
It takes time and study.

That is all.

We can indeed understand scripture once saved and illuminated by the Holy Spirit, but none will have perfect understanding and theology!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another Calvinist running away from their doctrine, total spiritual inability as a result of God's curse due to the Fall, resulted in God being responsible for rejecting the gospel according to the false doctrine of Calvinism.

I know of no Calvinist who holds that God is responsibility for sinners rejecting Jesus!

 

[Dave G]

We can indeed understand scripture once saved and illuminated by the Holy Spirit, but none will have perfect understanding and theology!

" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

Then according to the way you're convinced, believers in Jesus Christ will never:

1) Be perfected as saints.
2) Completely edified ( built up ).
3) Never know Him or what He has done for us, thoroughly.
4) Never experience the fullness of Christ.
5) Never come together in the unity of the faith.
6) Never completely grow up, spiritually.
We as believers will always be children, carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and their cunning craftiness.
7) Never experience the reality of the Body of Christ being fitly joined together and "compacted", partaking of that which every "joint" supplies.

Because that is what the word of God promises, Dave.
That we can know Him, can worship Him in Spirit and in truth, and can experience the reality of maturing into a more perfect "man".

Either the perfecting of the saints is real and can be experienced at some point in a believer's life, or it cannot be experienced this side of eternity and He doesn't mean what He says in this passage.

You decide.

 

[Yeshua1]

" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

Then according to the way you're convinced, believers in Jesus Christ will never:

1) Be perfected as saints.
2) Completely edified ( built up ).
3) Never know Him or what He has done for us thoroughly.
4) Never experience the fullness of Christ.
5) Never come together in the unity of the faith.
6) Never completely grow up, spiritually.
We as believers will always be children, carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and their cunning craftiness.
7) Never experience the reality of the Body of Christ being fitly joined together and "compacted", partaking of that which every "joint" supplies.

Because that is what the word of God promises, Dave.
That we can know Him, worship Him in Spirit and in truth, and to experience the reality of maturing into a more perfect "man".

Either the perfecting of the saints is real and can be experienced at some point in a believer's life, or it cannot be experienced this side of eternity and He doesn't mean what He says in this passage.

You decide.

We will never be in a state where fully matured, nor all perfect in understanding of scriptures!