Featured Revealed and Concealed Truth.

Then to me, you're denying what God's word explicitly states in Ephesians 4...

That the reason that apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers and preachers are given to the body, is so that we as believers can be all of those things I listed in my last post.
For the perfecting of the saints, etc. until we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to the point of being a perfect "man", so that we are no more being carried about with every wind of doctrine.

I'm sorry, Dave, you and I will have to disagree.
I'll believe the passage, you go ahead and believe whatever you want.
That is why I earlier asked you...

... because it wasn't God's word.

Have a good evening sir.

 

Van, I would appreciate if you would help me understand your condemnation of the "false doctrine of Calvinism". If you chose to help me, please provide scripture to support your position.

While I do not self-identify as a Calvinist, some on this board have labeled me a hyper-Calvinist.

TULIP, the five points of Calvinism, I believe are validated by scripture. This validation is independent of any man and is in the inspired word of God. Do you agree?

Take care and stay safe.

 

What passage states that we will have perfect theology and understand perfectly the scriptures?

 

Van has a unique view on salvation, as he thinks tbat lost sinners are trying their best to get saved, and that natural man receives the spiritual things of God!

 

Wesley, your post sounds like the posts I should receive, but don't.
I have found by a study of scripture that the "TULI" of the Tulip are false doctrines.

1) Total Spiritual inability falsely says the lost, until regenerated, cannot understand any spiritual thing. However, Timothy knew scripture from his youth, therefore he did understand some spiritual things. Thus the biblical doctrine is "Limited Spiritual Ability" which means able to understand and respond to "Spiritual Milk" but unable to understand Spiritual Meat (Solid food). 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3. 2 Tim. 3:15.

2) Unconditional Election falsely says God did not choose individuals for salvation through or on the basis of faith. However 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says individuals are chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit (being set apart in Christ) and through or on the basis of faith in the truth. Other verses say we were saved by grace through faith. Since faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand (Romans 5:1-2) our faith must exist before we are chosen and placed in Christ.

3) Limited Atonement falsely says Christ died only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However, 1 John 2:2 says Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation not only for us, but also for the whole world.

4) Irresistible Grace falsely says the lost cannot seek God until enabled by "irresistible grace" and once enabled the person is irresistibly brought to faith. However, Matthew 23:13 teaches some individuals were seeking God (in the process of entering the kingdom) but were prevented from entering by false teachings. This verse actually demonstrates both the T and the I of the tulip are unbiblical.

 

Van, thanks for your reply to help me understand your position relating to Calvinism. I plan to study your position and look for some common ground.

 

The Holy Spirit, many times through the mouths of His witnesses, makes no bones about laying the blame for the murder of Christ squarely on the Jews. It's succinctly illustrated in the story of Joseph as a type of Christ:

20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen 50

Sure, the crucifixion was God's grand plan all along but in no way does that negate the criminal actions of the Jews. They and their children paid dearly for the crime.

 

but in no way does that negate the criminal actions of the Jews.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen 3:19

Did they make themselves vessels of dishonor? Were they made vessels of dishonor for the greater plan?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Romans 9:20,21

I wonder what the Master Potter has in mind for the dust of the ground, the clay and the bones? Jeremiah 18:4 Ezekiel 37:13,14

 

The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)


Definition of deprave | Dictionary.com

Deprave: to make morally bad or evil; vitiate; corrupt.


Depravity (depraved in mind) in the KJV was translated corrupt minds in the ESV.

[1Ti 6:5 ESV] 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

[1Ti 6:5 KJV] 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


Sin resulted in the corruption of the human race.

[Mar 7:21-23 ESV] 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."



Unconditional Election: [Eph 2:4-7 ESV] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[Rom 9:11 ESV] 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--

Sheep, goats; narrow gate–few, broad gate-many; right hand, left hand. Pictures of division between repentant sinners and non-repentant sinners.

If there were any pre-conditions required for God to apply His grace to the sinner, the application would be the results of works.

[Rom 11:6 ESV] 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


Limited Atonement (Reconcillation)

[1Jo 2:2 KJV] 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

I appreciate you challenging the Limited Atonement based on 1 John 2:2. I have no clear resolution to our quandary.

Jesus said: [Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


[Mat 7:13-14 ESV] 13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

[Jhn 10:14-15 ESV] 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

[Rom 5:11 KJV] 11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.[G2643]

[Rom 5:11 ESV] 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


Strong's G2643 in the following manner: reconciliation (2x), atonement (1x), reconciling (1x).

exchange

of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values

adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour

in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ


Irresistible Grace: [Act 13:48 ESV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

[Mat 12:14 KJV] 14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

[Mat 23:13 KJV] 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Van, I see how it might be concluded 23:13 implies that men might be actively wanting to enter the kingdom of heaven. However, due to the fact the Pharisees were trying to destroy Jesus and his purpose of making the kingdom of heaven available to men, the elect, not the general public. If the Pharisees succeeded, the kingdom would be shut.


And that’s the way I see it!

My hope and purpose is to offer different ways of looking at scripture.

May the Holy Spirit teach us both the truth of God’s word.

 

1) The issue you addressed was that the fall resulted in every person being corrupted. Which of course is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the false assertion the fall resulted in the "Total Spiritual Inability" of fallen mankind, unable to seek God or put their trust fully in Christ. None of the verses addressed that claim.

2) Ephesians 2:4-7 does not address unconditional or conditional election. Romans 9:11 supports conditional election, the younger was chosen over the older, so the older would serve the younger. Paul taught faith is not works, so you claim per-conditions require a salvation based on works is unbiblical. " Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"

3) In John 17, Jesus prays for (1) His disciples, (2) born anew believers, and (3) all mankind.
17 Sanctify them [disciples) in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me [born anew believers] through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world [all mankind] may believe that You sent Me.
Matthew 7:12-14 does not conflict with Jesus being the means of salvation for the whole world., It just says only a few find salvation. John 10:14-15 refers to all mankind as the sheep, consistent with laying down His life for the whole world. Christ's death provided the means of salvation to all mankind, but only those who "receive" the reconciliation are saved. The meaning of "reconciliation" (being saved forever) is not in dispute.

4) Acts 13:48 indicates those who accepted the Gospel's direction to eternal life believed. The world translated as "appointed" refers to an agreement by mutual consent. Matthew 12:14 is non-germane to the topic. Matthew 23:13 directly teaches men were seeking God but were not under the compulsion of "irresistible grace." Saying the verse does not mean what it says because that would shut the kingdom from all mankind is nonsense. The biblical view is false teaches hinder the ministry of reconciliation.

 

Would you have received Jesus as Lord apart from the working of the Holy Spirit then?

 

Yeshua 1 once again asks a question implying my view represents false doctrine. This is all the Calvinists have, deflect, deny and change the subject. Notice Y1 avoided the following!!

1) The issue you addressed was that the fall resulted in every person being corrupted. Which of course is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the false assertion the fall resulted in the "Total Spiritual Inability" of fallen mankind, unable to seek God or put their trust fully in Christ. None of the verses addressed that claim.

2) Ephesians 2:4-7 does not address unconditional or conditional election. Romans 9:11 supports conditional election, the younger was chosen over the older, so the older would serve the younger. Paul taught faith is not works, so you claim per-conditions require a salvation based on works is unbiblical. " Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"

3) In John 17, Jesus prays for (1) His disciples, (2) born anew believers, and (3) all mankind.
17 Sanctify them [disciples) in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me [born anew believers] through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world [all mankind] may believe that You sent Me.
Matthew 7:12-14 does not conflict with Jesus being the means of salvation for the whole world., It just says only a few find salvation. John 10:14-15 refers to all mankind as the sheep, consistent with laying down His life for the whole world. Christ's death provided the means of salvation to all mankind, but only those who "receive" the reconciliation are saved. The meaning of "reconciliation" (being saved forever) is not in dispute.

4) Acts 13:48 indicates those who accepted the Gospel's direction to eternal life believed. The world translated as "appointed" refers to an agreement by mutual consent. Matthew 12:14 is non-germane to the topic. Matthew 23:13 directly teaches men were seeking God but were not under the compulsion of "irresistible grace." Saying the verse does not mean what it says because that would shut the kingdom from all mankind is nonsense. The biblical view is false teaches hinder the ministry of reconciliation.

 

So is your short answer yes or no?

 

Yeshua1 once again asks a question. This is all the Calvinists have, deflect, deny and change the subject. Notice Y1 avoided the following!!

1) The issue you addressed was that the fall resulted in every person being corrupted. Which of course is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the false assertion the fall resulted in the "Total Spiritual Inability" of fallen mankind, unable to seek God or put their trust fully in Christ. None of the verses addressed that claim.

2) Ephesians 2:4-7 does not address unconditional or conditional election. Romans 9:11 supports conditional election, the younger was chosen over the older, so the older would serve the younger. Paul taught faith is not works, so you claim per-conditions require a salvation based on works is unbiblical. " Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"

3) In John 17, Jesus prays for (1) His disciples, (2) born anew believers, and (3) all mankind.
17 Sanctify them [disciples) in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me [born anew believers] through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world [all mankind] may believe that You sent Me.
Matthew 7:12-14 does not conflict with Jesus being the means of salvation for the whole world., It just says only a few find salvation. John 10:14-15 refers to all mankind as the sheep, consistent with laying down His life for the whole world. Christ's death provided the means of salvation to all mankind, but only those who "receive" the reconciliation are saved. The meaning of "reconciliation" (being saved forever) is not in dispute.

4) Acts 13:48 indicates those who accepted the Gospel's direction to eternal life believed. The world translated as "appointed" refers to an agreement by mutual consent. Matthew 12:14 is non-germane to the topic. Matthew 23:13 directly teaches men were seeking God but were not under the compulsion of "irresistible grace." Saying the verse does not mean what it says because that would shut the kingdom from all mankind is nonsense. The biblical view is false teaches hinder the ministry of reconciliation.

 

God chooses us first, we do not choose God
Natural man rejects Jesus as Lord and Messiah
Only those whom the Spirit enables to receive Jesus as Lord can!

 

Did anyone say God did not chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? Nope so a strawman deflection.
Did anyone say that natural men do not reject Christ? Nope so a strawman deflection.
Did anyone not say God must draw a person before they are given to Christ? Nope, so yet another strawman deflection.
Note Y1 still has not addressed the following.

1) The issue you addressed was that the fall resulted in every person being corrupted. Which of course is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the false assertion the fall resulted in the "Total Spiritual Inability" of fallen mankind, unable to seek God or put their trust fully in Christ. None of the verses addressed that claim.

2) Ephesians 2:4-7 does not address unconditional or conditional election. Romans 9:11 supports conditional election, the younger was chosen over the older, so the older would serve the younger. Paul taught faith is not works, so you claim per-conditions require a salvation based on works is unbiblical. " Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"

3) In John 17, Jesus prays for (1) His disciples, (2) born anew believers, and (3) all mankind.
17 Sanctify them [disciples) in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me [born anew believers] through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world [all mankind] may believe that You sent Me.
Matthew 7:12-14 does not conflict with Jesus being the means of salvation for the whole world., It just says only a few find salvation. John 10:14-15 refers to all mankind as the sheep, consistent with laying down His life for the whole world. Christ's death provided the means of salvation to all mankind, but only those who "receive" the reconciliation are saved. The meaning of "reconciliation" (being saved forever) is not in dispute.

4) Acts 13:48 indicates those who accepted the Gospel's direction to eternal life believed. The world translated as "appointed" refers to an agreement by mutual consent. Matthew 12:14 is non-germane to the topic. Matthew 23:13 directly teaches men were seeking God but were not under the compulsion of "irresistible grace." Saying the verse does not mean what it says because that would shut the kingdom from all mankind is nonsense. The biblical view is false teaches hinder the ministry of reconciliation.

 

What part of us was not corrupted by the Fall?