OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Keep going beameup. Pretty soon you will have the Mary the mother of Jesus Christ as the Eternal Virgin and the Mother of God!
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Revelation 4:1 - Apostle John "Raptured"
- Thread starter beameup
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Keep going beameup. Pretty soon you will have the Mary the mother of Jesus Christ as the Eternal Virgin and the Mother of God!
OR I will quote you in trying to make myself more clear to DC. Hope that's OK.
You are once again correct the book is written to the people of God undivided.
1:3 more or less says the whole book is a prophecy. Therefore future.
YLT 1:3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!
What time?
I assume, I can believe that from 1:10 (YLT I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,)
the everything is prophecy, future.
I do not think it was a day in the week sometime between 69 AD and 90 AD. I believe just as Ezekiel was carried by the Spirit of the Lord to Jerusalem. I believe Paul was carried by the Spirit of the Lord to the third heaven and saw this very same prophecy yet was not allowed to write about it for it was for John to write. The Spirit carried John to a point in time called the day of the Lord. What time? The time is nigh. The day of the Lord. Read 2 Peter 3:1-10.
YLT 1:19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;
Now if the book is prophecy, future then it is in the future that John is writing, thou hast seen, past tense from the day of the Lord, things that are, on the day of the Lord and things that are about to come, after the day of the Lord.
I believe the day of the Lord last from his coming our resurrection for one thousand years until the new heavens and new earth begin.
BTW, I have not studied this enough to know how it reads with the total word of God.
Also I believe we are begotten of God by the Holy Spirit setting us apart as sons of God and heirs of the kingdom of God which we will inherit when born into the kingdom of God at the coming of Christ by resurrection or instant change as spiritual beings.
Most of this post was to DC yet quoted to OR because of his concept of Rev 1:19. I do nor expect OR to agree with all or any of this post and I understand.
beameup
Member
Of course, we cannot "trust" what the Apostle Paul wrote either:
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people - Romans 11:1,2a
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid - Rom 11:11a
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? - Rom 11:15
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness
in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. - Rom 11:25
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (genetic Israel):
For this is my COVENANT unto them, when I shall take away their sins. - Rom 11:26-27
For the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE [without repentance]. Rom 11:29
Sorry, but unlike you Supersessionists, I have not borrowed my entire theology from the backslidden Roman Catholic Church.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
percho
The Book of Revelation is a book of prophecy, much of it written in apocalyptic language. Note Verse 1.1
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
John states that the things he writes must shortly come to pass and that the time is nigh. Does that mean that the full-preterists are correct? Was the prophecy in the Book of Revelation fulfilled in 70 AD? I think not!
Now to Verse 19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
John is to write the things that he sees, whatever he is given to see including the things which shall be hereafter; When does hereafter start? Taking the word literally hereafter starts right after the things which are. Are is present tense. It is not after a period of 2000+ years and counting.
The Book of Revelation teaches eternal, theological principles and portrays on a cosmic scale the struggle between good and evil, between the Triune God and Satan, from the incarnation of God the Son until His return in power and glory, the General Resurrection and General Judgment, ending with the New Heavens and New Earth where God will tabernacle with the redeemed of all time.
Consider the revelation given in Chapter 12.
:1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That is not a picture of something that happens during a mythical 7-year tribulation. These verses depict the Incarnation; the birth of Jesus Christ. We see the efforts of Satan to tempt Jesus Christ. We see the sacrificial death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, and His victory over or binding of Satan. Finally we have a picture of the Salvation of the Elect of God through the Blood of the Lamb and the Kingdom of God within each believer as shown:
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The book of Revelation is a glorious picture of the Victory of Jesus Christ over Satan and the vindication of all "true believers", not a pathetic picture of some 7-year period, the product of the imagination of Darby, Scofield, and assorted others
The Book of Revelation is a book of prophecy, much of it written in apocalyptic language. Note Verse 1.1
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
John states that the things he writes must shortly come to pass and that the time is nigh. Does that mean that the full-preterists are correct? Was the prophecy in the Book of Revelation fulfilled in 70 AD? I think not!
Now to Verse 19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
John is to write the things that he sees, whatever he is given to see including the things which shall be hereafter; When does hereafter start? Taking the word literally hereafter starts right after the things which are. Are is present tense. It is not after a period of 2000+ years and counting.
The Book of Revelation teaches eternal, theological principles and portrays on a cosmic scale the struggle between good and evil, between the Triune God and Satan, from the incarnation of God the Son until His return in power and glory, the General Resurrection and General Judgment, ending with the New Heavens and New Earth where God will tabernacle with the redeemed of all time.
Consider the revelation given in Chapter 12.
:1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That is not a picture of something that happens during a mythical 7-year tribulation. These verses depict the Incarnation; the birth of Jesus Christ. We see the efforts of Satan to tempt Jesus Christ. We see the sacrificial death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, and His victory over or binding of Satan. Finally we have a picture of the Salvation of the Elect of God through the Blood of the Lamb and the Kingdom of God within each believer as shown:
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The book of Revelation is a glorious picture of the Victory of Jesus Christ over Satan and the vindication of all "true believers", not a pathetic picture of some 7-year period, the product of the imagination of Darby, Scofield, and assorted others
Hello OR, only have a few minutes this morning, so this will be brief.
The point sought to be made here, I can understand. However, we can, by a look at these words see that we need not embrace a view that demands immediate fulfillment. As to what is meant by "the things which shall be 'hereafter,' " we can pinpoint a dividing line by the book itself, at least that is how it seems to me:
Revelation 1
King James Version (KJV)
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Revelation 4
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Leaving my understanding expressed earlier intact.
As in the passage given, I would agree, however, the description of events goes beyond a portrayal of cosmic struggle.
And the events, for the most part, cannot be seen fulfilled in human history.
I am glad, though, that we do have some common ground in other areas.
I see this as an encapsulated overview, though I see it taking us into the Tribulation.
But how do we go from this passage being an overview...to the entire book being one also? That is the question.
We see this elsewhere:
Revelation 11:15
King James Version (KJV)
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
...but we have yet the Third Woe, which I believe describes the Seven Vial judgments poured out on the earth.
Satan's "reign" upon the earth at this time has ended, God directing events, Satan left to undergo them, rather than having an ability to direct affairs as he has done for so long.
Then explain where the Seventieth Week was fulfilled.
And that is all the time I have for this morning.
God bless.
The point sought to be made here, I can understand. However, we can, by a look at these words see that we need not embrace a view that demands immediate fulfillment. As to what is meant by "the things which shall be 'hereafter,' " we can pinpoint a dividing line by the book itself, at least that is how it seems to me:
Revelation 1
King James Version (KJV)
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Revelation 4
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Leaving my understanding expressed earlier intact.
As in the passage given, I would agree, however, the description of events goes beyond a portrayal of cosmic struggle.
And the events, for the most part, cannot be seen fulfilled in human history.
I am glad, though, that we do have some common ground in other areas.
I see this as an encapsulated overview, though I see it taking us into the Tribulation.
But how do we go from this passage being an overview...to the entire book being one also? That is the question.
We see this elsewhere:
Revelation 11:15
King James Version (KJV)
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
...but we have yet the Third Woe, which I believe describes the Seven Vial judgments poured out on the earth.
Satan's "reign" upon the earth at this time has ended, God directing events, Satan left to undergo them, rather than having an ability to direct affairs as he has done for so long.
Then explain where the Seventieth Week was fulfilled.
And that is all the time I have for this morning.
God bless.
convicted1
Guest
Revelation 3:10 Jesus promises to keep his faithful church from the "terrible distress to come in those days"
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I thought dispensationalists call the 7 letters to the 7 Churches "the things that are" [Revelation 1:19]. In any event what does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture.
John 5: 28, 29 teaches a General resurrection and a General Judgment regardless of how often dispensationalists deny That truth.
The 7 churches are representative of the different 'types" of believers in the Church age that was future, to come....
Church in Philadlphia was faithful to jesus, and would be rewarded by being taken away before the great and terrible day of the lord!
And we deny there being JUST a single general resurrection, as that one is for the purpose of the Great White throne judgement, while the Rapture or Second Coming will be the saved unto glorification!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Who says??
If that is true then they are part of the things which shall be hereafter; and Revelation 4-22 is applicable to the Church!:laugh::sleeping_2:
Because you and Darby/Scofield say that does not make it so!!!!!
Look at the passage JF.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Nothing there about:
Try to exegete the passage. Note that Jesus Christ says:
11. Behold, I come quickly
Did He come quickly?
Well you are 100% wrong JF. John 5:28, 29 is to be interpreted literally and teaches a General Resurrection and General Judgment of all the dead!!!!! There is no basis for any other interpretation not withstanding Margaret MacDonald, Scofield/Darby/Chafer/Walvoord/dispensational error and their failure to understand Daniel's 70th week.:laugh::sleeping_2:
convicted1
Guest
Nope. The seven candlesticks represent the seven churches in Asia Minor/Turkey.
When you deny the general resurrection, you have denied the Word, my Brother.
beameup
Member
It could be argued that at the Rapture harpazō we are not resurrected in our natural bodies but we are "changed" [transformed] into our "heavenly body" oikētērion...
instantly - "in the twinkling of an eye".
Whereas in the final-general "resurrection", all people will be raised from the dead in their earthly bodies (as Lazarus was).
Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken zōopoieō your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 Thes 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise [up to meet the Lord] first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up harpazō together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed allassō, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible oikētērion, and we shall be changed allassō.
Phil 3:21
Who shall change metaschēmatizō our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
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convicted1
Guest
When the dead are raised, they will be adorned in spiritual bodies, that will never die. The dead in Christ will be given glorified spiritual bodies, but the dead in sin people will be given a body that isn't glorified. Both are spiritual, just the CHRISTians new spiritual bodies will be glorified.
beameup
Member
Ahhhh, not so fast.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. - Rev 20:5
Now, when they are judged in the final judgment then they will "lose their soul" and then be condemned to "eternal death" (whatever that entails).
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power - Rev 20:6
convicted1
Guest
Try to get 1,007 years from this passage:
The sheep and goats are seperated at the same time, their sentences rendered, and some go up(sheep), and some go down(goats). There is no 1,007 years between the two judgements Brother.
When Jesus comes in the Cloud, He will have His reward with Him. He will give their reward to them according to the deeds they did in theie body, whether it be good or bad. It is here that the just and unjust get their spiritual bodies. Only the just's will be glorified, though.
There is no need, for these passages refer to the Tribulation, not the end of the Millennial Kingdom. At this judgment, which will take place at the end of the Tribulation Period, there will be only 1000 years left.
When we consider this statement:
The text provided shows us something quite the opposite of this:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
It is the wicked that leave...not the righteous.
This is made clear through the entire passage:
Matthew 24
King James Version (KJV)
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples ask of Christ's return. In view is the return of the Lord, not the Great White Throne.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
We see in Luke familiar terminology describing the destruction of the wicked:
Luke 17
24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
This also speaks of the return of the Lord, but first, Christ must die.
The following passage is by some also mistaken as a rapture passage, but it is not, it describes the coming judgment upon the world, in which those that are taken, are taken in judgment:
34I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
One taken, one left. The goats are taken, the sheep remain, to enter the Millennial Kingdom.
35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
They ask specifically, "Where will they be taken, Lord?"
The answer? Where the eagles will be gathered. This speaks of their physical death, though the eternal punishment of Matthew 24 is still applicable, for they will be lost...eternally.
We see this in the description of Tribulation in Revelation also, for after the Lord's return we read:
Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version (KJV)
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
All three of these passages detail the same event, which is the judgment of God fallen upon the world in the Tribulation.
Continued...
Matthew 24
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When the elect are gathered at the end of the Tribulation, these shall enter into the Kingdom which the disciples believed Messiah would establish.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
This being a prophetic passage, "this generation" taken by some to refer to not just those who would endure the persecution in their day, but also to "the generation" which should witness the unfolding of events which would be tribulation as never before. We still await the fulfillment of this prophecy in my view.
Heaven and earth will not pass until all that Christ teaches here is fulfilled. And the supper of the Great God has not yet...been fufilled, nor has the earthly reign and rule in fulfillment of God's promises to Israel been fulfilled.
Consider;
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Though giving detail as to events, the time of fulfillment is not given to man, but, as we read in several places, the Lord and His judgment shall come upon an unsuspecting world "like a thief," though, not on the Church:
1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Why not, Paul? He just told us in the previous chapter...we will be caught up.
However, as he will go on to teach, when The Day of the Lord does come, it will be sudden, "quickly," upon an unsuspecting world that has refused to obey the Gospel and knows not God.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
When the Lord returns (and remember that is the question which the Lord is answering to the disciples here), it will be as the days of Noah, and what was the result in that time, but judgment upon an unsuspecting, God-rejecting world. So our Lord teaches here.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
As He taught in Luke, Christ makes it clear that those who are taken are taken in judgment.
It is more than doubtful that this speaks of the Great White Throne, for believers will be under the direct rule of Christ at this time, and that day will not come upon them as a thief, as it is said here.
Take careful note that the Lord does not differentiate about who this day comes upon, for all will be taken by surprise...
Yet Paul teaches that believers know that this day is coming, and it will not come upon us "as a thief," so how do we reconcile the passages?
It is very simple: In Matthew 24 and similar passages we see Christ instructing what will befall, which is judgment in His return.
Those taken are they that die in the Tribulation, those left are they which endure to the end, and literally fulfill the promise of God, and enter this Kingdom.
Okay, sorry for the length. This should be enough to stir up conversation.
God bless.
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When the elect are gathered at the end of the Tribulation, these shall enter into the Kingdom which the disciples believed Messiah would establish.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
This being a prophetic passage, "this generation" taken by some to refer to not just those who would endure the persecution in their day, but also to "the generation" which should witness the unfolding of events which would be tribulation as never before. We still await the fulfillment of this prophecy in my view.
Heaven and earth will not pass until all that Christ teaches here is fulfilled. And the supper of the Great God has not yet...been fufilled, nor has the earthly reign and rule in fulfillment of God's promises to Israel been fulfilled.
Consider;
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Though giving detail as to events, the time of fulfillment is not given to man, but, as we read in several places, the Lord and His judgment shall come upon an unsuspecting world "like a thief," though, not on the Church:
1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Why not, Paul? He just told us in the previous chapter...we will be caught up.
However, as he will go on to teach, when The Day of the Lord does come, it will be sudden, "quickly," upon an unsuspecting world that has refused to obey the Gospel and knows not God.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
When the Lord returns (and remember that is the question which the Lord is answering to the disciples here), it will be as the days of Noah, and what was the result in that time, but judgment upon an unsuspecting, God-rejecting world. So our Lord teaches here.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
As He taught in Luke, Christ makes it clear that those who are taken are taken in judgment.
It is more than doubtful that this speaks of the Great White Throne, for believers will be under the direct rule of Christ at this time, and that day will not come upon them as a thief, as it is said here.
Take careful note that the Lord does not differentiate about who this day comes upon, for all will be taken by surprise...
Yet Paul teaches that believers know that this day is coming, and it will not come upon us "as a thief," so how do we reconcile the passages?
It is very simple: In Matthew 24 and similar passages we see Christ instructing what will befall, which is judgment in His return.
Those taken are they that die in the Tribulation, those left are they which endure to the end, and literally fulfill the promise of God, and enter this Kingdom.
Okay, sorry for the length. This should be enough to stir up conversation.
God bless.
Depends HOW one defines "general resurrection?"
I take the rapture as first resurrection, when saints receive glorified physical bodies, and that at end of Millenium will be the "general" one, to the Lost, who face Great White throneJudgement!
First resurrection for saints, second for sinners!
beameup
Member
Where do you get "some go up" and "some go down" from?
This is the judgment executed upon the inhabitants of the
earth when Christ returns with his holy angels in power and
great glory to execute judgment.
Some inhabitants of earth are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom
and repopulate the earth. The others have taken the mark of the beast
and will be thrown directly into the lake of fire just like the Beast and False Prophet.
"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Mt 24:27
"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will
see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Mt 24:30
Just because the word "cloud" is mentioned in the Rapture doesn't mean it is the exact same "cloud" circumstance mentioned at the Parousia.
In the case of the Rapture, Christ does not set foot on earth but rather meets believers "in the air".
In the case of the Parousia, Christ sets foot on earth to begin to establish his Kingdom on earth.
Big difference, and at least 7 years apart.
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OldRegular
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