Revival is...

[Tenchi]

We can have revival, provided God's faithful few pay God's price and have His mighty power!" (John R. Rice, We Can Have Revival Now, p. 33)

What is this price, exactly? Is God's reviving of His compromised children so transactional? Why would He hold the spiritual revival of others hostage to the paying of the price by the faithful few?

 

[John of Japan]

If there's one thing the Israelites demonstrated as a nation, it was how weak, vacillating and temporary their "obedience" to God was. Thank God, He made a "new and living way" through Christ (He. 10:19-22) by which we could "put on Christ" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), in him finding reconciliation to God and new life in the Spirit (2 Co. 5:17-20; Ro. 8:9-14). Apart from the life and work of the Spirit in us, his conviction (Jn. 16:8) and illumination of our minds and hearts to the Truth (Jn. 14:26, 16:13), his enabling "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Ti. 2:25), the injunction of 2 Chronicles 7:14 is impossible.

Oh, a Christian can have a fleshly response to the shame and guilt of a violated conscience, he can have a fleshly desperation to be free of the pain and trouble of his sinful choices, he can have a fleshly resolve never again to do as he's done, but, being fleshly, these things are inevitably short-lived, the corruption of the flesh poisoning all that arises from it, as God has warned it will (Ro. 7:18; Ga. 5:17; 6:7-8; Ro. 8:5-8). And so, I've seen many tears shed over sin, heard many weepy proclamations of repentance from, and confession of, evil living, but God wasn't in any of it. This was evident in how quickly the crying Christian, separated from the influence of the crowd at the revival meeting, returned to their old sinful pattern of living.

I say all this to point out that the command of 2 Chronicles 7:14, enacted apart from the power and work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, will only ultimately result in a return to former sinfulness, as the Israelite nation demonstrated, over and over again.

Really, I believe revival in a church is only necessary when proper discipleship has been neglected. If this isn't corrected, and discipleship (not mere Bible studies) instituted in the church, revival will, in time, be needed once more.

Well said.

 

[John of Japan]

What is this price, exactly? Is God's reviving of His compromised children so transactional?

I believe you told the price of revival in your first post, when you described the revival in Canada your grandfather talked about.

Why would He hold the spiritual revival of others hostage to the paying of the price by the faithful few?

I'm not real sure what you are asking with this.

 

[Tenchi]

I believe you told the price of revival in your first post, when you described the revival in Canada your grandfather talked about.

Hmmm... Is it a "price" that must be paid? These terms have a transactional flavor that I'm not sure I like. Or maybe, for me, it's that this language comes too close to the language of the cross: Jesus paid the price for us at Calvary which we were impotent to pay ourselves.

Did the Prodigal Son "pay a price" in order to return to fellowship with his father? As the Prodigal neared home, did his father stand in the roadway, arms crossed over his chest, a fierce scowl on his face, demanding retribution? It's hard to imagine the Good Shepherd, finding his wayward sheep entangled in a thorn bush, snarling at the sheep and extracting from it some price for rescue.

If I've got covered in mud, I don't think of getting into the shower as a price to be paid. If I've argued with my wife and want to restore fellowship with her, I don't think the negotiations necessary to doing so a price to be paid. I'm just pondering here...

I'm not real sure what you are asking with this.

Well, it seems to me that if God won't revive a cold, compromised community of believers except the "faithful few" bend over backward in some way to provoke Him to do so, God is holding the revival of the church hostage to the spiritual exertions of the "faithful few." What if the "faithful few" aren't strenuous enough in their application to God for revival? Is the whole community of believers "out of luck," then? It's hard to imagine that God would make His revival of a church so dependent upon the quantity of the labors the faithful few enact in order to move Him to restore His own children. Again, I'm only pondering here.

 

[John of Japan]

Hyman Appelman (1902-1983) was a Jewish evangelist who saw God use him in a mighty way.

Adrian Rogers on Hyman Appelman:
“Another evangelist who had a part in molding my preaching was Hyman Appelman. He was a Jew born in White Russia and had a degree in law. He was dramatically converted and was used to bring thousands to Christ. I read his books of sermons and was influenced by his style of preaching. A powerful preacher, he would alliterate his messages, use extensive vocabulary, and create deeply moving illustrations” (Joyce Rogers, Love Worth Finding. Nashville: Broadman and Holman Publ., 2005, p. 124)

“In 1942, at the invitation of more than two hundred churches, I preached the Gospel of redeeming grace for three weeks in Philadelphia, in Town Hall, and later in Convention Hall. This great revival, undergirded by the prayers of God’s people, shook that mighty city and resulted in more than twenty-seven hundred professions of faith. Under the organizing guidance of Horace Dean, the meetings brought salvation to the unsaved, blessed the people of God, and added new strength to the churches.”
(Hyman Appelman, The Life Story of Dr. Hyman J. Appelman, Solidchristianbooks.com, n.d., 32.)

 

[John of Japan]

Hmmm... Is it a "price" that must be paid? These terms have a transactional flavor that I'm not sure I like. Or maybe, for me, it's that this language comes too close to the language of the cross: Jesus paid the price for us at Calvary which we were impotent to pay ourselves.

Did the Prodigal Son "pay a price" in order to return to fellowship with his father? As the Prodigal neared home, did his father stand in the roadway, arms crossed over his chest, a fierce scowl on his face, demanding retribution? It's hard to imagine the Good Shepherd, finding his wayward sheep entangled in a thorn bush, snarling at the sheep and extracting from it some price for rescue.

If I've got covered in mud, I don't think of getting into the shower as a price to be paid. If I've argued with my wife and want to restore fellowship with her, I don't think the negotiations necessary to doing so a price to be paid. I'm just pondering here...

Point taken. Perhaps "conditions" would be a better term.

Well, it seems to me that if God won't revive a cold, compromised community of believers except the "faithful few" bend over backward in some way to provoke Him to do so, God is holding the revival of the church hostage to the spiritual exertions of the "faithful few." What if the "faithful few" aren't strenuous enough in their application to God for revival? Is the whole community of believers "out of luck," then? It's hard to imagine that God would make His revival of a church so dependent upon the quantity of the labors the faithful few enact in order to move Him to restore His own children. Again, I'm only pondering here.

I would not use your vocabulary here: "provoke," "faith few," "strenuous," "out of luck," etc. None of this paragraph points to what I've been saying.

 

[JesusFan]

Amen.

Scripture?

Amazing to me though how so many Christians and even big name pastors went gag ga over the so called revival movement i n Asbury College, as reminds me of the time when Catholics received "charismatic chaos", and once tongue babbling was heard, then all of the doctrine differences with Rome suddenly disappeared overnight

 

[JesusFan]

Point taken. Perhaps "conditions" would be a better term.

I would not use your vocabulary here: "provoke," "faith few," "strenuous," "out of luck," etc. None of this paragraph points to what I've been saying.

many times though seems like Revival broke at while people were last expected it, see the Reformation

 

[Tenchi]

I would not use your vocabulary here: "provoke," "faith few," "strenuous," "out of luck," etc. None of this paragraph points to what I've been saying.

I used these terms in order to highlight the often Man-centered thinking I've encountered over the years concerning revival. I wouldn't use this kind of language in framing my understanding of what revival is, either. But the quotation from John Rice used the phrase "faithful few":

"We can have revival, provided God's faithful few pay God's price and have His mighty power!" (John R. Rice, We Can Have Revival Now, p. 33)

My remarks about God holding the revival of His children hostage to the "faithful few" who are able to "purchase" it, is a response to Rice's remark above. The quotation is of a kind with a number of statements about revival that I've heard that subtly intrudes fleshly, self-effort into a work of God.

 

[37818]

"We can have revival, provided God's faithful few pay God's price . . . .

Absolute nonsense.
For in Romans 6:23, it is promised, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It is a gift.

 

[John of Japan]

I used these terms in order to highlight the often Man-centered thinking I've encountered over the years concerning revival. I wouldn't use this kind of language in framing my understanding of what revival is, either. But the quotation from John Rice used the phrase "faithful few":

"We can have revival, provided God's faithful few pay God's price and have His mighty power!" (John R. Rice, We Can Have Revival Now, p. 33)

My remarks about God holding the revival of His children hostage to the "faithful few" who are able to "purchase" it, is a response to Rice's remark above. The quotation is of a kind with a number of statements about revival that I've heard that subtly intrudes fleshly, self-effort into a work of God.

First of all, Rice's statement does not illustrated "Man-centered thinking." His belief about revival was that prayer and repentance, getting right with God and others, were absolutely needed. These are certainly not "Man-centered." Please look back at posts 55 and 56 in this thread, then come back and tell me that prayer and getting right with God do not bring revival. Note also that the phrase "pay the price" is not limited to money or whatever you are thinking. It can simply mean sacrifice, and that is how Rice means it.

If you knew John R. Rice like I did you would never, ever say his view was "fleshly, self-effort." He experienced revival with his pastor first at age 15, praying with him in a brush arbor and then seeing the Texas country church revived and many saved. He saw many Heaven-sent revivals from then on. For example, in the early years of his ministry he traveled throughout Texas having tent revivals, with many getting right with God. This resulted in 11 churches planted and hundreds of lost sinners saved. When I lived with him in his latter years, it was a privilege to pray with him and hear him before the throne of God. Read his book, We Can Have Revival Now, or the biography listed in my signature here.

As for the phrase "God's faithful few," many times revivals start with just one person. Study the Welsh revival and how it started with Duncan Campbell. Campbell believed much like Rice. See this website: Duncan Campbell quotes. (Caveat: please don't think I agree with all of the quotes.")

 

[John of Japan]

Absolute nonsense.
For in Romans 6:23, it is promised, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It is a gift.

To be fair to Tenchi, he did not say this, but got it in my quote by John R. Rice. And he was not talking about salvation but revival.

 

[John of Japan]

many times though seems like Revival broke at while people were last expected it, see the Reformation

I would not call the Reformation a revival, though there were revivals that occurred because of it. It was a very wide spread movement, spanning continents and countries, not a single revival event.

 

[37818]

. . . he was not talking about salvation but revival.

Revival not resulting in salvation, isn't.

 

[John of Japan]

Once again, folks, look at 2 Chronicles 7:14. This is undeniably about revival, and there are undeniably conditions attached to it:

"If my people, which are called by my name," namely believers, Jewish in the context, but modern believers in application.

"shall humble themselves,"--God will never send revival to the proud and self-serving. Revival is not a game of believers looking for religious excitement, but a God sent heavenly rain that He sends to humble believers. This totally rules out the Charismatic "revivals" like the so-called "Toronto Blessing," which includes idiocy like being "drunk in the Spirit."

"and pray, and seek my face,"--Prayer is absolutely essential for revival, as well as all spiritual activities. God waits for our prayer, for us seeking His face for revival. I find it passing strange that someone would think God sends revival without us praying. We are commanded, "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17). And, "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" (Eph. 6:18).

"and turn from their wicked ways;"--Believers must repent of all known sin and give themselves to God. They must be right with both God and Man, abandoning selfish ways and bitterness, or He will not send revival. God is not capricious, to send revival at a time when the hearts of His people are not turned to Him.

"then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."--Are there conditions for revival? Absolutely. Believe that, or disbelieve God's eternal Word to us in this passage.

 

[John of Japan]

Revival not resulting in salvation, isn't.

You said that correctly with the word "resulting." I have already said on this thread that revival is among believers, and that it results in souls being saved. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you have not read the whole thread, but just jumped in on that one quote. Sorry if I am mis-judging you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As for the phrase "God's faithful few," many times revivals start with just one person. Study the Welsh revival and how it started with Duncan Campbell. Campbell believed much like Rice. See this website: Duncan Campbell quotes. (Caveat: please don't think I agree with all of the quotes.")

I think you mean the Hebrides Revival.

 

[37818]

You said that correctly with the word "resulting." I have already said on this thread that revival is among believers, and that it results in souls being saved. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you have not read the whole thread, but just jumped in on that one quote. Sorry if I am mis-judging you.

Maybe, maybe not. I understand revival to be winning the lost.

 

[John of Japan]

I think you mean the Hebrides Revival.

Yes, thank you.

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe, maybe not. I understand revival to be winning the lost.

I understand winning the lost to be a result of revival. People can actually proclaim the Gospel when they are bitter or sinning in some other way. For God's true power to come down, His people need to be right with Him. And the verses about revival I've posted so far have been aimed at believers.

But we're not that far off.