Revelation 4:1 - Apostle John "Raptured"

[OldRegular]

Some inhabitants of earth are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom and repopulate the earth.

Can you provide a Scripture reference for that statement?

 

[OldRegular]

It could be argued that at the Rapture harpazō we are not resurrected in our natural bodies but we are "changed" [transformed] into our "heavenly body" oikētērion...
instantly - "in the twinkling of an eye".

Can you provide a Scripture reference justifying belief in a so-called pre-trib rapture? I can provide Scripture that teaches a General Resurrection and a General Judgment and have many times. Why is it that you dispensationalists refuse to believe Scripture?

 

[OldRegular]

Whereas in the final-general "resurrection", all people will be raised from the dead in their earthly bodies (as Lazarus was).

Lazarus died again. He did not have a resurrection body. Are you saying that all those resurrected when Jesus Christ returns will die again? So He really did not conquer death?

 

[OldRegular]

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power - Rev 20:6

The First Resurrection was that of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are the "true believers"!!!!

 

[OldRegular]

Matthew 24

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


When the elect are gathered at the end of the Tribulation, these shall enter into the Kingdom which the disciples believed Messiah would establish.

There is no Scriptural basis for your statement. It is simply the figment of a vivid imagination!

 

[OldRegular]

Depends HOW one defines "general resurrection?"

I take the rapture as first resurrection, when saints receive glorified physical bodies, and that at end of Millenium will be the "general" one, to the Lost, who face Great White throneJudgement!

First resurrection for saints, second for sinners!

General resurrection means ALL! The resurrection of all the dead is clearly taught in John 5:28, 28.

John 5:28, 29 KJV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Very straight forward Scripture that can be taken at "face value" using Ryrie's term for literal interpretation.

 

[Darrell C]

The First Resurrection was that of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are the "true believers"!!!!

Revelation 20 does not speak of Christ's resurrection, but that of Tribulation Martyrs.

There is no Scriptural basis for your statement. It is simply the figment of a vivid imagination!

If a serious discussion is to be had, more than one-line denials must be presented.

I have done at this point several posts with scriptural presentation of why I believe in a pre-trib rapture. The responses have, in large part, been like this one.

Why not address the presentation and content of the scripture I have posted, as well as the commentary provided?

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Revelation 20 does not speak of Christ's resurrection, but that of Tribulation Martyrs.



If a serious discussion is to be had, more than one-line denials must be presented.

I have done at this point several posts with scriptural presentation of why I believe in a pre-trib rapture. The responses have, in large part, been like this one.

Why not address the presentation and content of the scripture I have posted, as well as the commentary provided?

God bless.

Darrell C

Your posts are very long and I am not going to take the time to refute every point. Wish I had that time but I don't!

You have yet to produce any Scripture teaching a so-called pre-trib rapture that has not been filtered through dispensational error.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C

Your posts are very long and I am not going to take the time to refute every point. Wish I had that time but I don't!

You have yet to produce any Scripture teaching a so-called pre-trib rapture that has not been filtered through dispensational error.

You can make time. Focus on one post, devote some time to responding to it.

An easy way to do this, OR, is to hit the quote button, simply put one portion in quotes at a time, insert your answer below, copy the rest, hit delete, then post the portion you have just answered.

For the record, I have no problem with those that deny a pre-trib rapture. I have great respect for some that defend their positions against it. It is just a fascinating discussion, and one that I enjoy.

It is becuase of discussions like these that I went from an acceptance of this doctrine as it was taught in the churches I attended, to a personal belief in a pre-trib rapture. The arguments against really lead to the conclusion that this is a credible belief.

In the posts I have done so far, I have addressed some key issues that must be resolved, such as our understanding of the "First" Resurrection, resurrection in general, and events which Christ describes in Matthew 24-25 and Luke 17.

We will not come to conclusions without a full examination of all related material, which is why a discussion of the Rapture is usually...very long. Because there is so much to consider before making conclusions.

Okay, I am out of time. If you would just take a look at what has been discussed so far, and I mean give it some consideration, then present your response, it can lead to a great discussion, one that can only lead to edification, though we might disagree who is edified...lol.

But really, all can be edified in discussing God's word. All can be challenged in their position. This is one of the great things about this particular discussion.

God bless.

 

[beameup]

Can you provide a Scripture reference justifying belief in a so-called pre-trib rapture? I can provide Scripture that teaches a General Resurrection and a General Judgment and have many times. Why is it that you dispensationalists refuse to believe Scripture?

They have already been provided.
Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken zōopoieō your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Thes 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise [up to meet the Lord] first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up harpazō together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed allassō, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [heavenly body]-oikētērion, and we shall be changed allassō.

Phil 3:21
Who shall change metaschēmatizō our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

NOTE: These passages pertain to the Gentile Bride of Christ, the Church that has been saved and sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit from Acts 2 until the harpazō:
Rom 8:11 ...shall also quicken zōopoieō your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. The indwelling Holy Spirit will not only cause us to undergo metamorphosis,
but will also cause us to escape the earth to be with the Lord. We are "sealed unto the day of redemption" [metamorphosis] by the Holy Spirit - Eph 4:30.

NOTE: This is not the "resurrection" spoken of elsewhere in the O.T. and Gospels. This is the harpazō which is available ONLY to those saved by the Gospel of Grace (without "works") which was made available to the Gentiles (and a "remnant" of Jews). This category is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and will be REMOVED prior to "all Hell breaking loose" on earth. This category will be at the
"Marriage Supper of the Lamb" and will be spared from the deception of the "man of sin" [False Christ].

 

[OldRegular]

They have already been provided.
Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken zōopoieō your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Says nothing about the so-called pre-trib "rapture", just the promise of the resurrection for the believer, consistent with John 5:28, 29.

1 Thes 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise [up to meet the Lord] first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up harpazō together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Says nothing about the so-called pre-trib "rapture", just the promise of the resurrection for the believer, consistent with John 5:28, 29.

1 Cor 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed allassō, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [heavenly body]-oikētērion, and we shall be changed allassō.

Says nothing about the so-called pre-trib "rapture", just the promise of the resurrection for the believer, consistent with John 5:28, 29.

Phil 3:21
Who shall change metaschēmatizō our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Says nothing about the so-called pre-trib "rapture", just the promise of the resurrection for the believer, consistent with John 5:28, 29.

NOTE: These passages pertain to the Gentile Bride of Christ, the Church that has been saved and sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit from Acts 2 until the harpazō:
Rom 8:11 ...shall also quicken zōopoieō your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. The indwelling Holy Spirit will not only cause us to undergo metamorphosis,
but will also cause us to escape the earth to be with the Lord. We are "sealed unto the day of redemption" [metamorphosis] by the Holy Spirit - Eph 4:30.

Sorry beameup! I did not see a single mention of the Gentile believer in the above Scripture.

NOTE: This is not the "resurrection" spoken of elsewhere in the O.T. and Gospels. This is the harpazō which is available ONLY to those saved by the Gospel of Grace (without "works") which was made available to the Gentiles (and a "remnant" of Jews). This category is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and will be REMOVED prior to "all Hell breaking loose" on earth. This category will be at the
"Marriage Supper of the Lamb" and will be spared from the deception of the "man of sin" [False Christ].

I did not see any restrictions in the above Scripture on those who were resurrected just the promise of the resurrection for the believer, consistent with John 5:28, 29.
.

 

[beameup]

...with John 5:28, 29.
.

Of course not, Old Regular. The Old Testament and the Gospels do not deal with the MYSTERY,
the Gentile Bride of Christ, aka: the Church.

To get the inside scoop on the MYSTERY, you have to go to the Apostle to the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul:

Rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Eph 3:3-6

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed
unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,
and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Eph 3:8-9

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach
among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all [men] see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:26

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

I could go on and on, but why bother? Obviously this "mystery" has not been revealed unto you.

 

[beameup]

Can you provide a Scripture reference for that statement?

Not until you understand the MYSTERY of the Gentile Bride of Christ.

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture knows nothing of the Gentile Bride of Jesus Christ. I assume that is part of your heretical hyper-dispensationalism.

You would have people believe that Jews who are saved, not being Gentiles, are not part of the Church.

You would have people believe that the Samaritans who were saved following by hearing Jesus Christ, and not by the mythical gospel of Paul, are not part of the Church.

You would have people believe that those Romans saved following the preaching of the Apostle Peter, and not by the mythical gospel of Paul, are not part of the Church!

You would have people believe that only the mythical gospel of Paul is valid.

All that is pathetic and tragic error at best and heresy at worst.

 

[beameup]

Scripture knows nothing of the Gentile Bride of Jesus Christ. [/b]

You gotta know where to look there Old Regular.
I'll give you a hint: it's not found in the O.T.
I'll give you another hint: it's not found in the Gospels.

Get back to me when you have found it. :wavey:

 

[OldRegular]

Get back to me when you have found it.

Since it is not there don't hold your breath!:laugh::wavey::laugh::wavey:

 

[beameup]

Since it is not there don't hold your breath!:laugh::wavey::laugh::wavey:

Like I said, it's nowhere found in the O.T.
and it's nowhere found in the Gospels.

I have found that you can come up
with almost ANY doctrine if you try
to use the O.T. and Gospels while
IGNORING the "foundation" of Paul's
Epistles. Of course, if you are a Jew
or not a believer, then I suppose it
doesn't matter much what you believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Of course, if you are a Jew
or not a believer, then I suppose it
doesn't matter much what you believe.

Actually beameup as a believer I am a Spiritual Jew and you are borderline close to questioning my salvation.:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

 

[Dr. Bob]

And with that - and a warning NOT to imply anything about the salvation of another brother or sister because of perceived doctrinal disagreement - we close this.