What are you talking about? God will save everyone He intends to save;
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Revelation 4:1 - Apostle John "Raptured"
- Thread starter beameup
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What are you talking about? God will save everyone He intends to save;
Hello Percho, just for the record, I do, for the most part, view Revelation as an unfolding of consecutive judgments within judgment, which I believe can fall under the heading of "the Day of the Lord," based upon the Old Testament use of this term.
Which can speak of both judgment as well as restoration through that judgment, as we see is the case with those that return to the Lord during this time.
I do see parenthetical insertions, but in large part have found that this book falls together better seeing it in order. It is when we have to "explain away" certain events through spiritualization it becomes harder to hold the flow, to me. Usually when something is symbolic or representing something, we see a "it was like a," rather than it "was a."
But each passage hs to be examined in order for us to make a conclusion.
When John writes the epistles to the Churches, he relays messages given him by the Lord, rather than personally relays known information. I am not sure if that is what you mean. Take a look at the beginning of Revelation:
Revelation 1
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
First notice that He is to come, not, He has come, end of story.
Then notice, John is told to write, and I use this epistle for the purpose of consideration of the "Seven Spirits" before His throne:
Revelation 3
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Again, not sure if this is what you are referring to, concerning the things that John "hast seen," but I look at this this way:
19Write the things which thou hast seen,
The encounter with the Lord Himself, on the Lord's Day (and I view this as the day of the week here, very likely to be the first day of the week).
...and the things which are,
Described in the epistles to the Churches.
and the things which shall be hereafter;
The events described in this book, starting with the seal judgments, at the very least.
I also believe that John saw these events in real time, that God transported him to see their unfolding, as starnge as that may sound.
I look at the verse which states that "one is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day" to illustrate that time is meaningless to an omnipotent God.
This verse is oftentimes used to give meaning to uses of time in certain passages, such as in Revelation 20, but I myself believe that Revelation 20 states that there will a 1000 year period which will have conditions that are different from the time we live in now, such as Satan being bound.
That's a biggie...lol.
I also believe that descriptions of the kingdom that was to come, what I would view as promises of God, become meaningless if there does not, in fact, come a kingdom for Israel. Revelation 20 speaks of this very kingdom, I believe.
The Day of the Lord is a great study. It is beneficial to me in the views I hold, though I have had adamant opposition as to what the Day of the Lord really is.
Me? No. I can understand the attempt to make the judgment of Revelation a general overview of history, but the book is clearly prophetic, and we have already seen one such internal claim:
Revelation 1
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
It would probably be agreed that the eternal state of the righteous at least is prophetic, and that it has not been fulfilled yet. So also with the GWT and the Lake of Fire.
I look at this book as a detailed description of the fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week, and a time of great tribulation accompanied by restoration for the Nation of Israel.
I do see a picture of the Millennial Kingdom in the passage quoted. Not the vial judgments themselves, for I view these to fall within that seven year period.
The implication is given in these vereses that in the Kingdom there will be celebration of the feast of tabernacles.
Return to the Law? No, that itself is an impossibility, however, even as we celebrate communion in memorial of that which Christ has done, I do believe that Israel will celebrate in memorial, like they did before, that which God accomplished in their lives.
I do not think these celebrations will overshadow the work of the Cross, but that work, I am sure you will agree, is celebrated every day in the lives of believers.
Thanks for the response, God bless.
I believe that the Lord will fulfill His promise to us, and guide us into all truth.
As far as Progressive Dispensationalists go, yes, I do believe He is guiding them as well. And I see how a preterist view infiltrates their doctrine.
However, until the doctrine is discussed, it would be best for us to humble ourselves before God, and seek His guidance, before declaring victory and superiority in understanding.
Did I? Let's take a look:
I have asked that you look at my own beliefs, rather than continually seeking to fortify your own position by introducing the beliefs of others. I have been in enough Dispensational fellowships to know that not all believe that God has "done away" with Israel. That is a distortion of what most dispensationalist believe.
It cannot be denied that Israel on a National basis has been blinded to the truth, not because God rejected them, but because they rejected Christ. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. They will, according to scripture, be restored to relationship with God and the Truth.
As far as "Jesus dying for the Church," how is it that the Church, which He is now building, was in existence before He died?
Show me one man in the Old Testament, under the Law or not...that was a born again, forgiven in completeness, eternally indwelt by God...Christian.
Show me how John the Baptist, or even the disciples of Christ...recognized and in full understanding received Christ.
For the record, I do not believe the "Church to be a 'parenthesis' in God's program for Israel," that is just in error on a number of points.
If you would care to know what I believe, it is that I see the Church as a part of the same program...for man.
Israel will, when they are restored and entered in to the New Covenant promised to them, be yet another fulfillment in this program of redemption of all men, not just Israel.
All redeemed of the entirety of human history will be...God's people. And there will be One Fold, One Shepherd, one...people of God.
God bless.
I do...lol.
Concerning this view, there is not a lot that I can say about it in particular.
I can agree in part with the sentiment presented, however, something to consider is that if this is the interpretation and understanding given to several passages that speak about resurrection, we would have to conclude that men do not enter into the Kingdom of God until they are bodily resurrected.
We must therefore identify our understanding of the Kingdom of God, and determine whether we can see in scripture reference to an internal Kingdom:
Luke 17
King James Version (KJV)
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
...an earthly Kingdom ( and I think Millennial would be the ideal illustration):
Luke 19:11
King James Version (KJV)
11And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
...or an heavenly Kingdom:
Revelation 22:14
King James Version (KJV)
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The, we look at what is taught concerning the resurrection of the just and the unjust, Revelation 20 being ideal in that is shows a separation of time between these two very different resurrections (of the just and unjust), which leads us to conclude that there will be multiple resurrections pertaining to the body.
Both will be resurrected, but not always at the same time, and never (concerning the just and unjust) for the same end, or determination of disposition, one group to eternal life, the other to eternal condemnation.
In the Old Testament, we have very little to go on concerning resurrection, but in the New Testament revelation we see much that we can come to some reasonable conclusions from.
Most will not deny that there is a resurrection, it is when it takes place that is usually in dispute, and that is when the discussion gets interesting. Look forward to discussing it with you.
God bless.
Be glad to:
1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
In view is the concern of those addressed, that those that died would not be denied participation in the event they expected...the return of the Lord.
Which denies a first century belief by Paul that "the Lord had already returned."
This is a future event.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Does Paul say, "Don't worry, we will wake them from their beds!"
No, because the sleep here speaks of those who died, even as our Lord spoke of Lazarus "sleeping."
He says the living believers will not precede those that have died, and then gives detail as to why in the next verse:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
When the Lord returns, He shall:
1-descend from heaven with a shout: this speaks of a physical return, when this:
Acts 1:11
King James Version (KJV)
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
...will be fulfilled.
2-with the voice of the archangel: a description of Christ's own voice, the shout which was previously stated...not that an Angel will come, but Christ Himself.
3-and with the trump of God: seen as a reference to the Seventh Trumpet Judgment by some, however, we can see that this is "the trump of God," not the "Seventh Trumpet Judgment." Furthermore, that it is the seventh trumpet judgment would place Christ's return before the end of the Tribulation period, a position that it seems few are willing to embrace, choosing rather to embrace pre, post, or "spritual application."
I myself take the view that this "trump" is indeed a "last call," but for the Church.
It is not unusual for a trumpet being sounded to gather God's people:
Exodus 19:13
King James Version (KJV)
13There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
4-and the dead in Christ shall rise first: clearly a resurrection. The question is, when does this take place?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Clearly a resurrection event that speaks of something other than death in general. Does this speak of the "general resurrection" spoken of in several passages?
That is what makes the discussion interesting.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul is saying, "Don't be unaware of what is going to happen, and don't think that those who have died will miss anything...nor shall we. Be comforted."
Okay, how does this speak of a pre-trib rapture? By itself, it doesn't. But that is not how we determine our theologies, is it? We consider all passages available.
This is just one passage of several that lead me to my pre-trib view.
If I have time, I will do another post of another passage.
God bless.
After giving probably the most detailed teaching we have concerning resurrection, Paul makes mention of the resurrection of the Church:
1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The contrast is simply between physical death, and physical resurrection.
All will be resurrected, including the wicked.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Christ, being the First to be resurrected in a glorified body, is the firstfruits of the dead. No man was glorified before Him, though some believe those resurrected when Christ died were firstfuits. That is not a possibility as we see here.
Here we see the order: First, Christ; second, those at Christ's coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
We can see that those resurrected at Christ's coming are not those spoken of in Revelation 20, at least that is my belief, as we are told that after the resurrection taking place at Christ's coming...then the end shall come.
We read on:
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Most will recognize that in the timeline of events, w have the tribulation, then the resurrection of those that seem to be clearly identified as those that have come out of the Tribulation, then, a reign of Christ for 1000 years.
After this resurrection, we see death and hell thrown into the Lake of Fire, and at this point, we will see what is spoken of here take place.
The thing to take note of is that there is clearly a resurrection at Christ's coming, a resurrection after the Tribulation, and the last enemy to bedestroyed, death, follows these events.
My position sees periods of time between three distinct events: Christ returns, where the dead in Christ rise and then those which remain; the Tribulation takes place and afterwards we see a resurrection, a 1000 year period takes place, and we again see a resurrection.
After this, death itself...ends.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
After explaining the different types of "bodies," and the difference between physical and spiritual bodies, Paul states:
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Christ Himself was a mystery, Paul states that this mystery was revealed to him through revelation.
Here, the mystery is not resurrection, as resurrection was taught, though in a very limited way, in the Old Testament, which Christ affirmed in His rebuke of the Sadducess, who held to an annihilationist view and rejected things supernatural.
Here, he tells us what this mystery is:
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
"The last trump." For who? Well, who exactly is Paul writing to? Who is he showing this mystery to?
The Church.
The Seventh Trumpet Judgment is not for the Church...it is for those being judged upon the earth.
Is resurrection and the spiritual body the mystery? Couldn't be, he just finished teaching about resurrection in the previous verses. In the previous verse he informs us that we shall not all die, but we will all be changed.
It will happen instantaneously, and this describes, in my view, the resurrection in which believers are glorified. When we balance this with 1 Thessalonians, it is reasonable to conclude that Paul is speaking of a resurrection in which both those in Christ that have died, as well as those that are alive at His return...will be glorified.
And the mystery presented here, Is that it will take place suddenly, and instantaneously, for those that are in Christ.
Why is that significant to me in a pre-trib application? Simply for the fact that believers knew a resurrection was coming. They knew from Daniel, for instance, that there would be a "general resurrection." What is different from this resurrection and the general view they held? What is different from this resurrection that would not hold true if this resurrection took place as they expected?
It is when this resurrection takes place. The "first Resurredtion" described in Revelation 20 does not fit this resurrection, as only those that have died are mentioned, and it seems clear that they came out of the Tribulation Period.
Here, the living, as well as the dead in Christ...are glorified. Not so in Revelation 20.
Okay, submitted for consideration.
God bless.
Stepping briefly from Paul's teaching, consider this statemnet of the Lord:
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I believe this to refer to "the things which shall be," which John will record.
That is, the Tribulation period, described in Revelation.
God bless.
I notice a theme that is happening to those who dispute the Dispy viewpoint concerning the scriptures...
They appear to be interacting with "old school" version of it, that indeed did seem to say isreal was under a covenant of law, while Church under grace, and did seem to say Law was up until the NT Epistles, and they did tend to see the Church almost as afterthought as result of isreal rejecting messiah!
I would probably fall under progressive Dispy, as I tend to see the Bible stating that people have ALWAYS been saved same way, through the Cross of Christ, and applied by faith/grace alone!
Do see the Church as part of Plan of God from the start, but do see both in plans of God, as isreal was under old Covenant, Church under new Covenant with God, and God moved to dealing with all peoples now via new Covenant , but after rapture, will get back to dealing with national isreal, Jewish nation, as I see that as being the time of 'Jacobs trouble", when Isreal will be purged and getting ready to be saved at messiah return, as per ezeckiel vision of bones putting on flesh and becoming alive again!
Hello JF, I hate to say it, but you seem to contradict yourself by saying both:
...and,
It is not a PD view that man has always been saved by the grace of God through faith, it is just a biblical fact embraced by many groups, because that is what scripture teaches. However, according to the revelation given to man at this point, Israel will be saved in completion like as we are through faith in Christ specifically.
I take the view that because Israel as a Nation, or better, THE Nation, has not embraced the New Covenant, they are, like all that are not in relationship with God...still held accountable to the Covenant of Law. That is why there will be a "reversion" to an Old Testament atmoshere, not that they will be saved differently.
They tried to appeal to the Abrahamic Covenant when disputing with Jesus, and He was clear that they were not the children of Abraham.
When the Church is raptured, there will be a time for Israel to be restored, but until they are brought to the point in which they embrace Christ, they are, by default, under Law.
And just as a suggestion, before expressing loyalty to Progressive Dispensationalism, I would highly recommend a thorough examination of all they believe (and of course as with all labels there will be differences) and a recognition of preterist theology as an admixture, though they may be "dispensational."
I am opposed to some of their doctrine, though there is much where we can find common ground.
It would be better for us to run under our proper name, Christians, and give our allegiance to Christ alone. We can "dispense" (lol) with the titles and still be a recognizable follower of Christ.
Okay, I have enjoyed all the discussion today, but my time is up.
God bless.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is your mistake. Dispensationalists grossly misinterpret the passage: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [Revelation 1:19]
The Book of Revelation in its entirety is written to and for the Church. There is nothing in the Revelation to indicate that part of the book is written to one group for one purpose and part of the book is written to a second group for some other purpose, notwithstanding the misuse of Revelation 1:19.
Revelation 1:19 is obviously written to be interpreted literally yet dispensationalists are perfectly willing to define an undetermined period of years [~2000 and counting] after "hereafter". Yet they insist on interpreting other references to time in the Book, regardless of the language as exact.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Some people totally ignore the terrible persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire before its fall and the slaughter of tens of thousands by the Roman Catholics during the dark ages!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Dispensationalists are given to screaming but that means nothing when they distort Scripture and teach that the Church is an afterthought and a failure!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So you believe there is more than one way to be saved?
Let me first say that I am glad I have only one mistake...lol.
Thanks!
(by the way...that is humor...literally)
Scripture, and it's entirety...is written for the benefit of mankind.
While it can be said it is written to and for the Church, the mistake made by some is to overlook that it is not written...entirely about the Church.
The epistles themselves were written to seven different Churches in existence at that time. Their messages were for each individually, however, would we say that one Church could disregard the commands given to the others?
Likewise we do not hoard the Revelation of Jesus Christ and make it for the Church alone. It is quite probable that many men have been saved through the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
And I am sure they would be the first to say that this book was indeed written for them.
Why is it that it's okay for one part to be literal, yet we must spiritualize much of it?
The book is usually quite clear when something is literal or not.
If it "like unto" something, that does not mean it doesn't occur. It just means "Het, this is what it appears to look like."
Irrelevant.
The amount of time has nothing to do with it, it is just a fact that this is a prophetic book, with internal evidence within.
Not true. I see 1000 years to be an exact time.
Have to run,
God bless.
When Christ said this:
Matthew 24
King James Version (KJV
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
...we can be sure He was not speaking hyperbole, but was stating how terrible this event would be.
I think most would agree that the 20th century produced more bloodshed and tribulation in the lives of several countries that were in fact worse than all that of the 1st century combined.
In the Tribulation, which Matthew 24 speaks about, there will be tribulation that will make all tribulation before it and any that follows look less than that foretold by the Lord here.
I know of no dispensational doctrine that does such, though perhaps those that think they are dispensational may.
Nothing in what was said implied this.
God bless.
We see things pretty much the same way in eschatology, i was just expressin the view that sometimes old school Dispy, did seem to implie teach that jews were saved under law covenant, Church under grace one, bothJews/Gentiles always saved by same means though...
It IS true however that the Law was to Isreal, Grace to Church as under the different covenants, not for salvation but per relationship to God!
And the Jews will have the Lord go back to direct dealings with them apart from new Covenant, once the Church is raptured out in end days...
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Absolute nonsense! Totally contrary to Scripture. There is no pre-trib rapture and there is not a single verse of scripture that indicates such. If there is produce one!
beameup
Member
Yes, of course. We all know how God is prone to "exaggeration" when writing the scripture.
Here is an example of Jesus exaggerating and misleading his closest disciples:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved Matt 24:21-22a
BTW, the "Church" has not "failed", it is simply time for God to fulfill his commitments to his People, his "blood" relatives...
unless you also believe that God is a promise breaker who's word is no good.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Where did you get that "blood" relatives nonsense??????
beameup
Member
Now don't read this because I'm sure that Matthew was trying to "mislead us".
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon
are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. - Matt 1:1, 17
And with John also, who was prone to "exaggeration".
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. - Rev 5:5
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